We need to be able to boost Critical hit severity

[dam]

So, I thought about this.

 

 

We need a stat, whichever one, to increase critical hit severity.

That is, a stat which improves damage and duration for hits that scored a critical.

 

 

Want a character that lands more devastating and battle-changing abilities ?

Sacrifice a bit of dex, or some of your HP, et voila.

 

 

Want a wizard who's focused on pure CC and doesn't give a damn about damage ?

Keep his MIG at 10, pump points into whatever-stat-it-is-that-increases-crit-duration-and-damage, poof.

 

 

Possibly, this could be put on one of the "least useful" stats, like Resolve.

As in, you endure and endure, wait for your chance, and land a battle-ending spell or attack.

 

 

Thoughts ?

[Heijoushin]

I see what your idea is, but it's not really necessary to program in an entire new stat (especially since the design philosophy up till now has been to get rid of dump stats). Why not just add a new ability of two? "Gambler's luck -> Increases critical damage 10% of the time". The community has been asking for more abilities after all.

 

Also, I've never met a wizard who doesn't give a damn about damage

Edited December 11, 2017 by Heijoushin

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Technically speaking Perception already does this to a degree: each point of accuracy shifts the combat roll over one and gives you an additional percentage chance to get a critical hit. 

[Lamppost in Winter]

Also, I've never met a wizard who doesn't give a damn about damage

 

hurtful subtweet of my Int>Per>Dex>Mig>Res>Con crowd controller wizard

 

I think with Int and Mig (or Str or Res or....whatever) already adding to these effects it might be too much. Crits are already quite powerful anyway.

[dunehunter]

Am I the only one think critical attack is stronger than it is in POE1? The critical damage is nerfed from +50% to +25%, but it grants you +50% penetration, which have a high possibility to give your damage a x1.3 multiplier.

 

For these classes who have penetration bonus, which will most likely land in an overpenetration.

Edited December 12, 2017 by dunehunter

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Am I the only one think critical attack is stronger than it is in POE1? The critical damage is nerfed from +50% to +25%, but it grants you +50% penetration, which have a high possibility to give your damage a x1.3 multiplier.

 

The possibility really isn't that high.

 

You have to double the opponent's AR to get the overpenetration bonus, and in most cases that means you either 

 

1) Are using so many armor debuffs that the opponent's AR is reduced to near-zero and you'd get the overpenetration bonus regardless of the critical hit, or

 

2) Are using armor debuffs and very high-penetration weapons, which all do about 30% less damage than standard weapons -- compare the Greatsword and the Estoc -- so you're functionally pre-nerfing yourself.

 

 

The penetration bonus from critical hits is a nice bonus but if you're relying on criticals to penetrate or overpenetrate you're probably screwing up because criticals are unreliable.

 

Meanwhile, the reduction from 50% criticals to 25% criticals is functionally a huge nerf to the DPS value of Perception.

 

Think about it: you're trading +25% on every critical hit for +30% on some edge case critical hits in the rare situations where the armor values line up just right.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[thelee]

 

 

The penetration bonus from critical hits is a nice bonus but if you're relying on criticals to penetrate or overpenetrate you're probably screwing up because criticals are unreliable.

 

I don't think the case was being made that you rely on criticals to penetrate or overpenetrate, rather that because of the bonus penetrate on crits, you can get much better than +25% returns on your damage (if you were just on the cusp of penetration, e.g. 8 vs 9 (so far in my experience more likely than penetrate to overpenetrate), then going from .3 to 1.0 plus a crit damage multiplier is a huge boost in damage).

 

 

Meanwhile, the reduction from 50% criticals to 25% criticals is functionally a huge nerf to the DPS value of Perception.

 

currently the lack of ubiquitous grazes still gives perception a significant relevance, because the difference between a 0% effect and a 100% effect is huge (way huger than 100% to 125%). Of course, this will change depending on how grazes get reimplemented.

[dunehunter]

 

Am I the only one think critical attack is stronger than it is in POE1? The critical damage is nerfed from +50% to +25%, but it grants you +50% penetration, which have a high possibility to give your damage a x1.3 multiplier.

 

The possibility really isn't that high.

 

You have to double the opponent's AR to get the overpenetration bonus, and in most cases that means you either 

 

1) Are using so many armor debuffs that the opponent's AR is reduced to near-zero and you'd get the overpenetration bonus regardless of the critical hit, or

 

2) Are using armor debuffs and very high-penetration weapons, which all do about 30% less damage than standard weapons -- compare the Greatsword and the Estoc -- so you're functionally pre-nerfing yourself.

 

 

The penetration bonus from critical hits is a nice bonus but if you're relying on criticals to penetrate or overpenetrate you're probably screwing up because criticals are unreliable.

 

Meanwhile, the reduction from 50% criticals to 25% criticals is functionally a huge nerf to the DPS value of Perception.

 

Think about it: you're trading +25% on every critical hit for +30% on some edge case critical hits in the rare situations where the armor values line up just right.

 

 

Well even if not over penetration, critical attack help u go over their armour rate, from under penetration to same or higher than enemy's armor rate, which boost your damage from x0.3 to x1.0, which is huge too.

 

Edit: However, the critical damage nerf is big to Firearms and Arbalest, they only get penetration bonus, no damage bonus now

Edited December 12, 2017 by dunehunter

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

Meanwhile, the reduction from 50% criticals to 25% criticals is functionally a huge nerf to the DPS value of Perception.

 

currently the lack of ubiquitous grazes still gives perception a significant relevance, because the difference between a 0% effect and a 100% effect is huge (way huger than 100% to 125%). Of course, this will change depending on how grazes get reimplemented.

 

 

 

Yeah, right now, relatively speaking, a point of Per gives a 02.5% damage bonus, because no grazes and adding a 25% crit. That's still significantly lower than the benefit from Might or Dex, but it's in the same ballpark.

 

When grazes are added in in the next patch, though, it'll give -

50+(25/2)+(1*1.25) == 63.75 % expected value on each attack normally (Sawyer confirmed on SA that 100 = crit post-patch), then

50+(25/2)+(2*1.25) = 65%; then 65-- 63.75 = 1.25; 1.25/65 = 01.9 % DPS increase for that first point of Per.

 

If you increase the value of critical hits back up to 50% though that increases significantly:

50+(25/2)+(1*1.5) = 64 expected value normally

50+(25/2)+(2*1.5) == 65.5 == 1.5 difference; 1.5/64 = 02.3 % dps increase for that first point of per (still below might/dex, but much improved)

 

 

 

 

 

Well even if not over penetration, critical attack help u go over their armour rate, from under penetration to same or higher than enemy's armor rate, which boost your damage from x0.3 to x1.0, which is huge too.

 

 

 

Yeah, i t's situationally useful but it's one of those things where if you're in that situation you've probably made some other mistake first (not having a penetration debuff available, using the wrong weapon vs. that target, etc. )

 

We'll have to see how the more graduated penetration system plays into this too; remember next patch it's not .3 -> 1, it's .3 -> .5 -> .75 -> 1.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

Edit: However, the critical damage nerf is big to Firearms and Arbalest, they only get penetration bonus, no damage bonus now

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm not sure they really thought that through. Blunted criticals seems like pure fun-hating

[OrangePulp]

Whether +25% damage + 50% pen is enough, I don't think we really have enough data to draw a conclusion right now; might be that base criticals need to be buffed. However, I'm always wary of critical hit damage as a stat in games, because it's another multiplier that gets thrown into the mix. Criticals are already a multiplier by themselves, and when you add another on top, sometimes you start to see cases in games where crit as a stat overtakes everything else. And there are already abilities that are giving things like 50% hit to crit.

[dunehunter]

Whether +25% damage + 50% pen is enough, I don't think we really have enough data to draw a conclusion right now; might be that base criticals need to be buffed. However, I'm always wary of critical hit damage as a stat in games, because it's another multiplier that gets thrown into the mix. Criticals are already a multiplier by themselves, and when you add another on top, sometimes you start to see cases in games where crit as a stat overtakes everything else. And there are already abilities that are giving things like 50% hit to crit.

 

Critical damage is an additive as sneak attack...

[Raenvan]

Whether +25% damage + 50% pen is enough, I don't think we really have enough data to draw a conclusion right now; might be that base criticals need to be buffed. However, I'm always wary of critical hit damage as a stat in games, because it's another multiplier that gets thrown into the mix. Criticals are already a multiplier by themselves, and when you add another on top, sometimes you start to see cases in games where crit as a stat overtakes everything else. And there are already abilities that are giving things like 50% hit to crit.

 

The estimated effect of the +50% penetration bonus is +16.6% damage in average, assuming very simplified conditions. It gives a huge boost only if your original Penetration was low, which every damage dealer should avoid. In all other cases, you may have some chance to do +30% damage.

 

 

Yeah, right now, relatively speaking, a point of Per gives a 02.5% damage bonus, because no grazes and adding a 25% crit. That's still significantly lower than the benefit from Might or Dex, but it's in the same ballpark.

 

When grazes are added in in the next patch, though, it'll give -

50+(25/2)+(1*1.25) == 63.75 % expected value on each attack normally (Sawyer confirmed on SA that 100 = crit post-patch), then

50+(25/2)+(2*1.25) = 65%; then 65-- 63.75 = 1.25; 1.25/65 = 01.9 % DPS increase for that first point of Per.

 

If you increase the value of critical hits back up to 50% though that increases significantly:

50+(25/2)+(1*1.5) = 64 expected value normally

50+(25/2)+(2*1.5) == 65.5 == 1.5 difference; 1.5/64 = 02.3 % dps increase for that first point of per (still below might/dex, but much improved)

 

Following your arguments, criticals' damage bonus should be somewhere between 50% and 100% (the latter without penetration bonus) to get balance with Might/Dex.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Raenvan

[dam]

Technically speaking Perception already does this to a degree: each point of accuracy shifts the combat roll over one and gives you an additional percentage chance to get a critical hit. 

 

Perception increases the odds of landing a critical hit.

 

What I'm suggesting is an option for people who'd like to land more critical hits (which is already implemented via perception) and have them be more impactful (more damage, longer duration).

 

I see what your idea is, but it's not really necessary to program in an entire new stat (especially since the design philosophy up till now has been to get rid of dump stats). Why not just add a new ability of two? "Gambler's luck -> Increases critical damage 10% of the time". The community has been asking for more abilities after all.

 

Also, I've never met a wizard who doesn't give a damn about damage

 

I'm not going to answer the "wizard that doesn't care about damage" bit because that's been handled already

 

I'm not talking about introducing a new stat either, I'm actually saying the effect could be tied to one of the current dump stats.

2 birds, 1 stone really.

[ShakotanSolari]

Pillars 1 had a few weapons and items that increased crit damage, personally I prefer that method over linking it to an existing attribute. I think crit strength is fine as it is, and adding another layer to it would only create more balance issues and lead to the possibility of players abusing it.

Edited December 13, 2017 by ShakotanSolari

[AndreaColombo]

The 30% damage bonus from overpenetration is multiplicative. Basically the equivalent of +10 MIG. Not exactly a small increase

Edited December 13, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[Raenvan]

The 30% damage bonus from overpenetration is multiplicative. Basically the equivalent of +10 MIG. Not exactly a small increase

We should compare this optional 30% bonus to the normal 25% damage bonus of crits. And it's extremely situational: you need a critical hit, and a Penetration that falls between 133% and 200% of your opponent's AR. Constant +10 Might is much better, isn't it?

Edited December 13, 2017 by Raenvan

[Dr <3]

 

The 30% damage bonus from overpenetration is multiplicative. Basically the equivalent of +10 MIG. Not exactly a small increase

We should compare this optional 30% bonus to the normal 25% damage bonus of crits. And it's extremely situational: you need a critical hit, and a Penetration that falls between 133% and 200% of your opponent's AR. Constant +10 Might is much better, isn't it?

Atm yes, so you can just play an hellwaker with

low perception

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

 

The estimated effect of the +50% penetration bonus is +16.6% damage in average, assuming very simplified conditions. It gives a huge boost only if your original Penetration was low, which every damage dealer should avoid. In all other cases, you may have some chance to do +30% damage.

 

 

 

Following your arguments, criticals' damage bonus should be somewhere between 50% and 100% (the latter without penetration bonus) to get balance with Might/Dex.

 

 

Yeah, I feel like 50% is the floor and then past that it depends on whether or not that's the only thing Per does or if they add anything else to the stat, which there's still room to do depending on how they rework concentration and interrupt. 

 

 

Anyway the penetration sistem is beign reworked, so before change crit stike is better to waith how the new system will function

 

 

Yeah, I kinda want to see how things play out in the next patch before I say anything more than "increasing the crit benefit to 50% would be a good idea." 

 

Obsidian tends to use an iterative dev process where they tweak things a bit each patch till the balance gets juuuust right, so yeah, let's see how things turn out next patch.