The Little Things That Got "lost In Translation"

[Volourn]

Juh? the Sentinel is awesome! As powerful as either of the other two Jedi Classes.

[Drakron]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...

 

That was almost as funny when you said the NwN OC was good.

[Shadowstrider]

Juh? the Sentinel is awesome! As powerful as either of the other two Jedi Classes.

It definately is not, the immunities it recieves are nothing in comparison to the BAB of the warrior, nor the force goodies of the consular.

[Volourn]

SS:Weird... since I swear my Sentinel could whip my Consular's butt... who'd have a ahrd time hitting the ac of the Sentinel, and my Sentinel would always pass his ST vs. the force powers... Hmm.. It's one of the reasons my Sentinel laughed at opposing Jedis.. And, the warriors' bab isn't that much better to worry about nor is the Jump ability that impressive since it's really only good for the first round of combat for the most part except in those few cases where enmies are actually spread out.

[Drakron]

Sentinels needed more work, immunities that will show up one in a blue moon and one extra skill point for level does not make it for the loss of Guardian BAB progression and Consular extra force powers.

 

Personaly I would give Sentinels one extra force power at lv 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 since they sould get something like that if BioWare did not scrap their inicial force powers as skill based.

[Shadowstrider]

SS:Weird... since I swear my Sentinel could whip my Consular's butt... who'd have a ahrd time hitting the ac of the Sentinel, and my Sentinel would always pass his ST vs. the force powers... Hmm.. It's one of the reasons my Sentinel laughed at opposing Jedis.. And, the warriors' bab isn't that much better to worry about nor is the Jump ability that impressive since it's really only good for the first round of combat for the most part except in those few cases where enmies are actually spread out.

What does sentinel have to do with AC? I do not recall Sentinels getting an AC bonus related to their class.

 

As for your Sentinel saving, I do not think any of the foes in KotOR were consulars, most, if not all, of them were guardian/warrior jedi.

 

The fact that I had a scoundrel/consular who beat Malak without using a single healing potion, while the game was on hard, and Malak was the cheapest enemy I ever faced, shows me the consular's overpoweredness.

 

Sentinel's strength were skill points, and immunities. Skills were worthless, so immunities is all it has.

[Volourn]

SS: Skills were worthless? Hmm.. We must be playinga different KOTOR than. Skills came into place a lot..

 

And, immunities were handy when they wer ein use plus I didn't have to worry about certain items since I had those immunities covered.

 

Let's check out the Consular's advantages - more force powers, and more force points. Don't really need many force powers anyways as you only need 3-5 any way max, and as for force powers; they're a good boost; but in most instances I never ran out of force power with my Sentinel (or the Consular)anyways since it regenerates inbetween battles and the light sbare did more than enough damage to solve the issue. I used the stun, force wave, and heal force pwoers mostly with a throw lightsabre ocne and awhile. That's all I needed.

 

As for your uberness against malak; that doesn't prove anything of the sort. All it proves is you are a kewl powergamer who kicks SW butt! IO found my Sentinel having a much easier time as Malak tedned to reisst the most dangerous force powers anyways; and the Consular just didn't have the hit points to stand around too long. I mostd efinitely used more heal potions with him then i did with the Sentinel.

 

To each their own.

[Drakron]

As I said the advantage a Sentinel have is ONE skill point.

 

Also the way skill were implemented its simply a matter of having the right gear with the only exceptiion being Repair HK-47 and Persuade and since Persuade is a class skill for all Jedi classes ...

[Shadowstrider]

SS: Skills were worthless? Hmm.. We must be playinga different KOTOR than. Skills came into place a lot..

 

And, immunities were handy when they wer ein use plus I didn't have to worry about certain items since I had those immunities covered.

 

Let's check out the Consular's advantages - more force powers, and more force points. Don't really need many force powers anyways as you only need 3-5 any way max, and as for force powers; they're a good boost; but in most instances I never ran out of force power with my Sentinel (or the Consular)anyways since it regenerates inbetween battles and the light sbare did more than enough damage to solve the issue. I used the stun, force wave, and heal force pwoers mostly with a throw lightsabre ocne and awhile. That's all I needed.

 

As for your uberness against malak; that doesn't prove anything of the sort. All it proves is you are a kewl powergamer who kicks SW butt! IO found my Sentinel having a much easier time as Malak tedned to reisst the most dangerous force powers anyways; and the Consular just didn't have the hit points to stand around too long. I mostd efinitely used more heal potions with him then i did with the Sentinel.

 

To each their own.

The biggest advantage to the consular is not more points and powers. It is the access to the +3 DC to force powers. Uber Wisdom, uber charisma, and +3 to force DC, and few, if anyone could stand up to a consular.

 

The only force powers you really need are kill, drain, force wave, plague, or any other semi-affeective power. Repeatedly force wave Malak, if he fails his save vs. stun melee "teh biatch." The scoundrel's sneak attack, paired with critical strike made it the unstoppable combo.

 

Yes, volourn, if you thought skills were useful, we did play a different KotOR. Only thing thy were useful for was repairing HK47 to unlock his powers.

 

Locks? Bash them.

Computers? You get enough spikes to have 0 points.

Persuade? Force persuade is more effective.

 

Intelligence was the "dump stat" you forego to get more ability points, if you wanted to powergame.

[Volourn]

Uber charisma, and uber wisdom isn't a Consular trait as my Sentinel had pretty good numbers there as well. Admittingly, +3DC is useful though.

 

Locks = Bash. That's so crude.I prefer opening them nicely.

 

Computers = Spikes. I;d rather spend my credits on other stuff. In the early part of the game I was *always* running out of them.

 

Persuade = Force Persuade. More effective? In certain situations, yes. In certain situations, no. Soemtimes it was more trouble than it was worth.

 

Not all of us are into powergaming, sorry.

 

My point is not that the Sentinel is some super power; but that it isn't underpwoered. All 3 Jedi classes have soemthing to offer depending what you are looking for. I mostd efinitely didn't notice this vastly underpowered characetr class that you guys are speaking of. Hmm.. It was definitely as useful as the Consular from what I saw.

[Drakron]

Uber charisma, and uber wisdom isn't a Consular trait as my Sentinel had pretty good numbers there as well. Admittingly, +3DC is useful though

So what?

 

Any class can have high in those stats but Consular is the class that beneficts from it the most due to the fact they dont have to worry much about Str,Dex, Con and Int.

 

I could play a Guardian with high Wis and Cha and it would be pretty much like your sentinel, except for the Sentinel having a bit more FP.

 

Also a Consular side Mastery goes directly ibto their strenght, either 50 FP or +3 to Cha (or Wis, dont remenber).

 

Locks = Bash. That's so crude.I prefer opening them nicely.

 

That is why people call you a fanboy, you dont adress the issues and circle around then.

 

Most doors anc containers can be bashed, with makes security skill almost useless, if there were ways to solve quests around using security skill then it would be a valid skill but there are not, sames goes with sneak that is a complety pointless skill since the only place were it could be of use (Manaan Sith Base) they made it so we sould not even try.

 

Persuade = Force Persuade. More effective? In certain situations, yes. In certain situations, no. Soemtimes it was more trouble than it was worth.

Yes, persuade skill is useful but unfortunalty everyone can have Persuade skill when they became a Jedi.

 

Persuade was one of BioWare screw up with the skill system, they combined Diplomacy and Intimidate skills into the Persuade skill.

 

If they left then alone Guardians would get Intimidate and Consulars Diplomacy, with would make Guardians being unable to lower HK-47 price without DS points and Consulars being able to lower HK-47 price but without being able to Intimidate to as low a Guardian could.

 

That is without using the Force to lower the price.

 

Not all of us are into powergaming, sorry.

 

And what this about powergaming.

 

Face it,when you cannot refute arguments so you dance around the issues.

 

No wonder people call you a BioWare fanboy since NwN come out, KotOR is a good game but there are issues since its not perfect.

 

We bring those issues up so they learn about then and correct then, if those issues are a design faeture they still get feedback about expecific decisions.

 

My point is not that the Sentinel is some super power; but that it isn't underpwoered. All 3 Jedi classes have soemthing to offer depending what you are looking for. I mostd efinitely didn't notice this vastly underpowered characetr class that you guys are speaking of. Hmm.. It was definitely as useful as the Consular from what I saw

 

And MY and pretty much EVERYONE ELSE that bring those issues up point was that Sentinel was the weakest of all Jedi classes and as it stands there is no point in going the Sentinel class class as the others offer abilties that makes then better.

 

Is Sentinel unplayable?

 

No but as a class it cannot decide what it wants to be, its neither a skill heavy class since he does not get that many skill points compared to the others and it have no special abilities toed to skills.

 

Its not a defense class either because their saves table is the same as Guardian and their immunities come into play once in a blue moon.

 

Its not a fighter class due to the low BAB progression.

 

Its not a force class because he does not get more force powers that a Guardian.

 

Your entire argument is that Sentinel extar skill point makes it balanced with the weaker BAB progression and the weaker of force powers gain.

 

You could bring up their vitality and FP but its simply trading vitality for force points.

 

balanced with the others ... I and many others think not.

[Volourn]

OMG Is that the best you can do? Call me a fanboy becuase you are skirting the issue? Heck, I can list TONS of things I dislike about KOTOR. From the awful controls; to the lackadaiscal combat to the worst inevtory system of all time. Yet, because I disagree with you on what aspect of the game; I'm suddenly a fanboy? Ha.

 

The extra bab a Guardian get is so minor in the long run. I mean, at the end of the gamne, I was able to hit eveything and anything unless I rolled very low.

 

The extra force powers a Consualr is irrelavant as a Jedi only needs a handful of them to be worthwhile. All the others are extra cheese. More force points can be sueful inc ertain situations; but overall doens't make much of the difference since mana... oops.. force power regenrates over time anyways so at the start of every battle you are maxed out anyways.

 

As I said, I found the Sentinels' immunities useful as it's ahdny to be automatically immune to certains pecial attacks to save the use of certain force pwoers and/or items.

 

The skill point bonus isn't much; but it is sueful.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think you even know the definitions of over/under powered. Taht's cool. Yeah, there are others who feel that the Sentinel are as good as the other two Jedis (or even more so); but to you they are fanboys because they disagree with you on one issue. LMAO

 

I find that KOTOR is alrgely overrtaed (still a good game though) and have TONS of problems with it; but I'm a fanboy ebcause I don't think Sentinels are underpowered. What a joker you are. If you noticed, I ahven't danced around ANY issue as I pointed out them.

 

Unbalanced with the other Jedi Classes? I, and many others... think not.. See, two can play at that game.

 

And, oh, nice troll. B)

[Drakron]

Oh?

 

So I am a troll because I list the class problems and your only reply is "I think its fine" as you dance around the issues.

 

Your only defence is that "sentienels get one more skill point", I left immunities alone as I left Force Jump and Force Focus alone.

 

Besides anyone that visited NwN forums on game release time knows of your reputation as a fanboy since when a large number of people complained about NwN OC campain you did exactly what you did now, dance around the issues and proclaimed it was "fine".

 

Whatever ...

[Volourn]

Huh? I deal with every issue of the various Jedi classes. The fact you leave the immunities alone shows that youa ren't really comapring the classes. I have comapred all the clases with all their abilities - jump powers, immunities, multitude of force powers, etc.,e tc. yet youa dmit to ignoring some of them in your comparision. Weird.. Youa re dancing around the issues by calling ema fnaboy. Do you even know the definition of fnaboy? I have major problems with KOTOR, and have said so; but because I disagree with this one issue you take a fit and proclain "VOlourn is fanboy'. Just ebcause you say it; doesn't make it so. My complaints about the game which I have shared multiple times is evdience of that. I've had peo;ple accuse me of going overboard with my criticisms of the game yet becuase of one "This class is over/under powered" thing you overreact. ha. There are many things in KOTOR that are unbalanced. *cough* certain force powers *cough*

 

Continue to amuse me little troll. At least SS is making good points and is staying on issue. I calla true as you'd rather call others names then debate the issue so I decided to join in the name calling. If you can do it so can I.

 

Have fun.

[Shadowstrider]

Oh?

 

So I am a troll because I list the class problems and your only reply is "I think its fine" as you dance around the issues.

 

Your only defence is that "sentienels get one more skill point", I left immunities alone as I left Force Jump and Force Focus alone.

 

Besides anyone that visited NwN forums on game release time knows of your reputation as a fanboy since when a large number of people complained about NwN OC campain you did exactly what you did now, dance around the issues and proclaimed it was "fine".

 

Whatever ...

Tip when arguing with Volourn:

Choose your battles. Anyone can judge his arguements in this thread as flawed. Just make your points, and when he doesn't refute them with anything valid, let it die, or point back to your previous post.

[Drakron]

Yes ... I have been some time since I argue with him, since when I left NwN forum area.

 

And I was done about that issue anyway but I apreciate the gesture.

[Volourn]

Explain how pointing out that the Sentinels' immunities are useful is flawed logic espicially when one gives two reasons why.

 

Explain how the fact that the Consular's extra force powers, and force points are nice; but not absolutely neccessary due tot he fact only a handful of force powers are useful anyways and the fact the mana... err... force powers regenertae inbetween battles anyways.

 

Exaplin how me satting the few extra points that a Guardian receieves over a Sentinel isn't that a big deal since by the end of the game any Jedi cna pretty much hit anything's AC.

 

And, I guess I'm not the only "BIo fanboy" or person who's logic is "flawed" right? Check out this thread... I guess all those there who agree with me are fools too, huh? And, those who agree with you ar egeniuses?

 

http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html...hlight=Sentinel

 

But, hey, if one ones to trade silly flames with me and ignore the fact that what either of say isn't fact but opinion as everyone has different tastes, go right ahead. More power to ya.

[Shadowstrider]

Explain how pointing out that the Sentinels' immunities are useful is flawed logic espicially when one gives two reasons why.

 

Explain how the fact that the Consular's extra force powers, and force points are nice; but not absolutely neccessary due tot he fact only a handful of force powers are useful anyways and the fact the mana... err... force powers regenertae inbetween battles anyways.

 

Exaplin how me satting the few extra points that a Guardian receieves over a Sentinel isn't that a big deal since by the end of the game any Jedi cna pretty much hit anything's AC.

 

And, I guess I'm not the only "BIo fanboy" or person who's logic is "flawed" right? Check out this thread... I guess all those there who agree with me are fools too, huh? And, those who agree with you ar egeniuses?

 

http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html...hlight=Sentinel

 

But, hey, if one ones to trade silly flames with me and ignore the fact that what either of say isn't fact but opinion as everyone has different tastes, go right ahead. More power to ya.

What are you talking about?

 

I've only posted fact. YOU'RE the one who posted opinion:

 

Locks = Bash. That's so crude.I prefer opening them nicely.

 

Computers = Spikes. I;d rather spend my credits on other stuff. In the early part of the game I was *always* running out of them.

 

Who cares what you would prefer, or not? The fact is skills are almost worthless in KotOR, because you have workarounds like uber-bashing, and access to computer spikes out the anus. BioWare poorly balanced the skills, and the classes in the game.

 

Thus far you've said you're sentinel's AC was high... Sentinels get no AC bonus. Only Scoundrel's get a class-based AC bonus. Whose illogical?

 

The fact is the ONLY ability which sentinels get, which have any weight, are the immunities. The immunities do not weigh-in when compared to the consular's abilities, nor the guardian's feats and BAB.

 

http://shadow-network.net/swkotor

 

Go... look for yourself. I went to the trouble of outlining what, EXACTLY, classes get. Ignoring your opinion about skills(which is impossible for you, I know), Sentinel is the least effective of the jedi classes.

[Volourn]

First off, I'm not givin' your site (I think it is anyways) any more hits. No offence; but I go to enough sites and I need to limit myself to sites who don't think their OPINIONS are facts and actually beleive other than faking it as a joke.

 

As for the Sentinel, his immunities are very useful. What's funny; I'm not the only one who feels that way by experience in playing the game. The immunities are as useful then the few extra points of BAB that the Guardian gets (ooo) or the extra force powers of a Consular which is nice but as stated a billion times by everyone including you only a handful of powers are sueful so that in the long run doesn't make much of a didference. Same with the increased force points since it tends to regenerate inbetween battles and I have yet to see more than 3 instances where running out of force points in battle is even an issue to be concerned with.

 

As for the skills issue. I amdit those are opions; but your comeback is as much an opinion. You say they are worthless skills yet I 9and others as evidenced int hat thread) have found them to ber very sueful. I, for one, don't want to carry around computer spikes in my characetr's anus. Sorry.

 

Bioware screwed up a lot of things in this game. i'm not debating that - skills being amongst them. Some others really screwed up things in the game are the worst invetory system ever, horrible controls, and extrememly simple combat which rarely has any tatical edge to it at all. If you wnat complaints about KOTOR from me; I can basically go all day long. However, Sentinels being "underpowered" isn't one of those complaints. Sorry. And, though your enhanced DC modifier ofa Consular's force pwoers notwithsatnding, yo've given nothing but opinions and preferences to back up your claim.

 

As the linked thread sshows there are people on both sides of the issue. Some who claim all 3 Jedi classes are fine as they are (I'm on that side); those who think the Sentinel is too powerful (I disagree), or those who think it's underpowered (I disagree again).

 

It is your opinion that the Sentinel is the least effective of the Jedi classes. That, however, doesn't make it so as I have experienced another scenario. So have others go figure. Call me a Sentinel fnaboy if you wish; but the class works great.

 

 

Enjoy. :D

[Drakron]

I will adress Sentinel immunities before I close.

 

They do look nice on paper and in fact they sould fit well on a "defence jedi class" but the problem is dark jedi almost never use any of the powers sentinels are immune, I never seen a dark jedi use Fear, Grip (that sentinels are not immune) they ocasionaly do.

 

So due to design (since force powers are not random) the sentinel immunities dont take much role in gameplay.

[Volourn]

True. Immunities don't come into play as often as I would like them to; but they do once, and awhile which is a good thing. It's the same thing with the Consualr's increased force points. taht rarely enteres the pciture. Only in 3 battles during the game did I worry about running out of force points. And, the Guardian's jump ability is rarely handy - sometimes; but rarely.

 

And, oh, Strider, did you know that the Guardian gets 1 maybe 2 more feats at max (if one "cheats" and power games by witholding levels) than the Sentinel. Let's also not forget the fact that a 20th level Guardian (impossible in game) has a WHOOPING ( ) +5 better bab than a Guardian or Consular. Ooooooooooooooooooo That makes him that much more dangerous. And, the hit point, force points, and skills progressions basically cancel each other out, imo since all three classes have an edge there (though I admit the Sentinel gets cheated here as both hp and force points are a tad more important then skill points).Being immune totally to fear, stun, and paralysis is a big advantage. In the right circumsatnce that can be a light sbare. While the other classes are statues unable to move; the Sentinel cna go about his buisness nonchalantly.

 

Like i said, they are all very useful. they all have their advantages and disadvantages. We could argue all day about their strnegths, and weaknesses; but they sure look balalanced. And, not just to me; but to others as well. they must be fanboys and fools too because they agree on this one particualr issue. Heh.

 

 

Enjoy.

[Shadowstrider]

First off, I'm not givin' your site (I think it is anyways) any more hits. No offence; but I go to enough sites and I need to limit myself to sites who don't think their OPINIONS are facts and actually beleive other than faking it as a joke.

 

As for the Sentinel, his immunities are very useful. What's funny; I'm not the only one who feels that way by experience in playing the game. The immunities are as useful then the few extra points of BAB that the Guardian gets (ooo) or the extra force powers of a Consular which is nice but as stated a billion times by everyone including you only a handful of powers are sueful so that in the long run doesn't make much of a didference. Same with the increased force points since it tends to regenerate inbetween battles and I have yet to see more than 3 instances where running out of force points in battle is even an issue to be concerned with.

 

As for the skills issue. I amdit those are opions; but your comeback is as much an opinion. You say they are worthless skills yet I 9and others as evidenced int hat thread) have found them to ber very sueful. I, for one, don't want to carry around computer spikes in my characetr's anus. Sorry.

 

Bioware screwed up a lot of things in this game. i'm not debating that - skills being amongst them. Some others really screwed up things in the game are the worst invetory system ever, horrible controls, and extrememly simple combat which rarely has any tatical edge to it at all. If you wnat complaints about KOTOR from me; I can basically go all day long. However, Sentinels being "underpowered" isn't one of those complaints. Sorry. And, though your enhanced DC modifier ofa Consular's force pwoers notwithsatnding, yo've given nothing but opinions and preferences to back up your claim.

 

As the linked thread sshows there are people on both sides of the issue. Some who claim all 3 Jedi classes are fine as they are (I'm on that side); those who think the Sentinel is too powerful (I disagree), or those who think it's underpowered (I disagree again).

 

It is your opinion that the Sentinel is the least effective of the Jedi classes. That, however, doesn't make it so as I have experienced another scenario. So have others go figure. Call me a Sentinel fnaboy if you wish; but the class works great.

 

 

Enjoy. :D

Firstly, I only post my opinion on my site. The swkotor is a fact site, to help people who want to min/max powergame, find items, etc.

 

Secondly, who denied the Sentinel's immunities were not useful? Before you go on a tangent, realize what you're ranting about.

 

Thirdly, it is not opinion that skills are almost useless in KotOR, its fact. If you choose to use them, it doesn't change the fact that they're almost useless. The fact that you don't need to use skills to succesfully play through KotOR is what makes them useless. Just because you say it is opinion doesn't make it so.

 

Go ahead, try to play KotOR without spending any of your skill points. You don't need skills, therefore, they're useless. Not opinion, FACT.

 

Fourthly, who said Sentinels were underpowered? I said they weren't balanced. That is also fact.

 

Fifthly, my use of opinion, is scarce, if at all. I said I beat Malak without using a healing item. Thats not opinion, that is experience. Skills are almost worthless... again experience, and fact. I said that Sentinels are not balanced with the other jedi classes, fact. Where is this opinion, which I am using as the entire evidence and credentials of my posts?

 

Sixthly, why should I care what a bunch of people think about the sentinel? Opinion is moot. They're not underpowered, but they're not balanced with the other classes. Fact.

 

Actually, it is my opinion that the guardian is the least effective. Nice assumption, though. I think the sentinel is just the least powerful, not the least effective.

[Volourn]

Then what are we arguing about then? If you don't think it's under pwoered, and I don't think it's underpowered; what exactly is the issue?

[Shadowstrider]

True. Immunities don't come into play as often as I would like them to; but they do once, and awhile which is a good thing. It's the same thing with the Consualr's increased force points. taht rarely enteres the pciture. Only in 3 battles during the game did I worry about running out of force points. And, the Guardian's jump ability is rarely handy - sometimes; but rarely.

 

And, oh, Strider, did you know that the Guardian gets 1 maybe 2 more feats at max (if one "cheats" and power games by witholding levels) than the Sentinel. Let's also not forget the fact that a 20th level Guardian (impossible in game) has a WHOOPING ( ) +5 better bab than a Guardian or Consular. Ooooooooooooooooooo That makes him that much more dangerous. And, the hit point, force points, and skills progressions basically cancel each other out, imo since all three classes have an edge there (though I admit the Sentinel gets cheated here as both hp and force points are a tad more important then skill points).Being immune totally to fear, stun, and paralysis is a big advantage. In the right circumsatnce that can be a light sbare. While the other classes are statues unable to move; the Sentinel cna go about his buisness nonchalantly.

 

Like i said, they are all very useful. they all have their advantages and disadvantages. We could argue all day about their strnegths, and weaknesses; but they sure look balalanced. And, not just to me; but to others as well. they must be fanboys and fools too because they agree on this one particualr issue. Heh.

 

 

Enjoy.

2 feats is a big difference. Thats 2 ranks in an additional combat type.

 

5 BAB is 25% better hit chance.

[Shadowstrider]

Then what are we arguing about then? If you don't think it's under pwoered, and I don't think it's underpowered; what exactly is the issue?

The fact they're not balanced. Underpowered implies you cannot play through the game, because you lack the abilities. You can easily beat KotOR with a Sentinel, but they're still not balanced.