Rogue theory-crafting

[Braven]

I was thinking about a hybrid rogue who opens with a blunderbuss shot and then switches to saber/shield.

 

Question: Does penetrating shot work with that shield from Durgan’s Battery? The veiled thrust on critical hit.

 

Blunderbuss benefits a lot from DR-Bypass and if the shield does too, then the talent is an added bonus with no speed penatly in melee. Saber works well for reposite attacks and belongs to the same weapon focus group and blunderbus has the highest single hit damage, assuming you can reduce DR down to zero. With leadsplitter, penetrating shot, and ryona’s gloves, you can get 15 DR bypass. Add effigy bonus and 16 bypass is possible. Could make for quite the backstab. Or 12 DR bypass is probably good enough (no gloves or effigy)

 

Question 2: Does afflictions apply after all 6 projectiles hit or after each individual one? (For deathblows and debuff effects)

 

The idea is to switch between a couple guns to one-shot ranged casters with backstab or charm them. Then switch to a reposte-shield build for taking out the melees using though gloves that cause two afflictions to trigger deathrattle and Resolution saber for the high damage and draining effect to help heal up the grazes. Kind of talent heavy though.

 

Talents:

Weapon focus - ruffian

Penetrating shot

Aspirants

Sword/shield style

Superier deflection

Cautious attack

Backstab

Shadowing thing

Edited October 14, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Thrust of Tattered Veils works with Penetrating Shot and also Ryona's Vambraces and Effigy's Resentment: Devil of Caroc.

 

You should think about Cape of the Master Mystic and Nightshroud, too - in order to get more invisibility uses.

 

With a ranged weapon you need a lot more stealth than with a melee one to trigger Backstabs. The reason is that Backstabs will occur if you commanded the attack from stealth. It doesn't matter if you unstealth on the way. With a ranged weapon this is not possible because you have to get into the 2m range and then attack the target. For this you need a lot more stealth.

 

Then, with a melee weapon you will get two consecutive Backstabs when using auto-attacks (no matter if dual wielding or two hander or single handed). If you switch guns after the first shot you only get one Backstab shot (the first) - this maybe enough when using blunderbuss thought (especially with Silver Flash + Devine Mark on Deathblows). If you reload for a second one that works - but of course your dps drops like crazy.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Boeroer

[Braven]

Maybe just sneak attack is good enough with the blunderbuss. Casters are usually pretty weak. Extra talents would be nice to make the melee side better. Vulnerable attack for melee bypass and veterans for more healing.

 

My main issue with the high deflection rogue is that it does nothing to help kill off ranged attacks; particularly spell casters. I guess there is a good shield for that, though.

[Braven]

Oh yeah, forgot you can’t queue the ranged attack since it needs to be within 2 meters and it will just fire right away.

 

Thinking backstab is not worth the trouble. Sneak attack blunderbuss could be a good opener though. While You get two off with duel-wield, I think the total damage is still less. With a two-hander, it takes too long (with a low dex build)

Edited October 14, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

You can use Escape to warp to the squishies and attack them in melee.

 

With Godansthunyr + Barricade you can achieve Deathblows after the first strike (Blinding Strike and so on): offhand does blind, Godansthunyr stuns - the following auto-attacks are nearly always crits with Deathblows. Thrust oTV works with Deathblows, Merciless Hand and stuff, too.

[Boeroer]

I did a Tall Grass rogue and a Tidefall rogue with Backstab and it's pretty awesome if you don't mind the increased micro. Getting two initial attacks per encounter with +200% damage (Backstab always comes with Sneak - sometimes even +300% if the party manages to apply 2 afflictions before I unstealth) is great and certainly better than stupid Finishing Blow. It's not that great with guns though (as one might think it is when you see it on paper).

Edited October 14, 2017 by Boeroer

[Braven]

Hmm, that is pretty good. Escape is good anyway for the deflection early. I guess they get cut down quick enough with melee.

 

My thought was to rely mostly on those gloves in defiance bay for death blows when needed which cause 2 long lasting ailments on like 6 enemies. Seems like it would help the retailation attacks and applied quickly instead of having to hit each of them individually hoping for crits. That opens weapons for other enchamtments since the stun is not really needed now. Though the double damage type of hammers is really nice since we can’t just switch weapons without losing the shield. Stunning a caster could be nice just for the shield procs... I think that is like a 20 deflection debuff. Sadly, the shield hits first with full attacks.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Braven

[Braven]

Another question I have is: Does sneak attack and/or deathblows work with the spell fireball? If so, the rot gloves (or druid) could trigger AOE deathblows with spreading plague (and -20 or so to reflex) and then you could go to town with the 3xrest fireball spellbound items. While alone fireballs are not particularly powerful late game, with a 150% damage buff on an AOE spell, along with scion of flame, they could be pretty devestating. Could add in fire godlike too for deathblow retaliation. I think there is something like 10 or so fireballs possible from spellbound weapons (with wax to duplicate one of them). Finally, with adept evasion and a shield, the rogue could stand right in the middle of the fireball blast zone if needed.

 

The mail armor with that blinding fire attack would suit a fire rogue well too.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Every damaging spell works with Deathblows, but not with Sneak Attack (except DoT spells - they don't work with anything ). Touch of Rot itself works with Deathblows, too - at least the first part that deals immediate damage.

 

Deep Wounds works with all spells that do pierce or crush or slash damage - also AoE ones. Think of Overbearing Wave, Concussive Missiles, Twin Stones, Vile Thorns and so on.

 

I wrote about a rogue specialized on spell binding gear several times (but didn't write a build). Includes Flames of Faîr Rhian, Taluntain's Staff, Amulet of Summer Solstice, Sun Touched Mail, Bittercut, Animancer's Boots and so on.

 

If you duplicate Flames of Faîr Rhian and use Taluntain's Staff + Curoc's Brand you'll have 10 Fireballs per rest, yes. With the amulet + mail you'll have 6 Sunbeams per rest, too - which is neat because besides the damage it's a nice AoE blinding spell. An Swaddling Sheet + Deathblows + Depp Wounds is especially nice...

 

More info about rogue + spells can be found in my build "Sorcerer's Apprentice" in the build list.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Boeroer

[Braven]

Thanks for the info. I will look through your build for ideas.

 

I really like the sunbeams. The AOE is not that big, but blind is a huge debuff. It double benefite the rispote rogue with the -25 accuracy and deflection debuffs. Makes crits easier and targets reflects, which is easy to lower. Crits with high intelligence lasts will last well over 30 seconds.

 

Spreading plague and the AOEs spells work well together and kind of fill in the rogues main weakness of getting swarmed and not having an AOE answer.

 

Wonder if fire godlike retalation is viable. Deathblows effecting it is nice, but rogue endurance is not great. Would give another reason to get scion of flame and fits the fire theme. In theory, deathblows is better than the monk’s lashes for fire godlike retailation damage. Just seems really dangerous keeping a rogue under 50% endurance.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Is Deathblows better though?

 

Turning Wheel's + Lighning Strike's + Blood Testament's lashes are 60% burn + 25%  shock + 20% raw - multiplicative damage.

That means that a crit (eventually with Merciless Hand + Dungeon Delver), MIG bonus and Scion of Flame go into the lashes' damage calculation.

 

Deathblows adds +100% of base damage. There have to be two afflictions of course. 

Monks at 50% endurance always have 10 wounds...

 

I think monk is the winner here - at least with Battle Forged.

 

With max CON the rogue should do well enough though.

[Braven]

High DR favors the rogue since monk has 1.5x the DR with lashes. Crits help the monk more, but rogue is more likely to actually land the crit due to hit->crit and reckless (if it applies to the attack roll) and more likely to have a better hit rating in general. Might is more optional for rogue (though fireballs and healing and such benefit a lot from it)

 

60% tourning wheel assumes the monk doesn’t use any powers. Minimally the swift strikes take the occassional wound. Others would reduce this further at least temporarily while the rogues ability doesn’t lower the retailation. Afflictions are easy, even solo, with the spreading plague gloves which is fair since the monk’s calculation uses blood testament. Monk takes less micro management since there are no requirements needed.

 

Of course monk has the AOE retailation (works against ranged which is nice too) and larger endurance pool and better defenses which help get more hits in before tge character falls (rogues though have the option of riposte and retailtion equipment triggers deep wounds).

 

I agree monk is better overall for retailation and better under optimal situations (low DR, max wounds) for battle-forged.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Braven

[mosspit]

I created a build guide a while back which features a rogue riposte build with the Badgradr's Barricade. There are also others giving their thoughts on the idea of a retaliation based Rogue in as posts in the build thread. Might be worth taking a look.

[Braven]

Thanks mosspit. Currently I am thinking of a hybrid between the Yellow Flash and sorcerers apprentice concepts. Heavy armor, shield for survivalibilty and extra retailation damage from riposte combined with spell-bound equipment for some needed AOE damage and affliction.

 

My special spin is adding AOE spell damage to the mix.

 

Being slow with low dex and plate armor doesn’t matter if your actions are all limited use, high impact actions; it is not ideal for just auto attacking. So I thought about adding in the fireball sabers and the sunbeam items (not really desirable for other party member synergies anyway so no one is competeing if nit playing solo. Of course, AOE is great with soloing too).

 

With deathblows and high Might and high accuracy and a reflex debuff, fireballs actually do great AOE damage. A fireball has 30 average base damage. With deathblows, a critical hit (with plot talents), scion of flame, and 20 Might, will do (30 x 3.2) x 1.2 = 115.2 damage before DR. Hit 5 enemies, and we are inflicting over 500 damage from a single “fast cast” spell that can be repeated 6 or more times in a battle. With adept evasion, combined with high reflex from shield, and you can even include the rogue in the fireball area of effect and it will probably miss. The 6 sun beams do even more damage (base 35) and inflicts a long lasting blind, but with only a small AOE zone.

 

Of course scrolls are great too and allow basically unlimited super-spells for the toughest fights.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Braven

[mosspit]

Yeah that is an interesting concept. I am currently on a playthrough with a modified version of the Yellow Flash so my experience with the build is refreshed. It is not solo but it does have a reduced party size of 4 so the rogue has more opportunities to showcase her tanking ability.

 

From a dmg dealing perspective, it definitely could work. Added retaliation dmg from riposte on top of spell dmg synergy with deathblows makes for strong dmg output.

 

From a survivability aspect, that is where I have some doubts. This rogue should not have any issues with melee deflection targeting attacks. I have done the Roderick and Byrnlod bounties and she can handle multiple (I have seen 4 during Magran Priests bounty) melee attackers on her own with the occasional healing.

However, she is still susceptible to attacks from magical sources as there is very few abilities that enable the rogue to avoid/reduce incoming dmg. After all, riposte is actually a dps ability that does nothing for direct dmg mitigation. Couple with rogue's low Health multiplier, I think potions of Infused Vital Essence might be a necessity as there is a possibility of running out of health before enemies are killed.

 

I guess it depends how you gauge the success of a build? After all if things go south, there is always an option of Shadowing Beyond and disengaging to reset the battle should you be ok with that.

Edited October 16, 2017 by mosspit

[Braven]

Yeah, that is a main weakness of rogue in general; they can be blasted down. They do have the advantage of a really good anti-reflex attack ability. Combined with a shield, reflex shouldn’t be an issue at all. Fortitude is a problem that really requires both high con and might to mitigate, along with bears fortitude. The most powerful attacks target that defense. That leaves dex and int being the least important.

 

Monk and barbarian are so powerful because they not only have good retaliation abilities, but also ways to greatly boost their defenses and have large amounts of health. Those other defenses (fortitude in particular) are important for dealing with casters who are not effected by retaliation.

 

Monks can passively increase defenses by +18 with class abilities and barbarian has greater frenzy for +24 fortitude. Need-to-be-hit retalation builds always have max might and con greatly increasing fortitude and have a shield for reflex.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Braven

[mosspit]

Btw from what I saw on Dr <3's new Chanter build with regards to Boeroer's comments and the calculation corrections, not sure if Scion of Flames is multiplicative when considering it's effects with Fireball.

 

Nonetheless, the dmg should still be be pretty good.

Edited October 16, 2017 by mosspit

[Boeroer]

Scion of Flame and such are not multiplicative. I just double checked with a 1009-MIG-Aloth + Scion of FLame (in combat, not tavern). His Fireballs' hits all do damage that you would expect with an additive calculation (780 - 1092), not a multiplicative one (930 - 1302).

 

Aloths hits:

1038,2
867,9
847,6
1062,4

794

 

The red numbers were enough to prove it, so I stopped.

 

This gets supported when you look at his crits & grazes:

 

crits:

936,9

987,1

880,1

983,1

827,2

927,9

 

grazes:

1004,5

803,1

1001

866,1

 

(sorry for using commas instead of dots, I copy & pasted from my notes an calculations which are in europ. notation).

 

You can see that not only the MIG bonus is not multiplied with SoF, but also grazes and crit bonuses are not. So SoF seems to be a plain simple additive bonus of 20% - like all the others.

 

However, before writing stuff down I also got some numbers that were very slightly above the upper border (1093 or 1095) - but nothing near 1302. I guess internal rounding was the cause of that. We would have to ask MaxQuest how exactly this is calculated internally.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Boeroer

[Braven]

Oh, that is too bad. Thanks for the testing! I always thought it multiplied. Guess that makes sense given the interaction with firebrand is also additive.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Braven