Some Advise on Current Run

[mosspit]

Hey all,

 

So I figured I dig the brains of you guys to figure out how to improve my current 4man ToI PotD run.

 

Currently Im still lvl6 at Defiance Bay finishing up quests and getting prep to go to Stalwart.

 

My party setup is as follows with the approximate roles:

Barb (dmg sponge + offtank)

Rogue (offtank)

Druid (AoE Dmg, AoE CC)

Wizard (AoE CC)

 

As you can see, theres not much support options. Idea is to depend on CC to lockdown encounters.

 

I wanna check on you guys on any sort of synergy to be had with this party? So far I have the following:

- HoF and CW

- Grimoire Imprints to situational get priest buffs (Thank Boeroer!)

- Looking forward to getting to lvl7 and WM1 to get Ninagauth's Shadowflame, lvl9 (Relentless Storm) and lvl11 (HoF)

 

 

Just some disclaimer:

- Clearly this party is not well rounded. But I wanna see how far I can push this party

- If there are stat spread advise, I will consider in future runs if this one fails (highly likely to fail)

- Preferably to keep the classes as such

- No split pulling if possible. But if I had to choose between split pull and losing the run, I will choose split pull.

 

Also quick question, is the Vengeful Defeat attack the same as HoF?

 

Thanks!

[Boeroer]

What is the rogue doing exactly? I mean stats, items and all that stuff?

 

Vengeful Defeat is a weaker version of HoF. Judging from game description it should be the same minus the damage bonus - but when I used it extensively in a playthrough it seemed to have a smaller range of action and generating less hits than HoF does. Maybe that got changed, but I read nothing about it. But it was/is very good nonetheless - especially if you can abuse it with a knockout-revive-cycle. The "problem" with your party is that you have nobody who has a revive ability (besides scrolls). Second chance items are only 1/rest and it doesn't work to bring several of them and switch them out after encounter. You'll only get one use of second chance per rest - not matter how many items with second chance you pile up.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Boeroer

[Moneo]

The bad thing about Vengeful Defeat is that your character becomes injured after falling unconscious. I suppose, you cannot turn the injuries off on ToI. So, relying on Vengeful Defeats is not a good idea during playthrough on higher difficulties, just don't let the foes bring your characters down.

[Boeroer]

You can switch off Knockout Injuries in the game option on any difficulty setting, even PoTD. But not on ToI/Expert Mode.

 

I always switch them off because they are simply annoying and do nothing for me - it just destroys Vengeful Defeat as you pointed out. I do the same with gib effects. They make White Worms less useful and are silly anyway. Who explodes and leaves no corpse behind after getting hit by a medieval weapon? I mean besides some spirits and unstable constructs.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Boeroer

[Moneo]

I don't play on ToI and Expert, but keep this option turned on. It's realistic IMO and makes me to take care of my characters and don't let them go down. Even though, my variant of a barbarian, a Tidefall/Shod-in-faith/Sanguine plate one, is very tanky and sturdy since mid-game. He can be a little fragile during the beginning, but after he's packed in the artifacts, he's almost unkillable and isn't knocked out even on occasion. In order to train Ydwen's Redeemer and collect 5 resurrections, I strip my barb off and send him to tank an enemy with autoattack option "Passive". Then I resurrect him 5 times with scrolls. There is no other way to collect resurrections, normally he doesn't fall in battles So, Vengeful Defeat is totally useless talent for me.

 

Again, a barb IMO is a genocide machine, just keep him standing straight and swinging his weapon, and all foes around will die earlier than they get even an opportunity to knock him out. My barb in-game is called Attila, yeah, the Scourge of God one, that's an appropriate nickname for such a butcher.

[mosspit]

What is the rogue doing exactly? I mean stats, items and all that stuff?

heheheh

 

Well my rogue is shield wielder (Badgradr's Barricade). She is to be built more to tank by virtue of dmg avoidance, and then riposte with added dmg via deep wounds. Definitely not as a strong dps as a glass cannon rogue but I was curious how she will perform without Priest Support. I have done a similar build in a 6man ToI PotD previously. Hopefully CC provided by her teammates can offset her not so stellar defence (compared to other classes)

 

Her stats: M:12, C:17, D:10, P:16, I:7, R:16.

 

The rough idea is both Barb and Rogue is to have some sort of retaliation mechanics. Rogue is Riposte, Barb is built to have abysmal Res so she will chug flame potions and later take Barabaric Retaliation.

 

Vengeful Defeat is a weaker version of HoF. Judging from game description it should be the same minus the damage bonus - but when I used it extensively in a playthrough it seemed to have a smaller range of action and generating less hits than HoF does. Maybe that got changed, but I read nothing about it. But it was/is very good nonetheless - especially if you can abuse it with a knockout-revive-cycle. The "problem" with your party is that you have nobody who has a revive ability (besides scrolls). Second chance items are only 1/rest and it doesn't work to bring several of them and switch them out after encounter. You'll only get one use of second chance per rest - not matter how many items with second chance you pile up.

 

The bad thing about Vengeful Defeat is that your character becomes injured after falling unconscious. I suppose, you cannot turn the injuries off on ToI. So, relying on Vengeful Defeats is not a good idea during playthrough on higher difficulties, just don't let the foes bring your characters down.

Yes I wonder about Vengeful Defeat as I noticed that the description is ambiguous. And I don't wanna plan my build around consistent use of it. It is just that I wanna see if it is a good skill to use as a "hail mary". If my barb goes down, there goes majority of my ability to take dmg. And I notice that my Barb got to low End a little too often for my taste. Based on past experience, I got a rough gauge on how well my party can perform. Not getting the same confidence as compared to my previous playthroughs.

 

Anyways, yes so no Priests so no consistent way to use VD as a proper attack strat. It is more of doing more dmg as she goes down and hopefully thats enough for the teammates to mop up whatever that's remaining.

Edited October 6, 2017 by mosspit

[Moneo]

@mosspit

 

I suppose you are worrying too much because of the fact you are running your team without a priest. Man, this game is beatable solo with every class you are using atm, and you have 4-man squad. So, everything is passable.

 

The downside of going without a priest is that you don't have some buffs (like bless or dire blessing) and don't have some nice per-encounter debuffs like painful interdiction. But I suppose you can cope with it. The most powerful and useful priest spells, the "Prayer against XX" ones, are accessible via scrolls, so that's OK. A druid can substitute a priest with heals and buffs to some extent.

 

Don't worry about your barbarian. It's OK, that he is a bit fragile during the beginning of the game. Build high mig / high int barbarian, give him Tidefall+Sanguine Plate+Shod-in-faith+Berserker's belt, and since mid game, he'll be very tanky. Most of the time I don't even see how much health my barb has, 'cause he spends his time in frenzy, and he doesn't fall, that are his foes who fall .

Edited October 6, 2017 by Moneo

[Boeroer]

I like a Badgradr's Barricade rogue.

 

Now that I know your rogue I can think about another synergy... *makes Dr.-Evil-gesture*

 

And that is friendly fire spells which target reflex + Adept Evasion (+ Blaidh Golan when the spell causes prone or stun). Shield rogues can have one of the best reflex defenses in the game when it comes to such spells and stuff like Slicken + rogue (while the rogue tanks) are quite nice. Blaidh Golan will make sure that you always stand up first should you get grazed or hit by your friend's prone/stun spell. I guess also Fan of Flames and Fireball is quite cool if you also add some burn DR to the rogue.

[mosspit]

@mosspit

 

I suppose you are worrying too much because of the fact you are running your team without a priest. Man, this game is beatable solo with every class you are using atm, and you have 4-man squad. So, everything is passable.

 

The downside of going without a priest is that you don't have some buffs (like bless or dire blessing) and don't have some nice per-encounter debuffs like painful interdiction. But I suppose you can cope with it. The most powerful and useful priest spells, the "Prayer against XX" ones, are accessible via scrolls, so that's OK.

 

Don't worry about your barbarian. It's OK, that he is a bit fragile during the beginning of the game. Build high mig / high int barbarian, give him Tidefall+Sanguine Plate+Shod-in-faith+Berserker's belt, and since mid game, he'll be very tanky. Most of the time I don't even see how much health my barb has, 'cause he spends his time in frenzy, and he doesn't fall, that are his foes who fall .

Well not exactly. I have ran playthroughs with pure martial classes before. So I roughly know how it feels like. And I know others have soloed the game with all classes (I do use Wodjee's Rogue the Ultimate run for inspiration), but I am not those "others" with their skill level. I can more or less do playthroughs based on my own restrictions based on my personal knowledge of the game.

 

However, this time round. I might have hit some sort of skill/planning threshold based on my experience so far. Believe me if I was streamrolling every battle, I wouldnt be asking for advise. I am merely checking if anyone have some creative skill synergy that I have not thought of. Although I know the risks of ToI, that doesn't mean I don't wanna do my best to push the party through the game via new creative means.

 

Plus, Im bored

[Boeroer]

One side note: Frenzy from Sanguine Plate doesn't work with Berserker's Belt and Greater Frenzy. Just in case anyone is wondering.

 

I always give the Binding Rope to my barb (especially if I use a weapon like Hours of St. Rumbalt). The stuck affliction helps a lot to generate crits on the ones that hit you. And Barbaric Retaliation stacks with Binding Rope's stuck retaliation while other retaliations from items (other than Supper Plate) don't.

[mosspit]

I like a Badgradr's Barricade rogue.

 

Now that I know your rogue I can think about another synergy... *makes Dr.-Evil-gesture*

 

And that is friendly fire spells which target reflex + Adept Evasion (+ Blaidh Golan when the spell causes prone or stun). Shield rogues can have one of the best reflex defenses in the game when it comes to such spells and stuff like Slicken + rogue (while the rogue tanks) are quite nice. Blaidh Golan will make sure that you always stand up first should you get grazed or hit by your friend's prone/stun spell. I guess also Fan of Flames and Fireball is quite cool if you also add some burn DR to the rogue.

Oh yessss. I remembered my previous shield rogue can dance around Dragon Breaths. Let me think about it. Aila Braccia might also be situational viable.

 

Ultimately, I like both Barb and Rogue to have Ilfan Byrngar's Solace (on swap) and Little Savior, and another item source for Preservation. Especially rogue since her chances to get stun/prone is higher. And get +100 defence while lying on her behind

[Moneo]

 

Well not exactly. I have ran playthroughs with pure martial classes before. So I roughly know how it feels like. And I know others have soloed the game with all classes (I do use Wodjee's Rogue the Ultimate run for inspiration), but I am not those "others" with their skill level. I can more or less do playthroughs based on my own restrictions based on my personal knowledge of the game.

 

However, this time round. I might have hit some sort of skill/planning threshold based on my experience so far. Believe me if I was streamrolling every battle, I wouldnt be asking for advise. I am merely checking if anyone have some creative skill synergy that I have not thought of. Although I know the risks of ToI, that doesn't mean I don't wanna do my best to push the party through the game via new creative means.

 

Plus, Im bored

 

 

Well, playing PoE solo is not a matter of "skill" IMO. I think it's a matter of iron ass, red eyes and endless patience. Tactically it's based on luring and kiting. And C. LE, for example, in his guide gives an advise as sophisticated as totally stupid. He mentions, that monsters in PoE have their own health as long as endurance. Normally, this doesn't matter, 'cause when you knock out all of your foes in encounter, they are automatically dead. But when you are facing a tough foe solo, you can use such a tactics: kite your enemy and harm it, sooner or later it'll run out of health and die no matter how thick he is. I suppose I don't need to tell you, how silly and dull this is, killing foes in PoE via extinguishing their health.

 

So, solo playthroughs are IMO boring and tedious. That's why I prefer going full-party and powerplaying.

 

But nevertheless, *jedem das seine*.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Moneo

[mosspit]

One side note: Frenzy from Sanguine Plate doesn't work with Berserker's Belt and Greater Frenzy. Just in case anyone is wondering.

 

I always give the Binding Rope to my barb (especially if I use a weapon like Hours of St. Rumbalt). The stuck affliction helps a lot to generate crits on the ones that hit you. And Barbaric Retaliation stacks with Binding Rope's stuck retaliation while other retaliations from items (other than Supper Plate) don't.

Good to know about But binding rope and BR. I notice the suppression effects when I was playing my retaliation monk previous playthough. The retaliation effect is based on which is the item last worn. So if Hiro's Mantle was suppressed, unequip and equipping it will make it active and suppress Binding Rope. Or was it the other way round?

[Boeroer]

Yes,it's nice in theory. But don't rely on it too much because recently I experienced a lot of cases where preservation wasn't applied properly. A bit buggy I guess.

 

Aila Braccia only works on targeted spells (and those are not the ones that target reflex) - but if your rogue's defenses are high enough to provoke a graze when getting attacked by a Cleansing Flame and such then it's a good item. I don't know if Deathblows/Sneak/Deep Wounds get applied to the reflected attack? I guess not...

 

Another synergy with Riposte and rogue is raising defense against Disengagement Attacks via Fast Runner (+5), Graceful Retreat (+15) and an item (+12, all stack) and getting those bonuses on top of his already high defenses when running past enemies. This way you can quite safely provoke Disengagement Attacks which are likely to graze and miss which will then trigger Riposte.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Boeroer

[mosspit]

 

Well not exactly. I have ran playthroughs with pure martial classes before. So I roughly know how it feels like. And I know others have soloed the game with all classes (I do use Wodjee's Rogue the Ultimate run for inspiration), but I am not those "others" with their skill level. I can more or less do playthroughs based on my own restrictions based on my personal knowledge of the game.

 

However, this time round. I might have hit some sort of skill/planning threshold based on my experience so far. Believe me if I was streamrolling every battle, I wouldnt be asking for advise. I am merely checking if anyone have some creative skill synergy that I have not thought of. Although I know the risks of ToI, that doesn't mean I don't wanna do my best to push the party through the game via new creative means.

 

Plus, Im bored

 

Well, playing PoE solo is not a matter of "skill" IMO. I think it's a matter of iron ass, red eyes and endless patience. Tactically it's based on luring and kiting. And C. LE, for example, in his guide gives an advise as sophisticated as totally stupid. He mentions, that monsters in PoE have their own health as long as endurance. Normally, this doesn't matter, 'cause when you knock out all of your foes in encounter, they are automatically dead. But when you are facing a tough foe solo, you can use such a tactics: kite your enemy and harm it, sooner or later it'll run out of health and die no matter how thick he is. I suppose I don't need to tell you, how silly and dull this is, killing foes in PoE via expiring their health.

 

So, solo playthroughs are IMO boring and tedious. That's why I prefer going full-party and powerplaying.

 

But nevertheless, *jedem das seine*.

 

Erm to each his own.

 

Even if I look at others doing solo, that is not my objective here either. And I know the game is not balanced around solo play. But what about 5man, what about 4? I trying to find how small a party size I can go without luring or pulling tactics? And there is where I get alot of tension together with ToI mode, and it keep things interesting.

 

I already done a 5man Frozen Crown playthrough and the part that excites me the most is when I faced seemingly bad odds and manage work the party out of it. And its quite a nice feeling once I accomplished that.

 

I mean I am not bragging or whatever. I am just checking if anyone have any nice strategies or synergies I can make use of. Thats really the point of this thread.

Edited October 6, 2017 by mosspit

[mosspit]

Yes,it's nice in theory. But don't rely on it too much because recently I experienced a lot of cases where preservation wasn't applied properly. A bit buggy I guess.

 

Aila Braccia only works on targeted spells (and those are not the ones that target reflex) - but if your rogue's defenses are high enough to provoke a graze when getting attacked by a Cleansing Flame and such then it's a good item. I don't know if Deathblows/Sneak/Deep Wounds get applied to the reflected attack? I guess not...

 

Another synergy with Riposte and rogue is raising defense against Disengagement Attacks via Fast Runner (+5), Graceful Retreat (+15) and an item (+12, all stack) and getting those bonuses on top of his already high defenses when running past enemies. This way you can quite safely provoke Disengagement Attacks which are likely to graze and miss which will then trigger Riposte.

Oh good to know on the Preservation issue.... Damn hopefully it won't bug out at the wrong time.

 

And I think I remembered you mention about the Disengagement method before. Hmm... i dunno man. Don't you find engagement locks in this game a little iffy?

[Moneo]

@mosspit

 

I don't question your skills or experience

 

But after you've passed so much, you should understand that your current party is... let's say, not well-balanced. I wrote about team RPG combat roles in some other thread... Your party lacks a good buffer and healer, that's right. But it seems to me, that you are not looking for easy ways and are ready to suffer and overbear. And are ready for having enough patience through a boring gameplay.

 

If you want a cool synergy and a funny gameplay, just build your party around power-gaming core, such as pally-priest-wizard. What about your current party, I've already shared my experiece with barb, how to make him tanky and dealing a huge load of damage. Alas, I have very short experience with rogue and druid. Your wizard, on the other side, is the most versatile char in your squad, so you can make him a tank or even a melee DD, if you want. It depends on your palystyle, what do you prefer, and the exact circumstances of the battle.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Moneo

[mosspit]

@Moneo

 

Thanks for your input. I guess I will see if anyone else have anything creative to add based on my stated preferences.

Edited October 6, 2017 by mosspit

[AlexKidd]

For the first half of the game you're probably best served by making the druid (good starting deflection, hatchet+shield, defensive talents) and the wizard (multiple deflection buffs, draining effects) tank most of the hardest encounters.

You can switch off Knockout Injuries in the game option on any difficulty setting, even PoTD. But not on ToI/Expert Mode.

 

I always switch them off because they are simply annoying and do nothing for me - it just destroys Vengeful Defeat as you pointed out.

I feel you're giving up on one interesting aspect of the game, that makes you think twice about abandoning one of your doomed toons to their (temporary) death: without injuries it's a lot better to not waste heals or cc to keep one of your surrounded teammates from hitting the dust, knowing that their health will be alright for future encounters, and revive spells can bring them on your feet once enemies moved away from the corpse.

 

You can still have fun playing a vengeful martyr with injuries on, given how most of them don't nerf his damage output.

Injuries are also suppressed by the proper spell, or through a ring of Unshackling or a paladin Liberating Exhortation, quite funny if you ask me: I have this mental image of the zealous commander yelling at his dumb meatbag to get up for that last stand, before sending him to death once more.

 

Edited October 6, 2017 by AlexKidd

[Torm51]

For the first half of the game you're probably best served by making the druid (good starting deflection, hatchet+shield, defensive talents) and the wizard (multiple deflection buffs, draining effects) tank most of the hardest encounters.

 

You can switch off Knockout Injuries in the game option on any difficulty setting, even PoTD. But not on ToI/Expert Mode.

 

I always switch them off because they are simply annoying and do nothing for me - it just destroys Vengeful Defeat as you pointed out.

I feel you're giving up on one interesting aspect of the game, that makes you think twice about abandoning one of your doomed toons to their (temporary) death: without injuries it's a lot better to not waste heals or cc to keep one of your surrounded teammates from hitting the dust, knowing that their health will be alright for future encounters, and revive spells can bring them on your feet once enemies moved away from the corpse.

 

You can still have fun playing a vengeful martyr with injuries on, given how most of them don't nerf his damage output.

Injuries are also suppressed by the proper spell, or through a ring of Unshackling or a paladin Liberating Exhortation, quite funny if you ask me: I have this mental image of the zealous commander yelling at his dumb meatbag to get up for that last stand, before sending him to death once more.

 

I was about to say the same exact thing lol

[Boeroer]

Funny that an injury is considered a "hostile effect".

 

I seldomly go down because I usually make heavy use of self healing and seldomly use squishies - so it doesn't make a big difference for me. But when I want to cheese out something like Vengeful Defeat I can't be bothered with those "realistic" hinderances.

[mosspit]

@AlexKidd

 

For some reason, seeing injuries being suppressed made me laugh in real life. Maybe its because I not thought of it. Maybe cose it seems ridiculous. Probably cose its ridiculous I nv thought of it.

 

Anyways, yeah my druid and wizard has started off quite tanky. Druid is a boar so there is regen, wizard has harden veil and lenegrath displaced image. All 4 has shield on swap and 3 out of 4 have weapon and shield talents.

[Torm51]

@AlexKidd

 

For some reason, seeing injuries being suppressed made me laugh in real life. Maybe its because I not thought of it. Maybe cose it seems ridiculous. Probably cose its ridiculous I nv thought of it.

 

Anyways, yeah my druid and wizard has started off quite tanky. Druid is a boar so there is regen, wizard has harden veil and lenegrath displaced image. All 4 has shield on swap and 3 out of 4 have weapon and shield talents.

I do not think its ridiculous and its perfect for the flavor of the class.  As a former non commissioned officer I was in a situation where I had to tell a guy to push through although he was hurt.  That's what Liberating Exhortation is.  The Paladin is commanding his allies to push through whatever affliction is hindering them.  I got good results in my situation.  Granted the guy didn't have a compound fracture or a severed limb or anything like that but he was shaken up and had a torn meniscus (we found out later).

 

Ya for some afflictions its a stretch but its a fantasy  game

Edited October 6, 2017 by Torm51

[mosspit]

Well, the ridiculous aspect was aimed at Suppress Affliction affecting Knockout Injuries. Never did cross my mind.

 

I did not intend to underestimate the will of men.

[Torm51]

Well, the ridiculous aspect was aimed at Suppress Affliction affecting Knockout Injuries. Never did cross my mind.

 

I did not intend to underestimate the will of men.

Absolutely not my friend!  I guess you just peaked my thoughts on why I am attracted to the leader type classes

Edited October 6, 2017 by Torm51