Chanter as main tank?

[ErgonomicCat]

So, I'm diving back in to PoE after completely forgetting it existed. Previously, I played very little of the game, so I'm basically starting from scratch.

 

Im trying to figure my party. I'm going to play on the level below PotD. And I'm wondering if a chanter main tank is viable. The fact that they can chant in heavy armor seems really nice, but how reasonable is it?

 

If it's doable, I assume focusing on Might, Int, Per, Res? What kind of setup should I plan for?

[Gromnir]

it is actual difficult to build a bad chanter tank.  

 

people overthink attributes.  poe attributes are less important in poe than in many other crpgs.  sure, attributes affect many aspects of your character, but you can build with a wide array o' attribute spreads and still be effective.  nevertheless, am gonna note how for a chanter tank intelligence and resolve is most important attributes, with might being worth raising as well... but for dialogue reasons, we prefer to have a higher perception and will sacrifice a bit of might to boost perception.  dex is a potential dump attribute.

 

essential tank talents is as follows: weapon & shield and veteran's recovery.

 

*shrug*

 

for extra tankiness, take superior deflection, ancient memory, beloved spirits and bear's endurance.  maybe cautious attack?  wound binding? 

 

folks will give you all kinda advice 'bout best chants and invocations, but am gonna suggest ignoring such recommendations.  is an urge to try and build the best ______ or a proper _______.  such goals is a mistake.  pillars' greatest strength as a game is the flexibility it offers players.  go ahead and pick chants and invocations which sound like they are fun 'cause regardless o' what you pick, you will be effective. why limit yourself to perceived best builds?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

Chanter tank is absolutely viable.

 

Despite Gromnir's advice ( ): pick The Dragon Thrashed as only chant. Use Veteran's Recovery and also Ancient Memory and Beloved Spirits as well as Sword & Shield Style and other defensive talents. Pair this with high MIG, PER and INT and you everything will be awesome. Weapon damage will be puny of course, but who cares if you can burn & slash everything just by standing around?

Edited June 29, 2017 by Boeroer

[Torm51]

You know Boeroer and many others have tested builds for chanters on all difficulties and ya they can tank. Personally I find them intolerable at the start of the game as tanks. They have high deflection but low health. So I have to rest too much for my taste. This is especially true on PoTD as at the start of the game it's hard to distance yourself out of the hit rolls (meaning you can have enough deflection to get mostly grazes and some hits but you'll still take hits).

Edited June 29, 2017 by Torm51

[Boeroer]

That can be a problem in the early game with PotD. If your chanter is not only the main tank but also the only one.

But in the early game you have to rest a lot anyways if you have two casters with you.

 

However, on Hard this shouldn't be too much of a problem either.

 

By the way: use the paladin for healing mostly, not Durance. Use Durance primarily for buffing.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Boeroer

[Livegood118]

If you're using a Chanter tank on POTD it's probably best to set your attributes more defensively in the beginning and then once you get better items switch to a more offensive build focused around the Dragon Thrashed.

[Gromnir]

You know Boeroer and many others have tested builds for chanters on all difficulties and ya they can tank. Personally I find them intolerable at the start of the game as tanks. They have high deflection but low health. So I have to rest too much for my taste. This is especially true on PoTD as at the start of the game it's hard to distance yourself out of the hit rolls (meaning you can have enough deflection to get mostly grazes and some hits but you'll still take hits).

 

a simple solution for the arguable early tank frailty of chanters is to make sure eder is in your party as the main tank during earliest portions of the game.  problem solved. also, as chanters benefit so little from dex (one o' obsidian's two most glaring continuing poe class mechanics blunders) a paucity o' health can be balanced a bit by pumping constitution at the expense of dex. 

 

our problem with many o' the optimized (or niche) builds is that they don't work as advertised for many/most players.  far too many suggested optimizations is having much in common with ie game dual-class characters. oh sure, such ideal builds is fantabulous for a player who has completed poe dozens of times, likely at potd difficulty, but many such builds is either relative weak at levels ___ through ____, or they depend on specific gear, or they presuppose rather comprehensive knowledge o' class synergies and/or fine-tuned experience with enemy ai/encounter design.  attempting to optimize a character tends to build in shortcomings which need be countered in some way.  such gameplay gymnastics has always struck us as unnecessary and often results in a ironic diminished overall efficacy.   

 

for somebody "starting from scratch," as is the genesis poster, am once again gonna recommend steering away from any kinda optimized build.  you are doing self a double kinda disservice by attempting to find the right/best builds.  not only will such builds frequent underperform when played by folks with low-to-moderate poe experience, but relying on such advice often results in a missed opportunity o' finding unique builds which has gone largely unnoticed by the optimizers. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 29, 2017 by Gromnir

[ErgonomicCat]

That can be a problem in the early game with PotD. If your chanter is not only the main tank but also the only one.

But in the early game you have to rest a lot anyways if you have two casters with you.

However, on Hard this shouldn't be too much of a problem either.

By the way: use the paladin for healing mostly, not Durance. Use Durance primarily for buffing.

I'm not starting at PotD. I'll likely restart there at some point, because that's my style.

 

My plan is to have a druid off tank as well, so I feel pretty comfortable with the advice above. Thanks,

[Torm51]

 

You know Boeroer and many others have tested builds for chanters on all difficulties and ya they can tank. Personally I find them intolerable at the start of the game as tanks. They have high deflection but low health. So I have to rest too much for my taste. This is especially true on PoTD as at the start of the game it's hard to distance yourself out of the hit rolls (meaning you can have enough deflection to get mostly grazes and some hits but you'll still take hits).

 

a simple solution for the arguable early tank frailty of chanters is to make sure eder is in your party as the main tank during earliest portions of the game.  problem solved. also, as chanters benefit so little from dex (one o' obsidian's two most glaring continuing poe class mechanics blunders) a paucity o' health can be balanced a bit by pumping constitution at the expense of dex. 

 

our problem with many o' the optimized (or niche) builds is that they don't work as advertised for many/most players.  far too many suggested optimizations is having much in common with ie game dual-class characters. oh sure, such ideal builds is fantabulous for a player who has completed poe dozens of times, likely at potd difficulty, but many such builds is either relative weak at levels ___ through ____, or they depend on specific gear, or they presuppose rather comprehensive knowledge o' class synergies and/or fine-tuned experience with enemy ai/encounter design.  attempting to optimize a character tends to build in shortcomings which need be countered in some way.  such gameplay gymnastics has always struck us as unnecessary and often results in a ironic diminished overall efficacy.   

 

for somebody "starting from scratch," as is the genesis poster, am once again gonna recommend steering away from any kinda optimized build.  you are doing self a double kinda disservice by attempting to find the right/best builds.  not only will such builds frequent underperform when played by folks with low-to-moderate poe experience, but relying on such advice often results in a missed opportunity o' finding unique builds which has gone largely unnoticed by the optimizers. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Agree with 99.9% of what you said my friend.  The only thing I dont really  agree with is that having Eder as a "Main Tank" or any other character (coming from a guy who universally loves paladins and tanking, fighters too) is largeley irrelevant if you place the chanter on the front line.  There is no aggro.  They AI sees lower Health/HP and will swing at the chanter.  You can use door ways obviously but if you are specing the chanter for tanking he wont have ranged efficiency.  I guess you could start him at range and respec (I just hate respecing personnel thing lol

 

 

 

That can be a problem in the early game with PotD. If your chanter is not only the main tank but also the only one.

But in the early game you have to rest a lot anyways if you have two casters with you.

However, on Hard this shouldn't be too much of a problem either.

By the way: use the paladin for healing mostly, not Durance. Use Durance primarily for buffing.

I'm not starting at PotD. I'll likely restart there at some point, because that's my style.

 

My plan is to have a druid off tank as well, so I feel pretty comfortable with the advice above. Thanks,

 

Cool man Boer and Gromnir give sage advice!  I was just putting in my two cents on the chanter.  Cool thing about the game is you can make most things work

[Boeroer]

I agree that a lot of my builds are not necessarily great for beginners. Some of them might be, but most of the time I just want to present something interesting, entertaining and unique (that works), not something foolproof. 

 

Having said that, I think a Dragon Thrashed chanter tank is relatively foolproof. Tankyness combined with great AoE damage - you can't go wrong with that. Even before lvl 9 you can heal in an AoE with Ancient Memory + Beloved Spirits and deal ok raw damage via Winds of Death or raise party's fortitude/reflex/will defenses by 10 and move speed by 1 which is great, too.

 

If you want to make sure that Edér also gets targeted, you can put him in lighter armor and use a dual wieding setup (great for Knockdown and Charge anyway) or use a two hander. His Constant + Rapid Recovery, stacked with the chanter's Ancient Memory + Beloved Spirits will make him sturdy enough even thugh he has less deflection and also less DR.

Different enemies have different priorities. Some like to attack low DR (archers), some go for low deflection (barbs) and so on.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Boeroer

[Torm51]

oh ya its been a while since I have Eder as a sword and shield tank.  Fighters with disciplined barrage and weapon mastery just hit really damn hard.  I love them.  I also love knockdown.  I think they are great against high deflection enemies.  And ya its a perfect way to make Eder damage in the early game instead of the more frail chanter.  Like you said that tank chanter really comes into his own around lvl 9 with great damage by just standing around lol

Edited June 29, 2017 by Torm51

[Gromnir]

oh ya its been a while since I have Eder as a sword and shield tank.  Fighters with disciplined barrage and weapon mastery just hit really damn hard.  I love them.  I also love knockdown.  I think they are great against high deflection enemies.  And ya its a perfect way to make Eder damage in the early game instead of the more frail chanter.  Like you said that tank chanter really comes into his own around lvl 9 with great damage by just standing around lol

is kinda an example o' what am talking 'bout.  a tank which is initial pretty darn mediocre in a tanking role, becomes genuine effective and superlative worthy 'round level 9.

 

base game only took you to level 12. 

 

...

 

before level 9 you got a kinda frankenstein character who is adding value in support, but less so as a tank and you is waiting for last 1/4 of the base game to be worth the party slot.  as you noted 'bove, the chanter has less health than other tanky classes, and this build in particular eschews resolve more than most tanks, which is less important later in the game, but more so in the early chapters.  winds o' death is swell, but ain't gonna make up for your lack o' meaningful offensive contribution.  

 

is the ie game dual-class conundrum, yes?

 

nothing wrong with building a character which ain't pulling its weight 'til level 9.  is nifty to have a superpowered build after a couple dozen hours of gameplay, but poe has a relative harsh learning curve compared to many crpgs.  for a new or returning player, we recommend avoiding the "comes into his own" kinda stuff.

 

last we will say on the matter.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 29, 2017 by Gromnir

[Boeroer]

I wouldn't say a chanter doesn't pull its weight 'till level 9. He has the phantom which trivializes most early game fights, he has White Worms which can be used with chokepoints and can be a very powerful tool in fights with many enemies and he has the paralyzing cone which is also very good. All those come on top of his AoE regeneration healing and his damaging or supporting chants.

 

In my opinion it is ALWAYS better to have a frontliner who trades a bit of tankyness for more overall usefulness instead of having one supertank who can do nothing but survive. In a full party that is. Doesn't matter if beginner or veteran.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Boeroer

[Torm51]

Agreed. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but I've been kind of feeling like that about my Paladins. Not truly a monster until sacred immolation. Unless he's a darcozzi with inspiring lib. But I guess the aura, lay on hands and burst ability to kill phantoms in the early game is good...plus obviously being the hardest target in the group.

[Boeroer]

Yes. At least paladins will give support even if they are build superdefensively.

[JerekKruger]

Since you're not planning on playing on PotD (which, given this is basically your first playthrough I think I'd a wide decision) if definitely agree with Gromnir's advice to not worry too much and go with what appeals to you. Hens entirely right about attributes not being anywhere near as important in PoE as they are in other CRPGs (which I view as a great thing as I hate min-maxing).

 

That said, I do think Boeroer's Dragon Thrashed build is fairly new player friendly. Just treat yourself as an off tank in the early game and enjoy the wonder that is Dragon Thrashed when you get it. You'll still do good work with Winds of Death and the phantom summon before that.

[JerekKruger]

Also remember that you can always respec, so you can build one way then change when you reach, say, level 9.

[rheingold]

Chanters are excellent tanks even at low levels. Just take 12 or 14 con and use whispers of yenwood. It's actually much easier to make a chanter tank than a paladin, mainly because you can focus on taking all the defensive abilities and talents without harming the build at all. With any other class it becomes a compromise, they generally have other talents/abilities they need.

I find 16 might, 16 Int, 12 con and 14 resolve works awesomely from a defensive and roleplaying point of view.