Levels

[Frosty_V2.1]

In KotOR I felt 20 was too much but more because of the pacing of the game, I understand who the PC was helped a heckavalot and some things like NPC leveling about the same as you are expected for gameplay but it still felt too fast and easy there.

 

I can live with 30 though since there look to be more classes available and if they make the combat more challenging to match (though I still can't really see tactics coming into play).

[Volourn]

Levels are irrelevant. 10, 20, 30, 50, 100. All irrelevant.

[EnspyroN]

skillcap 100? lol.. but then again maybe you advance levels faster or something. Why should there be a skill cap anyway?

[bl00dyw1zard]

Personally i though 20 was WAY too much in the original game. KOTOR should have been balanced to end around level 15 (Darth Vader is level 17), which would have been perfectly within reasonable limits without infringing the setting.

 

It was bad enought to have Raven himself be as powerful as Yoda in the game, but the fact that each party member was just as poweful, well, that was asking a tad too much really, it completely broke the game immersion.

 

I can't beleive you people would like to have 30 levels, let alone 50, bunch of lame power hungry munchkins...

<_<

dude...the level only help you get force powers and points and such....it doesnt exactly determine your strength. For example you can be level 100 with ALL the force powers but if your wisdom and/or charisma are high enough you wouldnt be all that great in using the force.....just a though, just a thoughy

[Enoch]

Personally i though 20 was WAY too much in the original game. KOTOR should have been balanced to end around level 15 (Darth Vader is level 17), which would have been perfectly within reasonable limits without infringing the setting.

 

It was bad enought to have Raven himself be as powerful as Yoda in the game, but the fact that each party member was just as poweful, well, that was asking a tad too much really, it completely broke the game immersion.

 

I can't beleive you people would like to have 30 levels, let alone 50, bunch of lame power hungry munchkins...

<_<

That's the most sensible thing I've read all day.

 

Being able to destroy everything in your path might be fun for a little while, but it's nothing compared to actually having something to be afraid of.

 

And even if you get opponents who can challenge you at level 15+, the combat is no fun because it's such a crapshoot. The first person to fail a saving throw loses, and everything else is irrelevant.

[Opus131]

Remember, even though KOTOR is based on the D20 game, it doesn't model it exactly. Therefore, if translated to KOTOR terms, Yoda and Vader might be of a significantly higher level.

 

Or at least that's how I rationalize it.

If the level of power i wielded at the end of the game was anything to go by, i think it translated pretty damn well... B)

[EnspyroN]

Personally i though 20 was WAY too much in the original game. KOTOR should have been balanced to end around level 15 (Darth Vader is level 17), which would have been perfectly within reasonable limits without infringing the setting.

 

It was bad enought to have Raven himself be as powerful as Yoda in the game, but the fact that each party member was just as poweful, well, that was asking a tad too much really, it completely broke the game immersion.

 

I can't beleive you people would like to have 30 levels, let alone 50, bunch of lame power hungry munchkins...

<_<

I don't think it's bad that Revan is as powerful as Yoda?? If you look into the history of Revan you'd see that he has gone trough alot and it would make sense if hes very powerful.

 

I mean, how can you tell that vader would kick Revan's ass? Revan would win if you ask me . Also find he looks cooler in the cutscene where Bastilla attacks him. (or was about to attack) You cannot tell.

 

I usually dislike caps... because it's a limit to the game and I don't like limits.

[Quiquag]

There really shouldnt be any caps...you should just be able to level up as long as there are levels to play in the game. It's disappointing to say the least when you know you still have a few hours of game play left and you have already reached a cap on your character. Caps don't give a lot of freedom to a game, they hinder it.

[Opus131]

I don't think it's bad that Revan is as powerful as Yoda?? If you look into the history of Revan you'd see that he has gone trough alot and it would make sense if hes very powerful.

 

Yoda is 900 years old, exscuse me if i find the fact Revan jumped from level 1 to level 20 in a few weeks a little distrupting to the immersion of the setting. The fact that Juhani and Jolee were just as powerful as you were didn't help either, how many Yoda-like characters do you want ?!?

 

I mean, how can you tell that vader would kick Revan's ass? Revan would win if you ask me .

 

I'm not complaining about Revan being stronger then Darth Vader, i'm complaining about the fact Revan could knock Darth Vader out with a glance, THAT'S a little extreme if you ask me.

 

I usually dislike caps... because it's a limit to the game and I don't like limits.

 

Then do not allow an insane amount of XP for the person to reatch the cap.

 

The cap wasn't the problem, they simply shouln't have given you the possibility to get anything near it.

 

Bioware simply made the game so casual player friendly they just loaded KOTOR with so many XPs that even the biggest n00b could reatch the cap without much of a sweat, which in turn made the game incredibly easy for the reat of us.

 

They did the same thing with the original Baldur's Gate (which FYI was much longer then KOTOR and yet had a cap set at level , and it's one of the things i hate the most about their games.

[sniggy]

Bioware simply made the game so casual player friendly they just loaded KOTOR with so many XPs that even the biggest n00b could reatch the cap without much of a sweat, which in turn made the game incredibly easy for the reat of us.

maybe difficulty levels would help?

 

padawan

 

jedi knight

 

jedi master

 

that type of thing?

[Opus131]

Bioware simply made the game so casual player friendly they just loaded KOTOR with so many XPs that even the biggest n00b could reatch the cap without much of a sweat, which in turn made the game incredibly easy for the reat of us.

maybe difficulty levels would help?

 

padawan

 

jedi knight

 

jedi master

 

that type of thing?

It's amazing how the simple concept of a difficoulty bar has managed to elude Bioware since the original Baldur's Gate (which was also incredibly easy, and loaded with XPs).

 

But even then, having an extra difficoulty setting would only buff the hit points, damage and saving throws of your opponets, making the game more fustrating rather then challenging.

 

I would prefer if they added a balanced strategic element to each encounter, creating challenge throught design rather then simply making the enemies stronger (which wouldn't make any sense).

 

Sadly, i doubt it'll ever happen...

[Lord Loec]

I think there would be 40 levels as in 20 for your normal class and 20 for your prestige class so it would still follow D20 in some way. Rember prestige class levels are treated differently than normal class levels.

[Opus131]

I think there would be 40 levels as in 20 for your normal class and 20 for your prestige class so it would still follow D20 in some way.  Rember prestige class levels are treated differently than normal class levels.

Considering this game is going to be about the lenght of the original game, how fast is all this leveling going to be ?!? Will we ever be able to roleplay a little beetween leveling ?!?

[Enoch]

I think there would be 40 levels as in 20 for your normal class and 20 for your prestige class so it would still follow D20 in some way. Rember prestige class levels are treated differently than normal class levels.

I'd guess it's more likely that you can start leveling in the PrCs at about the time you start to get the third-tier force powers (a.k.a. level 13, or the point at which you become invincible). If they're smart, they'll set a total level cap somewhere around 25 or 30, but not put enough XP in the game for you to even come close to that.

[Althernai]

I can't see how levels will matter in KoTOR2 unless they go out of their way to improve the quality of enemy AI. The problem was that the only fight in the game that was even remotely challenging for any character that was not intentionally messed up was Malak (well, and maybe some of the early ones on Taris if you hold off on leveling up -- but again, that is intentionally keeping your character weak).

 

If they're smart, they'll set a total level cap somewhere around 25 or 30, but not put enough XP in the game for you to even come close to that.

 

How is that smart? First, it wastes developer time and computer space to include stuff that will never be seen in the game. Second, if the game is advertised as having an increased level cap compared to the original and people never get near it, you will have a lot of angry posters here...

 

Considering this game is going to be about the lenght of the original game, how fast is all this leveling going to be ?!? Will we ever be able to roleplay a little beetween leveling ?!

 

Roleplaying and leveling are independent of each other. If you don't want to level up, just don't press the button. You are rarely force to do so.

[Frosty_V2.1]

Roleplaying and leveling are independent of each other. If you don't want to level up, just don't press the button. You are rarely force to do so.

You could perhaps say something similar of how easy battles are, they both are effected by skills which you get when you gain a new level (though I admit you don't use many skills anyway but will apparently use them more in KotOR II) and since a level represents the characters improvement from practice, experience and learning in a number of areas..

 

I do agree that the AI scripts aren't very interesting though, even Malak was basically plain BAB and AC boosted .. but then I can't think of many things off the top of my head that would really make it more meaningfully challenging.

[Shdy314]

Roleplaying and leveling are independent of each other. If you don't want to level up, just don't press the button. You are rarely force to do so.

You could perhaps say something similar of how easy battles are, they both are effected by skills which you get when you gain a new level (though I admit you don't use many skills anyway but will apparently use them more in KotOR II) and since a level represents the characters improvement from practice, experience and learning in a number of areas..

 

I do agree that the AI scripts aren't very interesting though, even Malak was basically plain BAB and AC boosted .. but then I can't think of many things off the top of my head that would really make it more meaningfully challenging.

More force powers, more use of said force powers, use of items, retreating and healing, traps etc. Blah Blah Blah. Basically imagine if Malak were the PC what would he do? Then have him do that. Then you won't need that annoying, overused, cheap as hell cop out of the boss drawing power from something in the fight that must be destroyed before you can beat him. NWN had this TWICE! One of which was the final battle. So sad that modders can increase the AI enough to make combat challenging (TOB perfect example) but the devs can't ship it with good AI.

[Frosty_V2.1]

Point I think this would help with group battles more but without a better (or tweaked) combo of force powers or feats to help out as well, looking back at ToB you have a good range of spells that buff, give different resistances, some spells that need counter spells like Breach or Spell Strike vs. Spell Turning etc .., various types of direct damage and spell failure made a difference too which kept battles going longer.

People have already mentioned stuff like Stasis Field/Stun and Force Wave being too powerful, or the enemies too weak to resist it, so yea ...

[Quiquag]

I think there would be 40 levels as in 20 for your normal class and 20 for your prestige class so it would still follow D20 in some way.

[jedijcm]

i think your character is made too powerful, i think powers like force lightning should be reserved for prestige classes, it should be quite difficult to reach a prestige class.

[Opus131]

How is that smart?

 

Because it allows to have a limit on the number of levels you can attain, without using a cap.

 

Torment had such a system, and it worked wonderfully, it's Bioware and their damned policy of making games as n00b friendly as possible that creates all sorts of problems, stupid level caps among many...

 

Roleplaying and leveling are independent of each other. If you don't want to level up, just don't press the button. You are rarely force to do so.

 

I was being sarcastic you goof.

 

The fact is that leveling shouldn't become the focus of the game. After a few quick level ups at the beginning (to reflect the fact it doesn't take much of an efford to master the basics), leveling should slow down considerably towards the middle of the game, subsiding behind the story and atmosphere of the game, just a background feature to reflect your character's growth.

 

After all, this isn't freaking Diablo...

[Quiquag]

Im sure leveling up won't take that much time out of the game. The game will probably be like the first kotor in the sence that you level up about every 45 minutes to an hour of gameplay. If the game last for 60 hours or 40 hours there should be a cap at around level 50 or 60. Or make it so unattainable to level up at a point that it is almost virtually impossible to level up any farther. There really shouldn't be a visable cap where after a time experience points mean nothing to your character.

[Opus131]

The game will probably be like the first kotor in the sence that you level up about every 45 minutes to an hour of gameplay.

That's faster then diablo... <_<

[Enoch]

I can't see how levels will matter in KoTOR2 unless they go out of their way to improve the quality of enemy AI. The problem was that the only fight in the game that was even remotely challenging for any character that was not intentionally messed up was Malak (well, and maybe some of the early ones on Taris if you hold off on leveling up -- but again, that is intentionally keeping your character weak).

 

If they're smart, they'll set a total level cap somewhere around 25 or 30, but not put enough XP in the game for you to even come close to that.

 

How is that smart? First, it wastes developer time and computer space to include stuff that will never be seen in the game. Second, if the game is advertised as having an increased level cap compared to the original and people never get near it, you will have a lot of angry posters here...

Your point on the AI is well-taken.

 

But, I doubt that it takes much developer time or resources to add more possible levels. Assuming that the powers and feats are structured similar to the original, you can max out any one power or feat grouping at around level 13 or 14. All that you get with the levels above that are more of them. Thus, making it hypothetically possible to level up really high doesn't take any more effort than creating lots of interesting alternatives for the 'mid-level' character.

 

Actually letting character get that high, however, is a bad idea. Of course people will complain that their character isn't powerful enough. They always do. But a game is made better when the developers have enough sense to protect gamers from themselves. Games are better when they include difficult choices over which abilities to pursue and which to skip. Letting the PC level up to ridiculously high levels makes these choices far easier, since the character is going to get all the marbles in the end, anyway.

 

Plus, if you allow leveling-up until everyone can 'do it all,' every character at the endgame is essentially identical (or, at least every character within a particular PrC is). That's no fun-- I want my hero to be unique.

[Althernai]

Torment had such a system, and it worked wonderfully, it's Bioware and their damned policy of making games as n00b friendly as possible that creates all sorts of problems, stupid level caps among many...

This is untrue. You could get to any level you wanted in Torment. There were quite a few ways to do it -- I believe the easiest was to cast Cloudkill at the respawning beasties in Undersigil. The developers even accounted for this -- if you were at an unusually high level, TTO would have more hit points and better stats. The thing is, few people ever saw this because casting Cloudkill ad nauseum was pretty boring and the levels were not that important (I tried it for a short time and then went away).

 

I would not be against a system like the one in Torment. But to advertise an unreachable level cap would not be nice.