Mokmurian's Club discards itself for its greater effect

[Longshot11]

Instead, it should allow you to discard ANY card from your hand (including the Club itself)

[Irgy]

Club works fine for me. You can discard it straight away, or reveal it. If you reveal it, you get prompted to discard another card.

[mccrispy]

What!? Is that new with a recent update? I've been using the club with Valeros for a long time, I'm sure I'd have noticed that. I'll have a check now and report back(that is if the darn thing ever cycles into my hand - last scenario I had a real issue with only one weapon amongst all the starting hands: Valeros had a bow but Merisiel, Kyra and Sajan had nothing for several rounds!)

[Longshot11]

Club works fine for me. You can discard it straight away, or reveal it. If you reveal it, you get prompted to discard another card.

Oh, s*it. I thought the "discard" button was referring to its "discard" power, not a shortcut to "play the discard power and pay the cost with this specific card".

[elcoderdude]

Um.... maybe it is in particular broken with Valeros?

 

I'm playing a cop-and-a-half playthrough with Valeros and Lem.  I put Mokmurian's club in Valeros' deck, realizing it was a little silly since he can't recharge it for its effect.

 

Then, Valeros was fighting the succubus queen in deck 5 and I played Mokmurian's club.  I was wondering how I'd designate the card I was discarding for the extra d10. I clicked the Discard button on the club. Poof! It discarded itself. And I got the extra d10.  Then, after the combat, Valeros was able to recharge it.

 

Yay! It works in his deck!

 

But it shouldn't.

[Longshot11]

But it shouldn't.

Why not? You're still discarding a weapon for its power after all (the difference being that MC can also discard *other* cards for its own power).

 

What tripped me up is, that with MC the 'Discard' button is in essence only a shortcut to say "...and discard *this* particular card" for the 'Discard 1 card?" prompt you get when you press the 'Reveal' button. Personally, I expected (and think would be much more user-friendly if you're playing MC often) that 'Reveal' should mean "...and I don't want to play the greater power", while only when you press the 'Discard' button the game will throw up a prompt "Select a card to discard"

[mccrispy]

It shouldn't work in his deck because he isn't discarding the Weapon to play it, he is discarding the weapon to pay for an effect - even though the effect is on the Weapon itself. It's not the same as "or discard this card for an extra D10+3", it's "discard a card to..." you just happen to choose the MC to power the effect.

 

But I agree with you in that the buttons are stupid (and misleading in the manner you describe). There is no "discard this card" effect as there is on many other weapons so it should behave like - for instance the Black Arrow Bow (or whatever the giant-slaying bow is called). However, when the "discard upto 1 card" effect fires you should then be able to select any card (including MC) and hit the "Discard" button. What the devs did is effectively a shortcut but it implies an effect that doesn't exist.

[Irgy]

It shouldn't work in his deck because he isn't discarding the Weapon to play it, he is discarding the weapon to pay for an effect - even though the effect is on the Weapon itself. It's not the same as "or discard this card for an extra D10+3", it's "discard a card to..." you just happen to choose the MC to power the effect.

 

But I agree with you in that the buttons are stupid (and misleading in the manner you describe). There is no "discard this card" effect as there is on many other weapons so it should behave like - for instance the Black Arrow Bow (or whatever the giant-slaying bow is called). However, when the "discard upto 1 card" effect fires you should then be able to select any card (including MC) and hit the "Discard" button. What the devs did is effectively a shortcut but it implies an effect that doesn't exist.

 

While your argument has merit, the test for whether or not you are "discarding a card for its power" has been officially described thus:

"Are you playing a power on the card? Would the card be discarded?" If yes to both you are discarding the card for its power.

[mccrispy]

Fair enough. Care to provide a reference?

[elcoderdude]

I'm a little confused by some positions being taken here.

 

...you may additionally discard one other card from your hand to add another d10.

 

Valeros should not be able to discard and recharge the Club itself to get an extra d10. The club's power doesn't support that.

 

When you play a weapon, you may recharge it instead of discarding it.

Playing a card means using a power on that card by performing an action with that card that is specified by the card itself (see Boons, page 23).

Choosing to activate a power on a displayed card also counts as playing it.

 

Valeros is not playing the card he discards to add a d10 using the Club's power, because he is not performing an action specified by that card. So he can't recharge it.

Edited November 25, 2016 by elcoderdude

[Longshot11]

 

...you may additionally discard one other card from your hand to add another d10.

 

Hold on a sec. I seemed to remember that being the MC's power, and that's one of the things that confused me initially. However, MY Club in the app currently says:

 

"...: you may additionally discard a card from your hand to add another 1d10"

 

Notice the lack of "one other" - so we have a discrepancy between the real card and the app (which allows you to discard the MC itself to power its greater effect). So maybe that's the real bug here?'

 

If -for whatever reason- the app text is deemed correct, Irgy's argument above seems the correct one - 1) You ARE playing a power on the MC and 2) you ARE discarding the MC, therefore "You are discarding the MC for its power"

 

I can see why some people are confused, as they are seeing the reveal of MC as playing the card, while the discard opportunity is a *bonus* from playing the MC by reveal. Consider how a normal weapon is worded:

"For your combat check you may reveal...; you may additionally discard this card to add..." - here, we have no argument that the discard is 'playing the weapon'

Would it help, if the MC was worded:

"...; you may additionally discard this card or another card to add 1d10" ?

When we compare the two wordings, it's obvious discarding MC is still 'playing the weapon'. Furthermore, discarding *another* card is *still* "playing Mokmurian's Club" - so, if for example Valeros' power was worded "If you play a weapon by discarding a card, you may recharge the card instead"  - you would be able to recharge that *other* card as well.

[Ethics Gradient]

If -for whatever reason- the app text is deemed correct, Irgy's argument above seems the correct one - 1) You ARE playing a power on the MC and 2) you ARE discarding the MC, therefore "You are discarding the MC for its power"

That's my take on it too.  Interestingly enough, Mokmurian's Club was not noted in the list of cards Obsidian changed in the digital version.

 

As always, it helps to occasionally sub out the pronouns and just do what the cards say without overthinking it:

"When you play a weapon, you may recharge [the weapon you played] instead of discarding [the weapon you played]."

  Did you play a weapon?  Yes. Mokmurian's Club.

  Did you discard that weapon because of a power you activated while playing it? Yes.

 

That is what I see justifies the recharge.  If you try and argue against recharging weapons that are discarded at self-cost, Valeros wouldn't be able to recharge anything.

 

Anyway, thank goodness there isn't a location with a "Bury any weapon you would discard" power.  We don't need another rules war to break out.

[Longshot11]

 

Anyway, thank goodness there isn't a location with a "Bury any weapon you would discard" power.  We don't need another rules war to break out.

 

Well, in the newest set, Mummy's Mask, there was a location that said "When you play a weapon, discard it", and a weapon that said "Bury this card to explore your location". I'll let you guess how *that* went...

[elcoderdude]

 

 

...you may additionally discard one other card from your hand to add another d10.

 

Hold on a sec. I seemed to remember that being the MC's power, and that's one of the things that confused me initially. However, MY Club in the app currently says:

 

"...: you may additionally discard a card from your hand to add another 1d10"

 

Dang. I didn't read the digital card that closely. I haven't gone back to check, but I believe you. I quoted the card version. There is no FAQ on this, so that's a straight-up change. Not sure why they did that, since this weapon works differently than any other weapon anyway.

 

Given this, I fully agree with Longshot's evaluation.

 

Note that if Valeros discards any card other than the Club to power the Club, he could't recharge/shuffle THAT card, because he isn't playing it.

Edited November 26, 2016 by elcoderdude

[Ethics Gradient]

Dang. I didn't read the digital card that closely. I haven't gone back to check, but I believe you. I quoted the card version. There is no FAQ on this, so that's a straight-up change. Not sure why they did that, since this weapon works differently than any other weapon anyway.

 

Hey, @elcoderdude, I just heard the following from Aarik regarding the club:

it was a text change made by Paizo. So if there is any confusion, it would be best to hit them up

Looks like there may have been a super-stealthy update on Paizo's side of things.

[elcoderdude]

Hmmmmm. Thanks.

 

There's no word about this anywhere on the the Paizo site.

 

There's a current thread with input from Vic about variations between the card game and the app, I'll post the question there.

Edited December 22, 2016 by elcoderdude

[elcoderdude]

Update: Vic responded on that thread.

 

Answer: It was a mistake. Paizo gave Obsidian this text in error. The power should not have changed.

[Ethics Gradient]

Update: Vic responded on that thread.

 

Answer: It was a mistake. Paizo gave Obsidian this text in error. The power should not have changed.

Yikes.  Very cool that you were able to track down an answer!