Return of the backstab rogue

[Braven]

Has anyone tried out a back-stab rogue with the latest patches?  It sounded like the issues with strike abilities and back stabs have been fixed, and some of the strike abilities have been buffed a little and escape now seems like a nice way to protect yourself after you backstab from getting interrupted or stun-locked to death (a problem I had with a glass-canon backstab rogue)

 

On the less positive side, sabers are no longer the auto-include for backstab rogues.  The new +20% damage modifier seems like a drop in the bucket for rogues who already have tons of damage modifiers.  Maybe it make sense now to return to guns?  Maybe a different set of 1-handed weapons with useful effects or critical-hit damage boosts is now better.

 

If going both defensive and backstabbing, I think you would have a hard time getting all the talents until the very late game.  You could have both a back stab weapon set, and a large shield and hatchet set.  Stealth gives you plenty of time to switch weapons before you backstab and right after you can instantly switch to the large shield to avoid damage/stun/interrupt while you wait on your recovery bar and for when you want to use non-combat actions, like summoning figurines, using potions, and so forth. 

 

 

[Raven Darkholme]

For backstab itself gun was always better than sabres, since you can't continiously do it max damage is important and reload matters less.

I don't really think it's viable to build a rogue around backstabbing, you're not gonna win any fights on backstab alone.

If your gonna go with a 2nd weapon set for nomal fighting as long as you don't solo dual wield is gonna be better than shield.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Raven Darkholme

[Braven]

I played around with a DPS backstabbing solo rogue in patch 3.02, but was annoyed with the buggy behavior of back stab and the fact I would get interrupted often right after backstabbing making it hard to get away.  Because your first action needs to be attacking, you can't distract the enemies with figurines.  I found that the early game was easy solo, because you could just one-shot the most dangerous enemies (phantoms) from stealth and had 3 back stabs to do so.   Mid game is tougher and you are forced to rely on figurines for tanking.  Late game, you have the amazing feign death ability, giving you tons of back stabs (in theory, never tried it though).

 

The other problem was that stealth seemed meaningless in the expansion areas.  No amount of stealth helped you get close enough to back stab, at least with melee weapons.

 

In theory, it should play like the dull runner paladin, but instead of just 3 alpha attacks, you have potentially many more.  Though, I suppose it isn't until level 15 that you actually have a lot of back stabs and by then the paladin has their super AOE flame ability.  Maybe paladin is just better, particularly since their alpha strikes are all per-encounter.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Braven

[SaruNi]

Your first *two* strikes out of stealth/invisibility count as backstabs now, provided you only use autoattack, don't click to attack a second time, and don't switch weapons between the first and second strike (just tested this in-game with two guns, you can't get the first backstab with one gun and then Quick Switch weapons to get a second fast backstab, unfortunately). So two-handed swords are probably better if you want to get in two strikes, unless there's a good way to minimize reloading speed or you can kill with one firearm shot. Looks like arquebus now also has much better damage than pistols. 

 

Cape of the Master Mystic (WM1) grants invisibility when hit by a critical hit, which means 4 backstabs. So maybe a rogue variant of the Thundercat (want to get hit by crit) is possible? That way getting targeted by lots of enemies when you come out of stealth isn't a problem, it's a solution. Nightshroud also gives an extra use of Shadowing Beyond per rest, but you don't need to attack with it once that's unlocked (just have it equipped and switch to it once/rest). So maybe two-handed with Tidefall (great damage, plus healing to make up for being hit), Sanguine Plate (so you have Frenzy for your second set of backstabs), Tempered Helm (lower your deflection after kill), either Steadfast (if you're losing too much heath) or Echoing Misery. Maybe retaliation items with Deep Wounds. 

 

Don't know if Riposte can be reconciled with wanting to get hit by a crit. As I mentioned in the stealth/invisibility thread there are buffs/debuffs that could raise deflection significantly (like paladin's +deflection to a single ally ability)... and that could be great with greatsword. So theoretically perhaps "proc when hit by crit", retaliate, and "then raise deflection high enough for riposte to be worthwhile" could work, at least on lower difficulties. (Of course, an attack either misses, grazes, hits, or crits, so you've got everything covered there.)

Edited November 18, 2016 by SaruNi

[Raven Darkholme]

Having to use a per rest ability for bsing just seems super tedious and as you said stealth is not good enough to get close.

[Braven]

Your first *two* strikes out of stealth/invisibility count as backstabs now, provided you only use autoattack, don't click to attack a second time, and don't switch weapons between the first and second strike (just tested this in-game with two guns, you can't get the first backstab with one gun and then Quick Switch weapons to get a second fast backstab, unfortunately). So two-handed swords are probably better if you want to get in two strikes, unless there's a good way to minimize reloading speed or you can kill with one firearm shot. Looks like arquebus now also has much better damage than pistols. 

 

Cape of the Master Mystic (WM1) grants invisibility when hit by a critical hit, which means 4 backstabs. So maybe a rogue variant of the Thundercat (want to get hit by crit) is possible? That way getting targeted by lots of enemies when you come out of stealth isn't a problem, it's a solution. Nightshroud also gives an extra use of Shadowing Beyond per rest, but you don't need to attack with it once that's unlocked (just have it equipped and switch to it once/rest). So maybe two-handed with Tidefall (great damage, plus healing to make up for being hit), Sanguine Plate (so you have Frenzy for your second set of backstabs), Tempered Helm (lower your deflection after kill), either Steadfast (if you're losing too much heath) or Echoing Misery. Maybe retaliation items with Deep Wounds. 

 

Don't know if Riposte can be reconciled with wanting to get hit by a crit. As I mentioned in the stealth/invisibility thread there are buffs/debuffs that could raise deflection significantly (like paladin's +deflection to a single ally ability)... and that could be great with greatsword. So theoretically perhaps "proc when hit by crit", retaliate, and "then raise deflection high enough for riposte to be worthwhile" could work, at least on lower difficulties. (Of course, an attack either misses, grazes, hits, or crits, so you've got everything covered there.)

 

That is interesting.  I didn't know that two-handers also got two backstabs per invisibility.  That could be a game changer as they have a higher base-damage and great effects.  Wounding, in particular is very strong for a rogue because of the damage multipliers.  I think you would be torn apart waiting for that second attack, though.  I remember it used to be that interrupts prevented the second backstab (with full attacks).  Not sure if that is still the case.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Braven

[SaruNi]

Having to use a per rest ability for bsing just seems super tedious and as you said stealth is not good enough to get close.

 

So long as you click "attack" while you're in stealth/invisibility, it doesn't matter if you come out of stealth or invisibility before the attack happens. Your first two strikes are still backstabs. +movement speed can help too, though it's currently bugged on my installation after I experimented with +6 movement speed and died a bit (before it stopped working, though, it seemed almost like teleporting).

 

And of course Cape of the Master Mystic does give you one invisibility per encounter, if you're willing to get crit. I like the idea of a rogue as a sort of living bomb, baiting enemies into attacking....

[Braven]

I always liked the "crit me" builds.  Main problem though is you can get stun-locked if playing solo.  Normally, this is fixed with figurines to distract the dart throwers and then you take out them out quickly because of your high damage output.  But if you have to attack before you can summon figurines, this is a problem because they can stun-lock you right after you backstab while you wait on your recovery bar.

 

However if you can get your deflection to ultra high levels (even if only for a few seconds), then most enemies can't stun you because they are usually secondary attacks that only happen if a normal deflection attack doesn't miss.  However, I don't really see any way to actually make that work without completely nerfing your backstabs.

 

While cape of the master mystic is good, it is not until late game (and after some very tough battles) before you can get it.  Meanwhile, you do have the problem of really only 1 backstab without per/rest... and stealth backstab is very dangerous for the reasons listed above and not possible at all for many battles where it happens right when you enter a new area, open a door, cut scene, etc.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Braven

[SaruNi]

It's unfortunate that being invisible while solo just resets combat if you don't have a summons out. Though there are a few moments when you're invisible before combat resets, probably enough to initiate another backstab, though I haven't tested it yet. 

 

Could traps work? The Gaze of the Adragan trap seems very nice, and of course you can set traps without coming out of stealth. Maybe use boots of speed to set a trap before being spotted and then switch boots to Steadfast or Echoing Misery before initiating the backstab? Or do you still get spotted too quickly / are the good traps too rare?

[SaruNi]

I always liked the "crit me" builds.  Main problem though is you can get stun-locked if playing solo.  Normally, this is fixed with figurines to distract the dart throwers and then you take out them out quickly because of your high damage output.  But if you have to attack before you can summon figurines, this is a problem because they can stun-lock you right after you backstab while you wait on your recovery bar.

 

However if you can get your deflection to ultra high levels (even if only for a few seconds), then most enemies can't stun you because they are usually secondary attacks that only happen if a normal deflection attack doesn't miss.  However, I don't really see any way to actually make that work without completely nerfing your backstabs.

 

While cape of the master mystic is good, it is not until late game (and after some very tough battles) before you can get it.  Meanwhile, you do have the problem of really only 1 backstab without per/rest... and stealth backstab is very dangerous for the reasons listed above and not possible at all for many battles where it happens right when you enter a new area, open a door, cut scene, etc.

 

If you mean the darts in WM1, don't they cause Paralyze? Tempered Helm gives +25 defense against Paralyzed attacks. Of course there are other stun attacks....

 

Cape of the Master Mystic is WM1, which I thought of as more mid-game... though maybe not if you're doing a solo run. Can always wait until you get the proper items and re-train....

[SaruNi]

If you're in a very small party or solo (and have gotten Black Sanctuary from the Alpine Dragon), you can use Withdraw to become invisible, end combat, and reset all your per-encounter abilities, including the Cape of the Master Mystic and (really late in the game) Feign Death. So even before getting Feign Death, with x2 withdraw you could have up to 14 backstab attacks (1 stealth, 3 Shadowing Beyonds, 3 invisibility capes with summons or party member, 3 uses of the other proc on crit items too) even in situations where you can't run away. (And of course, while you're invisible, Deep Wounds is still working, including on anyone who hit you if you've got retaliation.) Then once you get Feign Death you can theoretically use it 3 times solo without fleeing, if you can time the summons.

 

(Edit: if running out of item slots for summons is a problem, you can get the multi-class talent that gives you a per-encounter summons and/or the talent that gives you an extra item slot.)

Edited November 18, 2016 by SaruNi

[Remix]

Utilizing the belt thst causes stuck on hit with some riposte mixed in could be useful for disengaging. It's name escapes me. Perhaps the boots that cause consecrated ground on a hit, too. Or something to increase movement apeed.

 

Build it like a magekiller. Add some lore for cc effects like paralyze. Maybe not great for solo but still viable in a party.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Remix

[Braven]

The problem is not disengagement; it is ranged enemy stunlock (first expansion is full of them). If they stun you once, they will continue to over and over again extending the duration (only takes a graze hit). After the first hit, it is easier for them to continue to hit since the ailment greatly lowers your defenses. Since you can take no actions or move while "stunned", it is game over. Only really a problem for solo players.

 

The only way to fix this is super high passive defenses (particularly deflection) such that enemies almost always miss (rogues don't have this) or summons to distract The enemies and absorb their stun attacks for you. Also, by stun I mean stun/prone/paralyze/petrify since they all work the same way. Stun/prone is no big deal since equipment can give you +100 defense against them. However, while some rare items help against paralyze, the buffs are not enough to prevent enemy grazes. Lowered duration doesn't matter if they just keep reapplying and extending the duration.

 

Sadly, since you must attack from stealth before you can use any items, that backstab is basically worthless against a pack of stun enemies. You could just use a different tactic when facing those enemies, though. Same way you must handle fights with stealth interrupting cutscenes.

 

I mention it because it is an annoying problem with stealth backstabs. Problem other alpha strikers, like "monster lash" paladins don't have.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Another way is to use Aila Braccia with high deflection. It turns 100% ranged grazes to misses and reflects the projectile back to the attacker, paralyzing him. Also works with single target ranged spells like Necr. Lance, Cleansing Flame and such.

[K Galen B]

I rarely see them mentioned, but Fenwalkers are fantastic against paralyze. The wiki and Gamebanshee both show old stats. Currently they give +20 defense and -3 seconds duration to paralyze/stuck/hobbled. That can take a lot of the sting out of being paralyzed. Particularly grazes, since their duration is already low.

Edited November 19, 2016 by K Galen B

[Boeroer]

That's right. You don't realize how good they are unless you use them for some time and meet foes with parlayzing attacks like skirmishers, banshees or lagufaeth.

[Braven]

I forgot about those. They used to be super bugged.