Help building a POTD non-caster (melee heavy) all human party

[peddroelm]

I'm back to PoE after a long hiatus (I left before version 2.0 since I tend to have issues with games still under heavy development - with no stable metagame and with reported bugs not fixed for months ). 

 

EDIT found a post about my previous PoE party composition preference https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79271-building-a-melee-party/#entry1687837

EDIT

 

While the metagame has probably crystallized for the most part some of the early bugs still run amok and new ones were added .

 

To the task at hand. I want to use a non-caster, melee heavy ALL HUMAN party for a POTD run with both add-ons : Paladin(MC), Fighter, Monk, Barb, Ranger and Rogue. 

 

Party AI always off ( at least there is an option to turn it off now) I don't mind the mountains of micro-management it will bring.  

 

Past those requirements I'm a bit lost.  Starting stats, perks , equipment/items ... 

 

Will I need to sacrifice my fighter's damage output (how badly ?) or can I get by with a party of glass cannons ? (ideally) .

 

I accept situational use of ranged weapons but would prefer all characters to be heavily melee specced .  

 

Example:

 

early early early draft

 

 (Great Sword ??) (Wayfarer??) Paladin  (tank ?? DPS balance tank ?? DPS balance early game .. later ? )

 Fighter (tank ?? DPS balance early game .. later ? )  (shield // 2h // dual ???)

 Monk (dual swords/axe  )   

 Barb (long reach weapon - which one? for better carnage application . Some of his abilities work best dualing ? HoF .. respec later? )

   (estocs also have the advantage of multiplying the DR reduction via carnage ...)

 Ranger (dual weapons? which weapons? ) + wolf

 Rogue (dual nerfed scimitars ? // dual axes ??)

 

Backup weapons for fights with high DR vs their preferred damage type for each character ?

 

Start the fights with blob on fighter(tank++) or as line ( fighter/pala/monk/pet/summons  with flankers joining after the initial engagements ) ? 

 

No need for brevity . 

Edited November 2, 2016 by peddroelm

[limaxophobiacq]

 

 (Great Sword ??) (Wayfarer??) Paladin  (tank ?? DPS balance tank ?? DPS balance early game .. later ? )

 Fighter (tank ?? DPS balance early game .. later ? )  (shield // 2h // dual ???)

 Monk (dual swords/axe  )   

 Barb (long reach weapon - which one? for better carnage application . Some of his abilities work best dualing ? HoF .. respec later? )

   (estocs also have the advantage of multiplying the DR reduction via carnage ...)

 Ranger (dual weapons? which weapons? ) + wolf

 Rogue (dual nerfed scimitars ? // dual axes ??)

 

Shield + One Hander works better for paladin (especially with the small shield thats only useable by pladins called outworn buckler available for purchase early in the game). Also I think you'll want lay on hands for that party.

 

Put the two-hander on the fighter instead they do more weapon damage than paladins anyway outside of Flames of Devotion and the paladin can use a firearm for the flames and then switch to shield + weapon.

 

Once you have HoF barbarian is best for dual-wield or weapon + bashing shield. The speed bonus from dual-wielding also goes well with attack speed from Frenzy so you attack really fast.

 

For the ranger I don't think any other pet can compare to Stag, carnage with the high base damage and DR penetration of animal companion attacks is fantastic early game even with the small AoE. Later in the game pet defenses lag way after characters that can use equipment and stag or no stag they are limited in what they can do becaue they get CC'd all the time.

Edited November 2, 2016 by limaxophobiacq

[peddroelm]

Shield + One Hander works better for paladin (especially with the small shield thats only useable by pladins called outworn buckler available for purchase early in the game). Also I think you'll want lay on hands for that party.

 

I'm thorn between outworn buckler + 1 handed weapon + lay on hands

 and  "strange mercy" + 2 handed weapon (tidefall) microed for FoD killshot heals.  (don't "waste" FoDs on opening shot, save them for precious tactical heals)

Atm I'm leaning towards the second option. 

Edited November 2, 2016 by peddroelm

[Boeroer]

My thoughts:

Fighter
The best single target dps class in my opinion. Later an gets some AoE abilities as well. Fighters can dish out good damage while staying alive even when not skilled for tankyness. I would go for dual wielding. Why? Because Knockdown (up to 3/encounter) is a Full Attack, meaning you will hit once with every weapon. But the main reason is Charge. It doesn't say it in the description, but Charge will also deliver a Full Attack to the target, ON TOP of the crush damage that charge itself does. This kills most enemies right away. This makes the fighter the best "behind the lines" class. He can quickly take out dangerous enemies like casters while not getting knocked out. Add high INT, Clear Out and Disciplined Barrage and weapons with on-crit-effects and/or annihilating (like Godansthunyr + Shatterstar for example) and you are good to go. Very effective and lots of fun. A charging fighter is also out of the way and makes room for all the other melee guys.

Paladin
For me it's always Outworn Buckler. It's just too good. Have a look at my latest paladin build Counselor Ploi, it's a supporter melee but also kills for effects. Can easily be converted to a Kind Wayfarer.

Monk
Always dual wielding because of Torment's reach (Full Attack). BUT - what's really nice is a monk with Badgradr's Barricade: the on-crit-effect works woth Torments's Reach AoE which triggers Thrust of Tattered Veils - and you don't lose much dps with bash because the cone's crush damage has its own base damage which is completely independent from your weapons. You can build a tanky monk and still do Full Attacks with Torment's Reach all the time. Until you get Badgradr's Barricade you can take the Larder Door that you get very early. This is the best combo of stzrdyness and dps on a monk there is
If you don't like shields in a monk, then any dual weapon setup will do. Look at my Monksterlasher build, it combines sturdiness with very high dps.

Barbarian
If you want a reach weapon, take Tall Grass and skill for critical hits. You might want to take Aspirant's Mark on any of your chars because it's the only way to lower deflection in an AoE if you don't have casters. Prone in an AoE (carnage) is very powerful. Use Frenzy, Bloodlust (both stack) and also Blood Thirst to speed things up. The only Full-Attack-ability of the barb for which you want dual wielding is Heart of Fury (HoF), which is superstrong. But you could use dual war hammers in the second weapon slot and switch before HoF in order to get two swings - or you do it with Tall Grass, it's also nice enough for HoF.

Ranger
Go for a wounding weapon - likely Tidefall because it's the earliest one to get. Later you could respec for Drawn in Spring + Little Savior (stacks with outworn buckler) or something. Look at my Riptide Ranger build and you'll know why a wounding weapon is good for a ranger. Also put on Shod-in-Faith boots to constaly heal your pet (pref. wolf). The build says it all. It's 2.03, but most things said there still apply.

Rogue
Melee rogues are kinda crappy in my opinion. Strict single target damage while being extremely squishy is a bad combo - especially if the damage is nothing special compared to some other classes which are not as squishy and don't need that much micro with afflictions and all. I tried a ton of different builds but they are all inferior to other classes' builds which do the same as a rogue. This is not an invitation to a discussion - my mind is set on this one. Maybe they are fun in a solo game when using stealth and invisibility and stuff - but when you prefer the good old "into the fray" approach there's always a better option than a melee rogue.
What works okayish and requires not that much babysitting is a tankish rogue, skilled for sturdyness with Veteran's Recovery, a shield, with retaliation and Deep Wounds. With high MIG, Vulnerable Attack and all his damage mods he can dish out good (dual) retaliation damage when he gets hit and will also trigger Deep Wounds on everybody who hits him (even if immune to pierce damage). Grab Sura's Supper Plate and Garodh's Chorus (both retaliations stack) and Deep Wounds, then maybe a battle axe (I would aim for We Toki). You can even take Riposte although it's still not superpowerful. What may be good is to aim for the Unlabored Blade - its Firebug spell chance will get fixed with the next patch 3.04, which is supposed to come out this week. Firebug has very high base damage and it works with Deathblows (damage will get doubled) and Scion of Flame and will do very high damage when it triggers.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Boeroer

[peddroelm]

@Boeroer  thanks for the pointers

 

dual  wpn Fighter sold!

Shieldbearer Paladin sold!

Shield on Monk .. hmm How does that work with stunning blow (full attack) ? 1 or 2 attacks ? Bash attack will have poor accuracy ? (did they ever fix the annihilation bug for torment's reach ? (  http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/page-4#entry1691371 )

Barbarian .. Isn't barbaric blow also full attack ? I liked using estocs back in the day since you could stack disorient on multiple foes with carnage ( your concern my party would lack AOE deflection reduction  ) 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79544-1050567-disorienting-debuff-5-all-defenses-stacks-with-itself-bug-or-wad/  did they ever fix this ? googling my old thread for link .. apparently they did change it somehow ...not clear from thread..

Ranger .. (marked prey is still a 20% main weapon damage type lash ? ). Why was I considering dual weapons on this guy ?   (wounding shot also prefers 2h weapons)

shield on Rogue !?   But what about their truckload of full attack abilities ? (I agree they drop like flies and perfectly understand where you're coming from.  I also recall having issues with Ranger survivability back in the day) 

Edited November 2, 2016 by peddroelm

[Boeroer]

Monk:

When using Full Attacks with a bash shield you will attack with the bash first and then comes the main hand weapon. So yes - 2 attacks with bash, not 1. That's the reason I recommend it with Torment's Reach.

Bash is an ability and therefore gets +1 ACC per level. With Bagradr's Barricade your ACC will only be a few points lower than that of your main weapon with Weapon Focus. I guess 5 points or so. The bash ACC therefore is surprisingly high.

 

Barbaric Blow is only good when you dual wield. With a pike I would skip it. Stacking Disorienting and Interfering got nerfed: doesn't stack anymore.

Tall Grass on a barb is a great setup. Reach is good for the best placement of the centre of carnage. Hours of St. Rumbalt and barb are also big friends. No reach, but also prone on crit and annihilating - and two damage types.

 

Ranger

Marked Prey now marks a target and you and your pet will do +20% weapon base damage to that target. ACC is also higher if I recall correctly.

Wounding Shot is better with 2h, yes.

The combination of Tidefall + Shod-in-Faith boots and maybe also Veteran's Recovery on a ranger makes his pet do enormous damage, prolongs the life of the pet and the ranger. It's just no tank but is sturdy enough for an offtank. Rangers have lowish endurance and health but their base deflection is OK. If you let your pet engage first you won't run out of health. The pet has no health bar which can be abused with excessive healing. Think about your paladin. Lay on Hands and the Wayfarer talents can keep the pet alive for some time. Rangers now also have 2 healings for their pet per encounter. And the pet can feign death.

 

Rogue

The Full Attack abilities are ok. They also work with Badgradr's Barricade by the way. So if you don't like the idea of a monk with it, you can use it on a rogue and skill for all those full attack abilities. It worked quite well for me when I used this setup for the Devil of Caroc. I combined it with the stunning hammer Godansthunyr. That led to a lot of crits with the bash which triggered Thrust of Tattered Veils. That also works with Deathblows by the way.

Or - what I totally forgot: maybe a rogue with a reach weapon can balance out his squishyness while he's still able to dish out melee damage. Tall Grass would be good (if the barb won't take it) or even Llawran's Stick (has speed). Durance's Staff is also nice: it has two damage types (crush/burn) which makes it the only reach weapon which has two damage types instead of only one.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Ah, and I forgot: Stunning Shots of the ranger now also works in melee. It means perma-stun most of the time if you're fast enough (high DEX + Swift Aim + durgan steel) and your INT is not too low. Most enemies die after very few hits/bites if you combine wounding + stun because the pet then gets +95% DMG which is awesome with that high base damage they have. And they crit a lot because of the stun, too. Since you will flank with your pet a lot, you can also skill for a lot of survival and go for max dmg bonus against flanked targets.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Boeroer

[bigwillystyle]

Pedro, good to see you active again.  You don't know me, but anything I learned about pre 2.0 POE mechanics or warfare on Deity in Civ5 likely came from you.  Anywho, couple of modest points:

 

- The Kind Wayfarer power "Strange Mercy" is much more powerful than it was when you last played - it now scales with level, whereas before it was kinda meh.  Worth thinking about. 

 

- The stacking debuff bug was fixed ... much to the chagrin of users of Scon Mica's roar

[Boeroer]

An maybe also after I posted this: Stacking Disorienting 

[KDubya]

I'd look to make the monk use fists instead of weapons. It free's up weapons and crafting supplies for the others. It's only when fully optimized and durganized that fists are ever challenged for supremacy by weapons and you have a whole team that needs to be upgraded. With that I'd also go with a Juggernaut 3.0 with high con and might.

 

Instead of a Rogue, who are pretty lackluster, why not go with a Chanter? They'll be only one point lower on mechanics but will help the whole party, especially a melee team. With the two regen auras they can keep the whole team in Wolverine mode. Since everyone is using weapons I'd go for the +25% fire lash that'd help the whole team rather than just stacking Dragon Thrashed. This also leaves room in the chants to weave in some nice buffs and debuffs. I find the fear chant that you get at level two is a great debuff to enemy accuracy. Shield and tanky works well as does two handed reach. With a melee heavy team getting to the enemies is sometimes troublesome but reach weapons solve this, especially at early levels with doorways.

 

Another nice Pike for the carnage Barbarian is the Lost Thayn's Reach (I think that is it's name), the one that debuffs accuracy on hit that you can but in Copperlane. No need for getting a crit like Tall Grass needs, just get the hit. With that debuff and the fear chant going the enemy has like -15 to hit you. Run the Zealous Endurance aura as well as your team will mainly get grazed which will get absorbed by your heavy armor. With Veteran's Recovery on everyone but the ranged Ranger and the two Chanter regen auras you'll be very durable.

 

A team like that doesn't have trouble with much at all and when they do they still have figurines and scrolls. Nothing sorts out a tough bounty fight like a couple of high accuracy confusion scrolls as an alpha strike. Plus there are so many items with spells for casting that you won't miss the casters, just have a spell weapon in the other slot and use it and then swap to a different spell weapon next fight.

[peddroelm]

Chanter > Rogue in this party . Agreed. Sometimes I used to drop the ranger for a chanter but - thematically it doesn't make sense for me for this party (heavy melee focus - non-casters). + Check my signature - I have a softspot for high damage numbers in the combat log . (the burn there was from chanter aura..)

 

Weapons on Monk. Back in the day the accuracy from transcendent suffering did not apply to torment's reach cone hits. The battle axe extra critical multiplier was applied to torment's reach cone hits. I'm not aware of fixes for any of those issues. What about torment reach + bash (lower accuracy again ?).  (missing weapon focus and on weapon accuracy ? )

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/page-4?do=findComment&comment=1691371

 high con and might are givens on my monks. 

 

Ranger Stunning shots. That's probably the main reason why I was considering dual wield. Still fortitude check is not easy to make. (perhaps barbarian sickness could be of help ).

 

For the rogue it would really irk me to lose the 2 ability checks when using a 2 handed weapon. Much better chances to apply the condition with 2 checks instead of 1.

Edited November 3, 2016 by peddroelm

[peddroelm]

Still work in progress party plan...  ( just say NO!! to shields    2 2handed users and 4 dual wielders  kill them before they kill us) ..

 

Might run a few tests on the skills I'm not sure about before starting the run..

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dIOrSAfTOra_ZPIF2bAOE375PM5MGNVloVQDzkPw_pQ/edit?usp=sharing

Edited November 5, 2016 by peddroelm

[AndreaColombo]

Weapons on Monk. Back in the day the accuracy from transcendent suffering did not apply to torment's reach cone hits.

 

I've just run a quick test and this doesn't seem to have been fixed. Cone hits do not benefit from Transcendet Suffering's Accuracy bonus, or from the one-handed Accuracy bonus if you're wielding a one-hander with no shield. A pity; I had forgotten about this bug or I would've brought it up again during the 3.04 beta.

 

Regardless, boosting Accuracy in this game is fairly easy so from mid-levels on, your cone hits will never miss anyway

 

I suspect the issue with weapon perks is also not fixed, but a Monk's fists scale up to a higher Accuracy and damage than even Legendary weapons—and if you're using Zahua, you even get a passive +10% attack speed perk from his personal quest (which imo makes him better than any hired Monk.)

Edited November 5, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Boeroer]

Can it be that it also doesn't profit from from weapons' ACC enchentment (never tested that)? Because the cone's damage has nothing to do with the weapon at all. It has it's own crush base damage. If it is so I wouldn't consider it a bug. Torment's Reach is an ability and therefore should get +1 ACC per level like bash does. Maybe that's the case here? I guess Charge's crush damage has the same mechanics? 

[peddroelm]

Can it be that it also doesn't profit from from weapons' ACC enchentment (never tested that)? Because the cone's damage has nothing to do with the weapon at all. It has it's own crush base damage. If it is so I wouldn't consider it a bug. Torment's Reach is an ability and therefore should get +1 ACC per level like bash does. Maybe that's the case here? I guess Charge's crush damage has the same mechanics? 

When I did test this (~ 1.04) the cone damage hits were benefiting from on weapon accuracy. The main reason I've never used unarmed (main attack) damage monks so far.  Also annihilation on weapon applied to torment's reach crits. (extra reason to ditch fists)

 

it was linked above

..

73 accuracy TR AOE with fist // lvl 10 monk +12 accuracy to fist from transcendent suffering did not transfer to TR AOE

85 accuracy TR AOE with Blade of Endless Paths (superb weapon) 73 + 12

87 accuracy TR AOE with We Toki ( knight weapon focus + excellent weapon ) 73 + 6 + 8

91 accuracy TR AOE with Edge of Reason ( knight weapon focus + superb weapon ) 73 + 6 + 12

94 accuracy TR AOE with We Toki ( knight weapon focus + excellent weapon + fighting spirit ) 73 + 6 + 8 + 7

98 accuracy TR AOE with Edge of Reason ( knight weapon focus + superb weapon + fighting spirit ) 73 + 6 + 12 + 7

..

Edited November 5, 2016 by peddroelm

[AndreaColombo]

Torment's Reach does indeed take +1 Accuracy per character level. The bug lies in the fact that the Accuracy bonus from Transcendent Suffering applies to the first target you hit, but not to any subsequent targets hit by the cone AOE. It sounds like a bug because it's inconsistent behavior.

 

Additionally, the bonus Accuracy from weapons still seems to apply. My test was with a Legendary weapon (+15 Accuracy) and the difference between the main target and the cone's targets was 12--same as the one-handed bonus.

[Boeroer]

Ok - now that's crappy.

To be honest I never ever noticed. And I didn't read all those things from 1.x and so on because I startet to play PoE a bit later and really got into it with 2.x.

And I now realize that I never played a monk with fists - besides the Witch Doctor with The Long Pain. But that's another story: I guess the Long Pain's ACC applies to TormR because those fists are summoned weapons and not basic fists pimped by Transcendent Suffering. Would be one more reason to use them instead of the normal fists (they also get +20 ACC).

Edited November 5, 2016 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

I agree that's crappy, but a Monk with fists is still plenty powerful and I favor it over a Monk with weapons

[Boeroer]

Well Novice's and Transcendent Suffering have some really weird mechanics that let you deal very consistent damage no matter if doing a graze or a crit. And after several shouts of "WTF OBS?" I actually came to like that (mostly on other characters than a monk) although I think this was not entirely intended. But the lacking ACC for TR is really stupid.

 

I like a monk with weapons because the on-crit effects translate to TR's AoE. And because of lashes. But it's nice that you get really powerful backup crushing weapons for free.

[peddroelm]

..while working on my new PoE damage mechanics compendium (which might never be ready for public release ) I dug up another one of my old posts :

 

"

..The accuracy from transcendent suffering does:
-NOT matter for: flaggelant's path (since very few things  except char level affect its chance to hit).
-NOT work for (most monk special attack to Hit checks) unlike +accuracy on actual weapons: force of anguish (prone),  stunning blows (stun), torments reach AOE cone hits, Enervating blows (weaken),  rooting pain AOE.
On top of that, endgame unique weapons can get extra enchantments like lash, annihilation, drain , coordinating .. Dual fist loses by a significant margin to endgame unique weapons ..

.."

[KDubya]

The beauty of dual fist Monks, besides the obvious style, is that it free's up enchanting supplies for the rest of your team. Durgan steel is a limited resource and a melee guy can require three pieces for armor and weapons/shield/two hander. A Monk can get by with just one for his armor or even none if he goes with the soulbound breastplate.

 

Also fist hit as hard as average speed weapons but as fast as fast speed weapons.

 

The fact that they auto update is also great throughout the game. At level four you won't have fine weapons of your choosing but a Monk will have his fists effectively upgraded to fine automatically.

 

In all of my playthroughs with Monks on the team (solo might be different, but I have no interest in solo), dual fists have never disappointed and have always led the team in damage by a bunch.

[peddroelm]

in my melee parties (early to mid game) barb leads damage by a landslide.  Then comes the rogue with solid advantage above the rest. Then fighter, monk , ranger and paladin dead last .. 

 

But it also has to do with playstyle  and party composition .. I do things a certain way (put very priority in positioning the barb where he can deal most damage, upgrade his estoc first , etc .. ).   Extra care given to have the rogue join later, flank and dice for maximum effect..   Monk could definitely do more if I was better at positioning her in a position to get wounds and have plenty of tourment's reach targets in range.. I'm trying : ) ..She does start to shine brighter once she gets a few more levels and special abilities..

 

And my monk build focuses on things like stun fist (fortitude check), enervating blows (fortitude? hit check again), my melee party has few ways of debuffing defenses  (could cheese scrolls or caster apprentice abilities but then what's the point of playing a melee party )  so the few abilities that can inflict status effects are very precious to me and I need to maximize their accuracy .. 

Edited November 11, 2016 by peddroelm

[K Galen B]

I imagine it can be pretty difficult for a monk in a 6-melee party to take enough damage to really shine in any case. I wonder if that would make Lesser Wounds worthwhile?

[peddroelm]

They do pull their weight in a six melee party ( durability, abilities and damage).  

 

Lesser wounds syncs best with iron wheel at high level (gets you the high DR faster) .. Otherwise POTD will provide plenty of wounds, especially with no shield ...

[KDubya]

Lesser wounds is trash, sorry to be harsh but it is.

 

I'd pick all of the enemy specific +25% damage abilities long before I'd even think about taking lesser wounds.

 

Getting wounds is easy, just put the Monk in the front. The enemy tends to shoot the first thing they see and that'll be the Monk. Especially casters will fire off their missile spells and the Monk will have 6-10 wounds in the first few seconds. That opens up a Flagellant's Path right through the pack and a few Torment's to the casters.