Should the EU become the United States of Europe? What do you think?

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

Ben No.3: Are the figures on page 5 in the following PDF true?

 

http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/zlw/bilder/stuttgart_6_2016_El-Mafaalani.pdf

Sounds about right, yes

What point are you trying to make?

Just to make sure that my German is correct, is this what the figures say?

 

Frankfurt

- Total number of people with foreign background: 43%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 70%

 

Stuttgart

- Total number of people with foreign background: 38%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Nürnberg

- Total number of people with foreign background: 37%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 70%

 

München

- Total number of people with foreign background: 36%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Düsseldorf

- Total number of people with foreign background: 32%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Köln

- Total number of people with foreign background: 31%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 55%

 

Hannover

- Total number of people with foreign background: 30%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 55%

 

Dortmund/Duisburg/Gelsenkirchen/Berlin/Hamburg/Bremen/Essen

- Total number of people with foreign background: 20-29%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: Under 50%

I am no sociologist, and I can only speak for Frankfurt, Stuttgart, München, Düsseldorf and Berlin, but I'd say it feels bout right... To be honest I would have thought the number would be higher in Berlin

 

 

Dear lord, you guys have really crossed the Rubicon. Do you consider it an accomplishment to effectively destroy your heritage and leaving no Germany for your children? You guys are on the path of extinction if anything.

 

What a sad sight to witness.

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

 

Ben No.3: Are the figures on page 5 in the following PDF true?

 

http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/zlw/bilder/stuttgart_6_2016_El-Mafaalani.pdf

Sounds about right, yes

What point are you trying to make?

Just to make sure that my German is correct, is this what the figures say?

 

Frankfurt

- Total number of people with foreign background: 43%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 70%

 

Stuttgart

- Total number of people with foreign background: 38%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Nürnberg

- Total number of people with foreign background: 37%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 70%

 

München

- Total number of people with foreign background: 36%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Düsseldorf

- Total number of people with foreign background: 32%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Köln

- Total number of people with foreign background: 31%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 55%

 

Hannover

- Total number of people with foreign background: 30%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 55%

 

Dortmund/Duisburg/Gelsenkirchen/Berlin/Hamburg/Bremen/Essen

- Total number of people with foreign background: 20-29%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: Under 50%

I am no sociologist, and I can only speak for Frankfurt, Stuttgart, München, Düsseldorf and Berlin, but I'd say it feels bout right... To be honest I would have thought the number would be higher in Berlin

Dear lord, you guys have really crossed the Rubicon. Do you consider it an accomplishment to effectively destroy your heritage and leaving no Germany for your children? You guys are on the path of extinction if anything.

 

What a sad sight to witness.

I am supporting a EU nation, do you think I'm worried about different cultures from immigrants I'm Germany?

[Ben No.3]

But what is that great German culture we are destroying? Germany as it is now is a very young country, we don't have an identity yet, only history

[Ben No.3]

And countries like the US? It is made out of immigrants, and it managed to get some level of culture

[Chilloutman]

"mind you its 10 years back, there is now no doubt that its caused by second/third generation of migrants, but I will let you do some stuff and debunk this statement"

-you, just a few minutes ago

OK I was not going to point it out, but you have some serious problem understanding written text. It was jab on how you stated that 2nd/3rd generations are all integrated into host society. Not sure what logical fallacy you used to think that I have sad that 'because your ancestors were Nazis you are as well'

Edited October 10, 2016 by Chilloutman

[Chilloutman]

I am supporting a EU nation, do you think I'm worried about different cultures from immigrants I'm Germany?

Sorry but you dont want EU nation, you want one nation if you don't care if those citizen in EU are actually Europeans

[Chilloutman]

And countries like the US? It is made out of immigrants, and it managed to get some level of culture

Did you ever attempted to get Visa to US? If you do maybe you would understand why immigration into US is viewed as benefit for USA - good luck getting there if you are not 'rocket scientist'

[Ben No.3]

 

"mind you its 10 years back, there is now no doubt that its caused by second/third generation of migrants, but I will let you do some stuff and debunk this statement"

-you, just a few minutes ago

OK I was not going to point it out, but you have some serious problem understanding written text. It was jab on how you stated that 2nd/3rd generations are all integrated into host society. Not sure what logical fallacy you used to think that I have sad that because your ancestors were Nazis you are as well

You said:

Immigrants have set cars on fire, their children and grand children will as well.

If that applies, them:

Germans were nazis, so their children and grandchildren will be as well

must apply. Logic is not selective.

[Ben No.3]

 

I am supporting a EU nation, do you think I'm worried about different cultures from immigrants I'm Germany?

Sorry but you dont want EU nation, you want one nation if you don't care if those citizen in EU are actually Europeans

I agree. A German is anyone with a German passport, same would apply for the EU Nation

[Chilloutman]

 

 

"mind you its 10 years back, there is now no doubt that its caused by second/third generation of migrants, but I will let you do some stuff and debunk this statement"

-you, just a few minutes ago

OK I was not going to point it out, but you have some serious problem understanding written text. It was jab on how you stated that 2nd/3rd generations are all integrated into host society. Not sure what logical fallacy you used to think that I have sad that because your ancestors were Nazis you are as well

 

You said:

Immigrants have set cars on fire, their children and grand children will as well.

If that applies, them:

Germans were nazis, so their children and grandchildren will be as well

must apply. Logic is not selective.

 

Now you just pulling this out from your .... I have never said/wrote that

[Meshugger]

But what is that great German culture we are destroying? Germany as it is now is a very young country, we don't have an identity yet, only history

 

Before commenting on your previous answers, i have some other questions:

 

- What then constitutes as European to you?

- What are the characteristics of the European spirit, compared to for example the Japanese one?

- What are the defining traits, characteristics and culture?

- When does one not become a European?

[Ben No.3]

 

And countries like the US? It is made out of immigrants, and it managed to get some level of culture

Did you ever attempted to get Visa to US? If you do maybe you would understand why immigration into US is viewed as benefit for USA - good luck getting there if you are not 'rocket scientist'

I did actually visit the US last year, with an visa. But I was actually meaning it in a historical sense... The only "actual" Americans were mostly slaughtered...

[Ben No.3]

 

 

But what is that great German culture we are destroying? Germany as it is now is a very young country, we don't have an identity yet, only history

Before commenting on your previous answers, i have some other questions:

 

- What then constitutes as European to you?

- What are the characteristics of the European spirit, compared to for example the Japanese one?

- What are the defining traits, characteristics and culture?

- When does one not become a European?

1. Either by historically being European in a geographical sense when talking about events, languages, traditions and so on, or, when we talk about people, a passport from a European country.

2. I sadly don't know enough about Japan to draw the comparison, sorry

3. A culture is defined by its traditions in a broad sense. I also include for example language or arts.

4. When he drops European citizenship

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Meshugger]

 

 

But what is that great German culture we are destroying? Germany as it is now is a very young country, we don't have an identity yet, only history

Before commenting on your previous answers, i have some other questions:

 

- What then constitutes as European to you?

- What are the characteristics of the European spirit, compared to for example the Japanese one?

- What are the defining traits, characteristics and culture?

- When does one not become a European?

1. Either by historically being European in a geographical sense when talking about events, languages, traditions and so on, or, when we talk about people, a passport from a European country.

2. I sadly don't know enogh about Japan to draw the comparison, sorry

3. A culture is defined by its traditions in a broad sense. I also include for example language or arts.

4. When he drops European citizenship

 

 

Your answers are conflicting one another as sometimes it is just a passport but then later it is unique traits expressed through culture.

 

I will help with point two, it wasn't a direct comparison to Russians per see, but rather how do you even define what the European spirit is when we have songs, art and literature highlighting what is quintessentially French, British or Croatian for that matter. What do you define a European one on the same terms?

Edited October 10, 2016 by Meshugger

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

But what is that great German culture we are destroying? Germany as it is now is a very young country, we don't have an identity yet, only history

Before commenting on your previous answers, i have some other questions:

 

- What then constitutes as European to you?

- What are the characteristics of the European spirit, compared to for example the Japanese one?

- What are the defining traits, characteristics and culture?

- When does one not become a European?

 

1. Either by historically being European in a geographical sense when talking about events, languages, traditions and so on, or, when we talk about people, a passport from a European country.

2. I sadly don't know enogh about Japan to draw the comparison, sorry

3. A culture is defined by its traditions in a broad sense. I also include for example language or arts.

4. When he drops European citizenship

 

 

Your answers are conflicting one another as sometimes it is just a passport but then later it is unique traits expressed through culture.

 

I will help with point two, it wasn't a direct comparison to Russians per see, but rather how do you even define what the European spirit is when we have songs, art and literature highlighting what is quintessentially French, British or Croatian for that matter. What do you define a European one on the same terms?

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by Chilloutman

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

But what is that great German culture we are destroying? Germany as it is now is a very young country, we don't have an identity yet, only history

Before commenting on your previous answers, i have some other questions:

 

- What then constitutes as European to you?

- What are the characteristics of the European spirit, compared to for example the Japanese one?

- What are the defining traits, characteristics and culture?

- When does one not become a European?

1. Either by historically being European in a geographical sense when talking about events, languages, traditions and so on, or, when we talk about people, a passport from a European country.

2. I sadly don't know enogh about Japan to draw the comparison, sorry

3. A culture is defined by its traditions in a broad sense. I also include for example language or arts.

4. When he drops European citizenship

Your answers are conflicting one another as sometimes it is just a passport but then later it is unique traits expressed through culture.

 

I will help with point two, it wasn't a direct comparison to Russians per see, but rather how do you even define what the European spirit is when we have songs, art and literature highlighting what is quintessentially French, British or Croatian for that matter. What do you define a European one on the same terms?

I need to exuse myself, I was unclear. I will answer both questions in one answer.

 

Historically speaking, there is no "European culture". For a very long time, we were a lot of of fighting countries with big cultural differences. That's what I meant by geographical: since there is no singular European culture, anything set in Europe can be considered European, in a geographical sense.

For citizens, it is not all that different. There are so many cultures, but in my opinion, anyone who is a EU citizen by passport is a European.

I think it is time to move on, put our petty differences aside and move on as one country. don't get me wrong! Every culture should still be respected and should celebrate themselves, only a different culture should not divide Europe. I hope we can be a country of many cultures but one set of values at some point.

 

As I said, I'm an idealist

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

"mind you its 10 years back, there is now no doubt that its caused by second/third generation of migrants, but I will let you do some stuff and debunk this statement"

-you, just a few minutes ago

OK I was not going to point it out, but you have some serious problem understanding written text. It was jab on how you stated that 2nd/3rd generations are all integrated into host society. Not sure what logical fallacy you used to think that I have sad that because your ancestors were Nazis you are as well

You said:

Immigrants have set cars on fire, their children and grand children will as well.

If that applies, them:

Germans were nazis, so their children and grandchildren will be as well

must apply. Logic is not selective.

Now you just pulling this out from your .... I have never said/wrote that

"mind you its 10 years back, there is now no doubt that its caused by second/third generation of migrants, but I will let you do some stuff and debunk this statement"

 

This is a debate, not a discussion. You should expect me laying out what you said in a way I can use it against you. You do that as well...

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

But okay, different argument. How is it obviously caused by the immigrants?

Is there any reason to say that aside from "they're immigrants "?

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

In every group of people there are people willing to conduct crimes. That applies for every single society how is it only the immigrants fault?

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Meshugger]

In your "idealism" you are happy about eliminating Germany as a country and germans as a people; which is well underway too provided by my original link, but at the same time happy about creating a new nation-identity where other cultures and groups of people exist. You admit that different white ethnic groups in Europe have a culture based traditions, heritage and expressed through arts, music, philosophy, and literature, but at the same time these traits and qualities dissappear when the moment they change passports. You believe in democracy, but the people need to be re-educated until they vote right and agree with your premise of such nation. Your idealism is a mess. It only creates misery and suffering, both for the immigrants and the native population, so I suspect that there some other motives at play here than ideas of a possible "utopia".

 

....so, in other words, we're back to what i originally stated, based on your answers. 

 

Am I only one getting a laugh out of this? Through out history the German people conquered Europe one way or the other, but now suddenly they claim to not exist and that national borders are just an organizational problem, but effectively it would still result in Germania being created, even in a crypto-state. "Wir schaffen das!", indeed.
 
Go to bed, Merkel, you're drunk.

  

Yes, you have denied yourselves an identity to such a degree that you have to forge a new one of Europa instead where everyone has to join. Snap out of it already as the current talisman of human rights and tolerance is a very, very weak one. Read Heinrich Heine's poem about christianity to see what i am talking about.

 

I wonder what you will say to your children? "I was born a German in Germany, but i casted all that away to create a new imaginary one"? That has to be an awkward discussion.

 

P.S. I find it interesting that you omitted the Hart-Celler act of 1965 from your argument about USA being an immigrant nation. 

[Chilloutman]

But okay, different argument. How is it obviously caused by the immigrants?

Is there any reason to say that aside from "they're immigrants "?

I was providing you sources all the time, make some effort and prove me wrong

[Meshugger]

In every group of people there are people willing to conduct crimes. That applies for every single society how is it only the immigrants fault?

 

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201607181043178514-nice-terror-hollande-civil-war/

[Chilloutman]

 

In every group of people there are people willing to conduct crimes. That applies for every single society how is it only the immigrants fault?

 

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201607181043178514-nice-terror-hollande-civil-war/

 

 

Sputnik news, really? :/

[Barothmuk]

You have yet to actually say what constitutes "German culture".

 

For me it'd be something along the lines of "content produced within Germany in the German language". A definition that's definitive enough to differentiate German things from non-German things all the while also able to accommodate the inherent diversity of political opinion and background to be found in German works.

 

Your definition however seems to be less - concrete. Asserting that there is some quintessential German culture that must think and act a specific way for it to constitute German.

[Chilloutman]

German culture - Oktoberfest