[CLASS BUILD] The Witch Doctor (mid-ranged dps monk disabler)

[Boeroer]

Because it's not very good in the first place - especially in the later game where endurance pools are way bigger. If I didn't know what else to pick I would take it - but this build in particular wants to max dmg with Long Pain and grab every CC option there is. I need every talent point and every ability to achieve that. No room for Lesser Wounds.

 

If you desperately need more wounds: shoot your own monk in the back.

 

You only need enough wounds to cast Long Pain. Since you have several CC options that don't rely on wounds (Stunning Blows, Skyward Kick, Knockdown etc.) you can do something even if nobody hurts you. I mean besides letting the fists fly with auto-attacks.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Boeroer

[dreamrider]

Having trouble with the " Distract, Run Past, Wait for Combat to End " tactic.

 

I can suck in all the spirits, I can get past.

(Actually, with Long Stride, Survival move bonus, and Goldrot Chew, I could run past an Olympic track team.)

 

1) I can't get 'behind' the throne.  Too narrow, all prohibited space.  However, I assume that part of the action sequence description really means "on the left of the throne, against the wall".

 

2) After a couple of tries, I have been able to set the animat distraction far enough own the hall that there IS a brief combat stop.  However, I never get a speaking icon over the steward before the spirits return far enough up hall to see the MC and start the music & dance again.

 

What am I missing?  Do I need to manipulate the distraction combat even further down hall so the music-off return interval is longer?  Other?

[Boeroer]

No idea. Maybe the behavior got changed in the meantime. Last time I did it you could drop a summon near the entrance, run towards the thone and into a corner, wait until the phantoms finished off the summon (combat would end) and once you walked towards the steward the conversation got triggered immediately without doing anything an my part. Maybe they fixed that part and now you have to defeat the phantoms before the dialogue can be triggered?

[dreamrider]

Do you think I need to come around to the FRONT of the throne to trigger dialogue?  Easy enough to check, I guess.

[dreamrider]

OK, it is still possible to run past, wait out the combat, then speak to Steward.  I am playing v.3.07.0.1318, latest GOG distribution.

You have to go to the FRONT of the Steward, on the steps, to trigger her dialogue.

 

But...

what is supposed to happen then?

 

Because all of the spirits still seem to be in the Great Hall...and now I am in the possibly 'wrong' end.

 

Going own to the ungeon an back oes not help...still there.

 

Well, I've cleared the spiders, so I could rest up in the dungeon I guess, and get my summons back.  I have established that at least I can kite the two deepest Phantoms without attracting the others, so with the animat tanking, I may be able to eventually clear them. 

 

I think perhaps I also nee to clear the way to the Statue head scaffold first, though, so I have another way out.  I only have one camping supply pack, so I can only do the animat tank / kiting thing once, unless the spirits deeper in the Hall will turn back before following to the down stairway.

 

In previous versions, did the spirits go away once you spoke to the Steward?

Edited July 21, 2018 by dreamrider

[Boeroer]

Yes, after the dialogue they were gone.

[dreamrider]

OK, cleared Great Hall (and library - how come no one ever mentions the library!), with the aid of animat summons, several fan of flames, Whispers of Yenwood + Larder door and several reloads.

 

I'm not actually sure that being able to skirt past and speak to the Steward is any particular gain over just doing the spirit clean up back at the vestibule.  You seem to end up using about the same resources / kill techniques. 

 

The one thing you gain is access to lower levels, and it is in some ways easier to clean out the dungeon and part of the looter level, gaining alternate access to the outside via the Hand - but then you still have to come back an clear the Great Hall to make use of the Stronghold.  You could level in the meantime, I guess.

[dreamrider]

Wonder if ...

 

Previous result of spirits disappearing after dialogue was always a unintended, an now fixe, or...

 

Obsidian change it to increase the challenge once the tactic exploit was well known, or...

 

Spirits stuck around for me because a single phantom was already visible by the time I did the dialogue with the Steward?

 

 

Tell me, when you have used the run past / meet Steward tactic in the past, has it also cleared the spirits from the Library? 

If it did, then I take my encounter with another serious bunch of spirits in the Library as prima facie evidence that Obsidian changed this deliberately to make this rite of passage tougher.

 

 

Well, it was tough enough that I ain't goin' back to try it agin' right now. 

 

I may experiment with trying to get in the dialogue with Steward before any spirits return to visible circle on some later day.  I think I have preserved the pre-entry save state.

 

Does anyone else have any recent experience with this tactic, in v.3.07+ ?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

FWIW, generally speaking my equal attributes Range Monk, based somewhat off the Witch Doctor is going well.  Mostly I am running her in this nice Dyrwoodan frock w/ a little neckline braid, a couple feathers for accent.  For the Action Speed, y'know.  Occasionally swapping to a Fine Brigantine, when punishment is predictable, inevitable, and unavoidable.

I have thought about enchanting her standard clothing a bit, but held off so far. 

Obviously eventually I'd like to put her in Gwis Glas (Sp?), but I also wonder how heavy an armor I can eventually wear while maintaining a 0 Recovery, with judicious item selection.

[Boeroer]

Library? Why would you want to go there?

[dreamrider]

Umm...dump all my accumulated books.  Arrange the narratives in order to read through.  To truly own the place.

I don't really know all of the background that well yet.

 

In truth, in part to get the xp from the 1-2 spirits I expected to be in there.  (sheepish grin)

 

Of course, I suppose once the Steward rebuilds the place later, the spirits really woul be gone.  Oops.

[dreamrider]

My even-stats Long Pain Ranged Monk is at 6 Lvl, working on accumulating for 7, right now in EPON L2.  Looking forward to trying out Long Pain.

 

I've discovered that with most cannon fodder enemies, a quick contact > disengage with your fast-moving monk is a good way to get those first 1-3 Wounds you nee to become Mr. Ugly.  Like the Hulk.

 

 

What do you do re armor on the early levels, especially when you are soloing a monk?

 

Do the additional items available at Anslog's Compass, from the Deadfire Pack, change your armor choices at all for the Witch Doctor build (or derivatives)?  There are a lot of Might buffs among that stuff.

 

 

(I am particularly fond one soulbound level-up for the Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer that I have read of, where you have to go drink in every available pub in the Eastern Reach.)

Edited July 23, 2018 by dreamrider

[Boeroer]

"Every pub" does not include the one in the Lighthouse in Ondra's Reach if I remember correctly. I guess because theoretically you could skip that quest and there would be no pub then.

 

Armor in early game is always plate for me. And potion of Spirit Shield.

 

Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer is really nice.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Boeroer

[dreamrider]

Really liking the idea of early enchanted clothing more and more. 

With just regular clothing, and consequent 0 recovery, many kinds of opponents only ever get in 1 - 3 strikes.  The pummeling and the interrupts act as the main defenses.

 

I used to have a military instructor who made the point that the "best defense" is to try to arrange events so you never get hit.

[dreamrider]

Here I am (recently) at Lvl 11 with my derivative of your WD ranged monk disabler)…

 

...and I have made what I consider my 2nd major deviation.  I'd like your reaction / opinion.

 

(The first major deviation was setting the MC up with even stats across the board - I just saw a reason in every attribute to be a bit above average.  But we've already discussed that - and it is working out OK.)

 

As I've mentioned, I'm playing this MC (semi-)solo, that is solo in at least the first two Acts, to build xp fast.  However, I have collected the Companions to Brighthollow, and used them for Stronghold sidebar Adventures, escorts, etc, to gain extra xp.  I'm also working the Companion Quests when appropriate, in duo with each Companion in turn.

 

Because MC is solo a lot, I have followed all you general and specific suggestions to make the build a safer solo.  Looking for early self-heal enhancements like Veteran's Recovery, obviously not min-maxing, staying fast, taking some of the defensive Talents.  Bear's Fortitude, so far.

 

Now the latest deviation:

At Lvl 11, I have all the essential monk damage abilities: Swift Strikes, Torment's Reach, Force of Anguish, The Long Pain, along with Long Stride.

The 6th Ability choice was going to be an enhancement, in my view, rather than an essential.

Then while studying the Ability choices, I found myself considering that I had had to dismiss using the "hater" talents (except possibly Beast Slayer), since there would not be room for those + the prudent defensives for the solo adventuring.

I kinda hated cutting all that damage potential out.

Then I considered that you said the constraints on Abilities for this build were a bit looser than the really tight situation of NEEDING every single Talent slot.

 

So I started looking through the remaining Abilites for something that might partially compensate for the missing "hater" hits.

 

I decided to take Turning Wheel. 

I have the impression that you don't generally favor it because it is so variable in effect.  I know it is dependent on having a stack of (or at least a couple) Wounds in queue. 

However, I figured that to keep the Long Pain active you also need to accumulate a few Wounds, probably a couple of times across a major fight. 

Also, its a Passive, like the "haters".  A very good thing when you are having to run around to stay alive as a solo, and manage The Long Pain, which takes some timing attention.

 

So far it seems to be working nicely.  The additions are minor, but then a kite solo is a matter of pick-pick-pick anyway.

At a guess, I am getting may half the addition that an appropriate "hater" Talent would give me.

One small benne is that I am getting the addition on every target (when I have Wounds), from the moment Leveled up to 11.  For the "hater" Talents, the build up of the Talents would be spread across many level-ups.

 

So, comments?  Logical fallacies?  Laughter? 

 

 

Also, re Talents, for later:

I've been running with Persistance (such a nice girl !) in Set I, and Ilfan Byrngar's Solace + fist in Set II.  I have two weapon style, which is just fine since it affects TLP whenever it is active, regardless of having the real hands behind the Long Pain Fists filled with something else.

 

Since I am not taking all the "hater" Talents in order to fit in some defensives, do you recommend taking Weapon + Shield in addition to the Two-Weapon Style that I already have?  Is that even allowed?  Does it work?

 

'Cause if it DOES work, even at my current defense levels that would make my Deflection and Reflex around 90+; with Mirrored Image about 115; with Wizard's Double about 130.  And there are probably a few more minor bumps I could add.  The MC would be VERY hard to hit.  Though I don't know what kind of Accuracy the dragons hit at.

Edited August 2, 2018 by dreamrider

[Boeroer]

Weapon and Shield Style can be used, of course. Once you switch to a weapon + shield setup it will work. It does nothing if you dual wield fists, but for more versatility it can be good.

 

I didn't take Turning Wheel because it doesn't work with the Long Pain (or at least didn't when I made this build). I wrote about it in the opening post. Besides that I'm a big fan of Turning Wheel.

[dreamrider]

On my last several combats, dancing my way delicately and gracefully through every room of the Temple of Skaen at Dyrford, leaving the occasional...well, OK...every...initiate in a glowing pile of loot, I paid particular attention to the Active Effects portion of my Character Screen.

 

Before combat was joined, and after the music stopped, neither The Long Pain nor Turning Wheel were shown among active effects. 

 

On a couple of occasions, combat was technically in progress (the music was playing, I was hearing enemy sound effects) but my character had nothing in sight and was not taking action yet.  Neither TLP nor TW was shown as Active.

 

On other occasions, my first offensive action was to activate TLP after a spell-hit.  Upon viewing the Active Effects immediately after starting up TLP, with the Long Pain Fists as the equipped weapon, BOTH The Long Pain AND Turning Wheel were shown as Active. 

 

During one such bout, the MC had had to Disengage and separate before activating TLP.  As a result, even after bringing up TLP, the Monk was carrying about 8-9 Wounds.  The TLP strikes were distinctly heavier (pretty awesome, actually) than in the more usual combats where the MC was only wearing 0-3 Wounds.

 

My conclusion is, Boeroer's testing of 2+ years ago notwithstanding, in v.3.07 Turning Wheel DOES work with The Long Pain.  Yeah!

Edited August 5, 2018 by dreamrider

[hansvedic]

On my last several combats, dancing my way delicately and gracefully through every room of the Temple of Skaen at Dyrford, leaving the occasional...well, OK...every...initiate in a glowing pile of loot, I paid particular attention to the Active Effects portion of my Character Screen.

 

Before combat was joined, and after the music stopped, neither The Long Pain nor Turning Wheel were shown among active effects. 

 

On a couple of occasions, combat was technically in progress (the music was playing, I was hearing enemy sound effects) but my character had nothing in sight and was not taking action yet.  Neither TLP nor TW was shown as Active.

 

On other occasions, my first offensive action was to activate TLP after a spell-hit.  Upon viewing the Active Effects immediately after starting up TLP, with the Long Pain Fists as the equipped weapon, BOTH The Long Pain AND Turning Wheel were shown as Active. 

 

During one such bout, the MC had had to Disengage and separate before activating TLP.  As a result, even after bringing up TLP, the Monk was carrying about 8-9 Wounds.  The TLP strikes were distinctly heavier (pretty awesome, actually) than in the more usual combats where the MC was only wearing 0-3 Wounds.

 

My conclusion is, Boeroer's testing of 2+ years ago notwithstanding, in v.3.07 Turning Wheel DOES work with The Long Pain.  Yeah!

Have you considered the possibility that it was just RNG luck?

 

Could you provide screenshots?

 

EDIT: Please know that I am not trying to rain on your parade; on the contrary, if what you say is true, it opens up a build I wanted to do!

 

EDIT2: Could you also list your equipment if you test this again, please? It might have been the Blood Testament gloves, I suppose.

Edited August 5, 2018 by hansvedic

[dreamrider]

In so far as the Character Screen indicating that Turning Wheel was Active simultaneously with The Long Pain, "No, not just luck".

 

Yes, I did consider the possibility.

 

Checked Active Effects list before activating TLP, and while TLP was hot, and after TLP was ended, multiple times, probably a dozen, in as many separate encounters.

 

 

Admittedly the particularly high damage numbers when I had 8 Wounds showing could have been a spectacular set of die rolls, I guess.  I just haven't been getting in the situation of a big pile of standing Wounds very much. 

However, in that encounter I had 2-3 targets at range, with several strikes at each, maybe a total string of 8-9 TLP strikes.  When I saw the initial high hit value or two, I deliberately refrained from using Torment's Reach so I would not pull down the Wound pool.  The numbers on all strikes were quite high, 40-70.

 

I don't have the Blood Testament gloves. 

I don't even know what they do.

 

I have recently been switching to my melee set (fist & shieldd) only rarely, only when pinned by a group.  So most of the fights I am talking about would have been with TLP overlaid on the hunting bow Persistance.  Which shouldn't have any impact on TLP results, since the Long Pain Fists have their own stats.

 

Armor: Dywoodan clothing, enchanted to +4 DR (I did this for the 0 Recovery time)

Head:  Company Captain's Cap - this is a soulbound heavy benefit item, but it was only at 2nd level: 1xConfuse on Crit, Confuse Immunity, & +1 DEX (suppressed), +1 RES

Neck: Spellward Amulet - +10 Def vs any spell, whatever Defense it takes.  Random cache item.

Hands: Spiderfingers - +1 PER, and a minor END spellbind (that I have never used).

Waist: (This is the big item.) Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer - +3 MIG, +3 DEX, +2 INT, plus a couple nice fire spellbinds.  Fully bound.

Ring: R. of Deflection - +9 DEF

Ring: R. of Eternal Funding - 5 cp every payday, or every payment, not sure.  MC wasn't taking enough hits to make it worthwhile to swap back to Gaun's Pledge.

Feet: Fenwalkers - +20 vs Stuck, Paralyzed, Hobbled.

 

The only one of those that would make a diff to TLP hit results is the Belt.  However, I had the Belt at this level before I took Turning Wheel, and did not notice such notably large hits.

 

And of course, none of the above touches on the fact that Character Screen / Active Effects list was showing Turning Wheel as Active simultaneously with The Long Pain.

Edited August 5, 2018 by dreamrider

[hansvedic]

In so far as the Character Screen indicating that Turning Wheel was Active simultaneously with The Long Pain, "No, not just luck".

 

Yes, I did consider the possibility.

 

Checked Active Effects list before activating TLP, and while TLP was hot, and after TLP was ended, multiple times, probably a dozen, in as many separate encounters.

 

 

Admittedly the particularly high damage numbers when I had 8 Wounds showing could have been a spectacular set of die rolls, I guess.  I just haven't been getting in the situation of a big pile of standing Wounds very much. 

However, in that encounter I had 2-3 targets at range, with several strikes at each, maybe a total string of 8-9 TLP strikes.  When I saw the initial high hit value or two, I deliberately refrained from using Torment's Reach so I would not pull down the Wound pool.  The numbers on all strikes were quite high, 40-70.

 

I don't have the Blood Testament gloves. 

I don't even know what they do.

 

I have recently been switching to my melee set (fist & shieldd) only rarely, only when pinned by a group.  So most of the fights I am talking about would have been with TLP overlaid on the hunting bow Persistance.  Which shouldn't have any impact on TLP results, since the Long Pain Fists have their own stats.

 

Armor: Dywoodan clothing, enchanted to +4 DR (I did this for the 0 Recovery time)

Head:  Company Captain's Cap - this is a soulbound heavy benefit item, but it was only at 2nd level: 1xConfuse on Crit, Confuse Immunity, & +1 DEX (suppressed), +1 RES

Neck: Spellward Amulet - +10 Def vs any spell, whatever Defense it takes.  Random cache item.

Hands: Spiderfingers - +1 PER, and a minor END spellbind (that I have never used).

Waist: (This is the big item.) Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer - +3 MIG, +3 DEX, +2 INT, plus a couple nice fire spellbinds.  Fully bound.

Ring: R. of Deflection - +9 DEF

Ring: R. of Eternal Funding - 5 cp every payday, or every payment, not sure.  MC wasn't taking enough hits to make it worthwhile to swap back to Gaun's Pledge.

Feet: Fenwalkers - +20 vs Stuck, Paralyzed, Hobbled.

 

The only one of those that would make a diff to TLP hit results is the Belt.  However, I had the Belt at this level before I took Turning Wheel, and did not notice such notably large hits.

 

And of course, none of the above touches on the fact that Character Screen / Active Effects list was showing Turning Wheel as Active simultaneously with The Long Pain.

 

 

I'm hopeful that your analysis is correct. That being said, I worry that perhaps the bigger damage numbers may have been due to hitting one of the benchmark levels that increases fist (and thus TLP) damage. Could you investigate this further?

 

EDIT: My memory was slightly incorrect; TLP does get more damage as you reach certain benchmark character levels, but it does NOT get the Transcendent Suffering bonus (https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Long_Pain_Fists).

Edited August 5, 2018 by hansvedic

[Boeroer]

No, instead it scales its accuracy and its base (!) damage. This is why it is so freakingly powerful with all dmg bonuses (especially crits if you get Merciless Hand).

 

Turning Wheel might be active (why not?) but that doesn't mean its lash gets applied to the damage of the Long Pain. It's also active if you are wearing hunting bow but doesn't add its lash to it.

 

To be sure: just check the combat log after a hit with the Long Pain, made with several stacked wounds. Lashes will always be shown seperately, like "40 crush, 10 burn". If this is not the case then Turning Wheel still doesn't work with the Long Pain.

 

Blood Testament Gloves do the same as Turning Wheel: they add a lash per wound. In this case it's 2% raw (!) lash per wound. It stacks with everything else.

[dreamrider]

@hansvedic,

 

The upgrade levels for Transcendent Suffering are 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and presumably for PoEII:DF, 19.

 

The above observation attempting to determine if Turning Wheel was operating with The Long Pain occurred at character Level 11. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by dreamrider

[dreamrider]

Boeroer,

What do you like better on a "something like" of this build:

- Blood Testament

- Gauntlets of Swift Action ('cause I found a pair)

and

what are the Mourning Gloves (they aren't in the wiki)?

 

Also, are the Rabbitskin Gloves (+10% to Crit Camage) anywhere in the running?

[Boeroer]

Def. Blood Testament. Because they are not random and the +2% multiplicative raw dmg per wound is pretty awesome.

 

Mourning Gloves give a bunch of neat bonuses on kill: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Mourning_Gloves

But the speed bonus doesn't stack with Swift Strikes.

 

Rabbit Skin Gloves: meh!

 

I guess overall the Gauntlets of Swift action will give you the highest dps increase (because you don't always have 10 wounds).

Edited August 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[dreamrider]

Do the Preservation feature of the Ring of Thorns, and the Preservation from Solace or Little Savior shield STACK ?!

 

Huh!  I guess they should.  Different classes of gear.

 

(That being the case, I want to find a way to fight from a prone position.)

 

====================================================================================

 

On another, earlier discussion in the thread:

 

I wonder if the engine actually recognizes when The Long Pain is at contact range, as opposed to a distant target, and applies Turning Wheel to the melee strikes? 

In other words, are the bonus calculation parameters range-based rather than Ability-based?

Edited August 18, 2018 by dreamrider

[Boeroer]

Yes, they stack. A nice trick you can do: grab a chanter with Dragon Thrashed, give him max defenses and both items, cast Defensive Mindweb on him and then Withdraw. He will still chant and share his ridiculous defenses (buffed by +100) with the party.

 

The Long Pain is declared as ranged weapon. That means no engagement and no Turning Wheel. The distance to the target doesn't matter and doesn't change the behavior afaik.