Closing a few loops on lore

[TeraAkron]

I just finished White March Part 2. PoE in all its entirety has been a fantastic experience - a modern reimagining of the classic RPG. WM2 also did a good job of expanding the vanilla lore on (arguably) the most interesting aspect of the storyline: the origin, evolution and ongoing role of the gods. However, I strongly feel there are disjointed or conflicting pieces of information scattered throughout the game. I would love your feedback on the following open questions. Clarifications from the dev team on these points would also be great! 

 

Q1: What phenomenon ACTUALLY destroyed Engwithan civilisation?

a. The creation of the gods as sites such as Sun in Shadow? Surely thousands of Engwithans gave their lives in this process.  

b. The small moon pulled over Eora by Ondra? We know that Abydon stopped it from hitting at full force  (and died in the process), but did the lessened impact still affect kith civilisation? Some theories on these forums say that the lessened impact actually DID wipe them out, but enough ruins / evidence of their existence survived for future peoples to learn a great deal from them.

c. It is implied at the end of WM2 that the Eyeless had a role in wiping out the Engwithans after they were "repurposed" by Ondra, in the same way they wiped out the Pargunens of the White Forge. Were the Eyeless responsible for the annihilation? Was (b) the first attempt by Ondra - failed due to Abydon's intervention - while © was ultimately a success?

 

There is also an element of hubris in this. Engwithans created the gods...and one of them ultimately wanted to push the reset button on them?

 

Q2: How was Abydon resurrected? If he had forgotten about the whole ordeal with Ondra, why didn't the other gods (eg. Magran) tell him about it? 

 

Thank you for your insights

 

 

 

[Romanul]

Good questions, this game needs a proper wiki.

[house2fly]

For question 1, absolutely A.  Thaos spent decades stealing souls from an entire country just to give Woedica a boost; how many people must it have taken to make a god from scratch?  IMO Ondra didn't want to wipe out the last remaining Engwithans, she wanted to wipe out the Engwithan ruins.

 

As for question 2, it could be Ondra just convinced them to go along with it for the sake of keeping things smooth; the gods seem to take extra care not to tread on each other's toes and interfere with each other or mortals.

[kvaak]

Didn't the Engwithans allow themselves to die out so the knowledge their gods were artificial would die with them? Or did that only apply to Engwithans who knew about it? Then again wasn't the reason for their creation in the first place to give Engwithans something to follow?

 

I'm confused.

[AndreaColombo]

Many Engwithans gave their life to create the gods, but it is never explicitly stated that all of them did. In fact, it is implied that the first missionaries (who would later become Inquisitors, in my understanding) were, in fact, Engwithans. However, I agree with house2fly that Ondra didn't want to destroy the Engwithan people (gods have a long-standing pact not to meddle with kith affairs; mass-murdering an entire population would be a gross, blatant violation of it) but rather the memory of them and of what they had done/achieved. This would essentially wipe out: a) knowledge of the artificial nature of the gods; b) knowledge of how to create gods; c) machines that can redirect the flow of souls and/or steal them from other kith; d) knowledge of how to channel souls and infuse steel with them (Durgan's forge has adra in it to channel souls; Ondra implies that many souls went into Durgan Steel against her will.)

 

We do not know what killed off Engwithans for good, but we can reasonably infer that doing so was not Ondra's endgame.

 

As for the creation of the gods, Engwithans didn't just do it for themselves, but rather for every kith on Eora. They were afraid other people could find out there were no gods like they had, and that chaos and anarchy would ensue; they created gods and sent missionaries to spread the word and convert the heathen to avoid a perpetual "survival of the fittest" scenario on a global scale.

 

 

2) Is a great question, though. I wondered the same. Ondra implies that the other gods do not know about the circumstances of Abydon's death (you can threaten to reveal it and she gets really mad), as unlikely as that is—then again, not all gods know all the details of the Magran/Woedica conspiration during the Saint's War; what do we know of what the gods know, after all? But really, how could Abydon rebuild a body for himself after dying, and how could he keep going without seeking knowledge of how he had died? Would the other gods just accept that one day he'd show up with a new, mechanical body without asking questions?

 

But yeah, wouldn't they notice that a moon was being pulled toward Eora? Seems like a physically massive happenstance—gotta be seriously blind not to notice it.

Edited March 13, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Romanul]

I have a question, if Abydon was killed and then resurrected/remade with him not even knowing about it. Can we assume the same can be done to Eothas?

[TeraAkron]

Thank you for all your replies....it seems like some insight from devs would be great if possible !

 

I am still utterly confused about a specific question / chain of events:

 

1. Let's assume Engwithans mostly dwindled and became extinct through the process of creation of the gods.

2. Let's assume Ondra's plan was to wipe out any remnants of their civilization (buildings, memorials etc) by pulling down the small moon - which FAILED

 

then...

 

3. What did the Eyeless actually do the Engwithans? Did Ondra command them to destroy Engwithan remains after her first plan failed? Clearly, they did not succeed as Engwithan ruins remained. So who stopped them? What happened, exactly?

[AndreaColombo]

My understanding is that Ondra re-purposed the Eyeless to destroy the Pargrunen dwarves and shut down the White Forge. She didn't want kith to have the ability to infuse souls into steel and have something as powerful as Durgan Steel at their disposal.

 

Not sure why they didn't keep on going against the rest of the Engwithan civilization's remnants, though. I mean, clearly the Leaden Key didn't want the forge reopened as that would attract the Eyeless, who would then destroy everything including their precious machinery (thus thwarting their plans.) But why the Eyeless didn't destroy that stuff when they destroyed the forge is indeed unclear.

[house2fly]

 

 

3. What did the Eyeless actually do the Engwithans? Did Ondra command them to destroy Engwithan remains after her first plan failed? Clearly, they did not succeed as Engwithan ruins remained. So who stopped them? What happened, exactly?

I doubt the eyeless did anything to the Engwithans, since they were either gone or all but gone by then(I figure the process of creating the gods consumed, say, 99.9% of Engwithans and the rest stayed behind as emissaries of the new religion or to protect the secret like Thaos).  I'd imagine the eyeless serve as Ondra's version of the Leaden Key, destroying anyone who acquires dangerous knowledge like the Pargrunen at Durgan's Battery- the problem being that now Durgan's Battery is back up and knowledge of it is spreading, the Eyeless would cause a lot of damage in the process of covering it up.

 

As for not destroying the Engwithan ruins, my own theory is that Ondra decided to preserve them in regret for what happened to Abydon, and that's when the Glanfathans were brought in to protect them.