Multiclassing ideas

[Elric Galad]

Bump.

 

This topic is too interesting for PoE 2 to be abandonned.

 

I would really love to see real multiclassing introduced in PoE 2 but I totally agree it wouldn't have been wise to aďd in PoE. Now, how to do this is the big question.

[rjshae]

I'd rather see some race-specific class options that reproduce elements of multi-classing.

[Odd Hermit]

They added the class talents that're mini versions of existing class's abilities. Those are neat, the issue being that some of them suck and there aren't very many. If they were better, and there were more of them, we could have something akin to multiclass without the nightmarish balance aspect.

 

I'd love to give a Wael priest a mini per-encounter Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff instead of the missiles that basically just can't do relevant damage beyond the early game. (On that note, some of the Priest Deity stuff is terrible as well.)

 

 

I'm not against actual multiclassing either, but it'd clearly be far more difficult to balance.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Odd Hermit

[Elric Galad]

I won't be too worried about balance. This is a wish for PoE 2. They have a whole set of game mechanics now. Introduce a new functionality is a lot less complicated than what they already did, even with such a complex thing as Multiclassing.

 

In my opinion, multiclass would improve build diversity AND party diversity. With a multiclassed character, you should be able to cover some party role without pure class. The best example is priest : multiclassing should enable covering priest role (affliction, healing, rez and buff) without including a priest. Not as well as a full priest for sure.

 

Another thing is about commitment :

With a class system, you trade commitment versus unique abilities.

 

With current talent system, the abilities you pick are neither unique (almost everybody can pick them) nor commiting (you may take 8 multiclass talent and unlock the "jack of all trade" achievement, yeah !).

 

Multiclass should come at a cost, and be restricted to 1 or 2 options max. Then it would feel commiting and unique.

 

Paying Multiclass with talents (instead of main class level) might be the way to go by the way. Maybe this system should just be expended.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Fenixp]

I have absolutely zero references on this, but I do believe that the very reason why dual/multiclassing was introduced into DnD in the first place was due to inherent lack of character customization flexibility up to about the third iteration.

 

I'm not sure if it was the basic set of original DnD or something even older than that, but character creation in the roots of pen and paper roleplaying was entirely reliant on dice rolls and further development was more or less fixed with extremely limited customization. Which, all in all, turned out to be rather boring, so ways of more in-depth customization were developed, including stuff like multi-classing.

 

With a system entirely constructed around customization with very few aspects actually being fixed about character development, I don't think we really need multi-classing since characters are no longer defined by their class - they're mainly defined by what player wants them to be with classes lending them unique gameplay elements and flavor. Drop that and you essentially end up with a classless system, which is also a solution I would personally opt for instead of a multiclass system, since the only advantage of multiclassing over classless is nostalgia... And that's not much of an advantage at all.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Fenixp

[Elric Galad]

I have absolutely zero references on this, but I do believe that the very reason why dual/multiclassing was introduced into DnD in the first place was due to inherent lack of character customization flexibility up to about the third iteration.

 

I'm not sure if it was the basic set of original DnD or something even older than that, but character creation in the roots of pen and paper roleplaying was entirely reliant on dice rolls and further development was more or less fixed with extremely limited customization. Which, all in all, turned out to be rather boring, so ways of more in-depth customization were developed, including stuff like multi-classing.

 

With a system entirely constructed around customization with very few aspects actually being fixed about character development, I don't think we really need multi-classing since characters are no longer defined by their class - they're mainly defined by what player wants them to be with classes lending them unique gameplay elements and flavor. Drop that and you essentially end up with a classless system, which is also a solution I would personally opt for instead of a multiclass system, since the only advantage of multiclassing over classless is nostalgia... And that's not much of an advantage at all.

Honnestly, I don't find PoE system to be that customizable. Sure, you have different build, and there is freedom inside class, but the most important trait of your character, by far, is still his class. Talents are free, but few of them are real gamechangers. For example, barbarian is still defined by carnage, and druid by his spells.

 

I think it is good like this. I like party synergy based on complementarity. I like the idea of getting unique abilities that you get by commitment and long-term development.

 

I prefer systems with classes.

Or to be precise, I prefer system with class for party games and classless for single character game like Skyrim.

I think it's more epic to have different characters following different specialized paths. Also because it's related to usual fantasy setting. Furthermore, I can't think of a single balanced classless system.

 

But the drawback of classes is that around 50% of your abilities are determined, and the remaining 50% have often a few optimal ways inside a class.

 

Basically you currently have around 11 characters with variations.

 

Introducing a second trait equally meaningfull (secondary class) would open more possibility, but your commitment will stay meaningfull.

 

Because class system is about that : meaningfull commitment.

 

Basically, my intuition is that infinite choice is equal to no choice. Either your character ends up with a lot of random abilities (not epic) or only a few very similar and class-like builds will emerge, the rest will be subpar.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Elric Galad

[jsaving]

And here I was thinking that most people would like to see multiclassing introduced . I must strongly agree that current system is really flexible, with design goals achieved, at least those that I remember. And that means no trap builds, so every class, race and stat distribution is viable and fun, making each attribute meaningful for every class and allowing for a range diversity of builds within any given class. At the same time POTD mode is challenging enough, at least for me. If only level experience threshold was exponential...but that's offtopic. Those things make up for lack multiclassing, but I'm still interested if you have any ideas about sensible ways of doing it, if it had to be done for some reason?

Multiclassing should *never* be introduced just because someone decreed it "had to be done".  It should only be done if it makes the game better -- and it should inform every stage of the class building process lest abusive combinations be introduced.   

 

Personally, I'd like to see a 3e-type system in which people can pick which class they want to level up in, every time they level up.  It's true that people in 3e could create overpowered characters by grabbing low-level abilities like evasion and divine grace whose power was inexplicably untethered to class level, but that just means the 3e devs gave out those abilities too soon and made them too strong -- it isn't an indictment of flexible multiclassing as a whole.

Edited May 19, 2016 by jsaving