A bit of a disappointment but at the same time a great RPG

[Fenixp]

I think what he is getting at is that you don't need to hardly ever use magic as you can get away with just using 2 tanks and firearms in a party of six (even on POTD).

 

But magic can still be used effectively, you just don't need it.

Isn't that a good thing? Why would I want to be locked to only having a certain party composition?

[brindle88]

 

I think what he is getting at is that you don't need to hardly ever use magic as you can get away with just using 2 tanks and firearms in a party of six (even on POTD).But magic can still be used effectively, you just don't need it.

Isn't that a good thing? Why would I want to be locked to only having a certain party composition?

If you position 2 tanks correctly then have the rest of your party using ranged weapons even if they are spell casters you won't need to use your magic. You can win 90% of battles by doing this! maybe cast 1 spell sometimes.

[archangel979]

Yeah, we're a bunch of lazy bastards. I'll tell you what, archangel, you're still welcome. This is a great place to discuss games and, if you want to do so, feel free. When we get into calling 'people' ignorant or whatnot, then you're going to end having posts gulaged. I say this to you in this thread so other folks can see it as perhaps clarifying how this forum works. We pride ourselves and letting folks speak their minds and blow off steam. ...And I'd already let at least one report in thread slide before a bunch of people (not just you) had their posts gulaged.

 

What I'm getting at is that it's okay to rebut someone's argument or attack their position. We just don't want folks to be the object of personal ridicule. I'll often edit out these things and leave the rest of the post, but if it gets to be too much of a chore, I'll remove the whole thing. In this case, I'm not the moderator who axed the posts, but I agree with the one who did completely.

 

So, go to the Codex and blow off some steam, but if you want to come back later and duke it out with folks, we're here and we'll welcome you. :Cant's slapping archangel on the back icon:

 

Meanwhile, having hopefully clarified the situation, I'll ask you to take further discussion about moderating to PMs. You can always PM one of the mods to personally argue your case.

 

Once again, I'll keep my opinions about the topic to myself.

Zenbane was trolling and only I was punished for responding to a troll.

You are right, I am not going to leave but I am going to ignore trolls from now on.

Edited December 9, 2015 by archangel979

[archangel979]

Where on earth did this crazy idea that d&d was a good / elegant system come from?

I started playing early eighties, and I absolutely love it and its various iterations, my life would have been poorer without it.

But a good system? Really folks? For its time it was fantastic, visionary I dare say thanks to Mr Gygax. But looking back, there are huge faults with the system and its offshoots especially when it was roped into video game service. Pillars is far superior and indeed more elegant. People who say otherwise really need to take their rose tinted glasses off occasionally. May even see things clearer.

Not suggesting that Pillars is perfect, far from it, but compared to d&d, it's far better.

Actually I argued that AD&D was interesting while PoE was elegant. I don't know where you read that AD&D was elegant.

[archangel979]

Funny, on forums I'm usually on you'd have been banned for a month, others would have been warned, and the thread closed.

 

Personally I find moderation here to be a bit to relaxed.

Is this a North Korean forum?

[rheingold]

 

Where on earth did this crazy idea that d&d was a good / elegant system come from?I started playing early eighties, and I absolutely love it and its various iterations, my life would have been poorer without it.But a good system? Really folks? For its time it was fantastic, visionary I dare say thanks to Mr Gygax. But looking back, there are huge faults with the system and its offshoots especially when it was roped into video game service. Pillars is far superior and indeed more elegant. People who say otherwise really need to take their rose tinted glasses off occasionally. May even see things clearer.Not suggesting that Pillars is perfect, far from it, but compared to d&d, it's far better.

Actually I argued that AD&D was interesting while PoE was elegant. I don't know where you read that AD&D was elegant.

Think we are getting to caught up in word play that doesn't really mean anything.

Right: plain English here I come.

D&d was badly designed and a poor base to translate to video games. It was far from perfect and made little or no sense. There were a couple of power builds and most of everything else was sub par. Spellcasters were terrible for large chunks of the game, some for the whole game, while others became boring time stop, wail of the banshee spamming gods eventually. (Before you accuse me of hating d&d please read my previous post about it being a wonderful visionary system that was a product of its time.)

[rheingold]

While I'm here, does anyone else get "your post has been submitted to quickly, please re submit"

The forum then hangs up and then finally submits all the darn posts.

Or just me

Edited December 9, 2015 by rheingold

[brindle88]

 

Yeah, we're a bunch of lazy bastards. I'll tell you what, archangel, you're still welcome. This is a great place to discuss games and, if you want to do so, feel free. When we get into calling 'people' ignorant or whatnot, then you're going to end having posts gulaged. I say this to you in this thread so other folks can see it as perhaps clarifying how this forum works. We pride ourselves and letting folks speak their minds and blow off steam. ...And I'd already let at least one report in thread slide before a bunch of people (not just you) had their posts gulaged.What I'm getting at is that it's okay to rebut someone's argument or attack their position. We just don't want folks to be the object of personal ridicule. I'll often edit out these things and leave the rest of the post, but if it gets to be too much of a chore, I'll remove the whole thing. In this case, I'm not the moderator who axed the posts, but I agree with the one who did completely.So, go to the Codex and blow off some steam, but if you want to come back later and duke it out with folks, we're here and we'll welcome you. :Cant's slapping archangel on the back icon:Meanwhile, having hopefully clarified the situation, I'll ask you to take further discussion about moderating to PMs. You can always PM one of the mods to personally argue your case.Once again, I'll keep my opinions about the topic to myself.

Zenbane was trolling and only I was punished for responding to a troll.You are right, I am not going to leave but I am going to ignore trolls from now on.

I thought I was the only one who he argued with but after reading a lot of the threads he his in he seems to be at war with half the users on this forum. Edited December 9, 2015 by brindle88

[rheingold]

I absolutely hate people who compare Internet forums to incredibly repressive dangerous regimes or historical mass genocides. Suggest they get an education and learn the difference between posting on a forum and the holocaust. Sorry mods, feel free to step in, but really it's pathetic and offensive.

[archangel979]

I absolutely hate people who compare Internet forums to incredibly repressive dangerous regimes or historical mass genocides. Suggest they get an education and learn the difference between posting on a forum and the holocaust. Sorry mods, feel free to step in, but really it's pathetic and offensive.

And I hate even more people that try to push their moral authority on me and try to limit my freedom of expression. Especially around superfluous stuff like talking about games. 

[archangel979]

 

 

Where on earth did this crazy idea that d&d was a good / elegant system come from?I started playing early eighties, and I absolutely love it and its various iterations, my life would have been poorer without it.But a good system? Really folks? For its time it was fantastic, visionary I dare say thanks to Mr Gygax. But looking back, there are huge faults with the system and its offshoots especially when it was roped into video game service. Pillars is far superior and indeed more elegant. People who say otherwise really need to take their rose tinted glasses off occasionally. May even see things clearer.Not suggesting that Pillars is perfect, far from it, but compared to d&d, it's far better.

Actually I argued that AD&D was interesting while PoE was elegant. I don't know where you read that AD&D was elegant.

Think we are getting to caught up in word play that doesn't really mean anything.

Right: plain English here I come.

D&d was badly designed and a poor base to translate to video games. It was far from perfect and made little or no sense. There were a couple of power builds and most of everything else was sub par. Spellcasters were terrible for large chunks of the game, some for the whole game, while others became boring time stop, wail of the banshee spamming gods eventually. (Before you accuse me of hating d&d please read my previous post about it being a wonderful visionary system that was a product of its time.)

 

While AD&D had its quirks and I prefer later incarnations of same system I still think it gave us a better basis for a cool cRPG than what PoE has. 

The abuse of spells is what made it fun and special. 

Personally I not married to the idea that spellcasters need to be better than fighters, if Obsidian wants to give fighters ultimate power equal to IE games mages let them, I just want that kind of fun game experience. In ToB you could make a sorcerer that would combine Time Stop with Improved Alaricity, and then proceed to fire off 10 spells before Time Stop ended. And still ToB was fun and challenging. Fighters has 10 attacks per round that all did max damage and other classes could be kited in combination of best gear in the game due to Use magic Item epic ability. 

 

Now that I said the above, I still would prefer if Magic is the cause of those Epic abilities because it is called Magic and makes more sense that it allows that instead of some epic martial prowess. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was a cool movie, but I don't want that in my western RPGs. I am happy Fighters are tough as possible and hit like a truck many times per round while Magic gets to do the extra stuff. PoE in its current state lacks cool spells from lvl 1 to whatever base game had (have not played expansions yet, waiting for both parts to be released). 

Edited December 9, 2015 by archangel979

[Sedrefilos]

archangel979: anti-Pillars posting in Pillars forums since 2013. He has found the meaning to his life, people. Don't spoil it for him

[archangel979]

archangel979: anti-Pillars posting in Pillars forums since 2013. He has found the meaning to his life, people. Don't spoil it for him

That is not true. I did positive posts as well when the game deserved it. But most of the time I do analysis of the game systems as those interest me more than story. It is not my problem that people don't agree with me and see that only as negative.

I am sure devs like to ready more detailed responses more than "I love the game." 

Edited December 9, 2015 by archangel979

[Sedrefilos]

 

archangel979: anti-Pillars posting in Pillars forums since 2013. He has found the meaning to his life, people. Don't spoil it for him

That is not true. I did positive posts as well when the game deserved it. But most of the time I do analysis of the game systems as those interest me more than story. It is not my problem that people don't agree with me and see that only as negative.

I am sure devs like to ready more detailed responses more than "I love the game." 

 

From what I remeber from the threads I participated, your posts are mostly about how the game sucks and how DnD and IE games are objectively superior and Pillars should better become one while talking angrily and many times offensively to people who disagree with you or Sensuki (like you're a knight sworn allegience to him).  This is not contructive criticism, is childish hate-talk.

 

Untill now, you should have accepted that Pillars is its own thing and will never be an IE exact copy that you desire. If you can't, it's your problem; this game is not for you, leave the forums to people who are interested in it and can make useful debates.

 

If one doesen't like a game, they ignore it and play something they enjoy. You obviously don't like it - on the contrary, despise it. Just move on mate.

[archangel979]

 

 

archangel979: anti-Pillars posting in Pillars forums since 2013. He has found the meaning to his life, people. Don't spoil it for him

That is not true. I did positive posts as well when the game deserved it. But most of the time I do analysis of the game systems as those interest me more than story. It is not my problem that people don't agree with me and see that only as negative.

I am sure devs like to ready more detailed responses more than "I love the game." 

 

From what I remeber from the threads I participated, your posts are mostly about how the game sucks and how DnD and IE games are objectively superior and Pillars should better become one while talking angrily and many times offensively to people who disagree with you or Sensuki (like you're a knight sworn allegience to him).  This is not contructive criticism, is childish hate-talk.

 

Untill now, you should have accepted that Pillars is its own thing and will never be an IE exact copy that you desire. If you can't, it's your problem; this game is not for you, leave the forums to people who are interested in it and can make useful debates.

 

If one doesen't like a game, they ignore it and play something they enjoy. You obviously don't like it - on the contrary, despise it. Just move on mate.

 

After release I didn't do this. Personally I give the game 8.5 score, so it hardly sucks. 

I did criticise it a lot during beta but that was based on other people playing it. And that was all mostly theorycrafting. And I was more critical towards it than I was after release or now. 

 

What makes me mad is that after 17 years I still didn't get a worthy successor to BG games. I expected too much from PoE and that made me mad at the game. Objectively it is a good game and overall for me best Obsidian game so far (Kotor 2 had better NPCs, SoZ had better map exploration, MotB better story, NWN2 OC better stronghold but none of them as a whole package are better than PoE). 

[brindle88]

 

 

 

archangel979: anti-Pillars posting in Pillars forums since 2013. He has found the meaning to his life, people. Don't spoil it for him

 

That is not true. I did positive posts as well when the game deserved it. But most of the time I do analysis of the game systems as those interest me more than story. It is not my problem that people don't agree with me and see that only as negative.

I am sure devs like to ready more detailed responses more than "I love the game."

From what I remeber from the threads I participated, your posts are mostly about how the game sucks and how DnD and IE games are objectively superior and Pillars should better become one while talking angrily and many times offensively to people who disagree with you or Sensuki (like you're a knight sworn allegience to him). This is not contructive criticism, is childish hate-talk.

 

Untill now, you should have accepted that Pillars is its own thing and will never be an IE exact copy that you desire. If you can't, it's your problem; this game is not for you, leave the forums to people who are interested in it and can make useful debates.

 

If one doesen't like a game, they ignore it and play something they enjoy. You obviously don't like it - on the contrary, despise it. Just move on mate.

After release I didn't do this. Personally I give the game 8.5 score, so it hardly sucks.

I did criticise it a lot during beta but that was based on other people playing it. And that was all mostly theorycrafting. And I was more critical towards it than I was after release or now.

 

What makes me mad is that after 17 years I still didn't get a worthy successor to BG games. I expected too much from PoE and that made me mad at the game. Objectively it is a good game and overall for me best Obsidian game so far (Kotor 2 had better NPCs, SoZ had better map exploration, MotB better story, NWN2 OC better stronghold but none of them as a whole package are better than PoE).

You don't have to explain yourself to them. Mate I have been attacked by quite a lot of people who frequent these forums (actually only two people). They do it because they think " they own " the forum. They want to be " the big men" in the forum. Just say whatever you want.

 

Having said this I do honestly feel sorry for the mods on this forum.

Edited December 9, 2015 by brindle88

[Zenbane]

 

I absolutely hate people who compare Internet forums to incredibly repressive dangerous regimes or historical mass genocides. Suggest they get an education and learn the difference between posting on a forum and the holocaust. Sorry mods, feel free to step in, but really it's pathetic and offensive.

And I hate even more people that try to push their moral authority on me and try to limit my freedom of expression. Especially around superfluous stuff like talking about games.

 

 

Spam and ad hominem attacks are unintelligent forms of expression that are against the EULA that you agreed to when you signed up to post under what is clearly meant to be an ironic forum name, "archangel." You call the Mod's nazi's and compare the forum to North Korea - not because you are presenting smart thoughts that are being silenced, but because you can't properly handle your terrible ideas being countered by intellectual people thus resort to emotional outrage which ends up getting justifiably deleted.

 

And then you demand the removal of posts that made you backflip in to an emotional mess. You literally want the the posts of people who make you angry to be deleted, and your argument is because your hate-filled speech that followed was deleted.  Your ideas are not what is being censored, but you did cry for the Mods to remove ideas that cause you to hate. That is true mindset of a "nazi" which is yet another hilarious irony.

 

It is not a moral authority that is being pushed upon you, it is an intellectual baseline.

 

 

 

The abuse of spells is what made it fun and special.

 

Right, so unless you can exploit a game with a feature, then you will ridicule it as not being "interesting." You argue against PoE because in your world, elegant is bad and interesting in good - and apparently where you come from something can't be both elegant and interesting. Yet here you are referring to the one example to back up all your rants in a way that literally praises your ability to abuse something that you call "interesting and good."

 

 

 

archangel979: anti-Pillars posting in Pillars forums since 2013. He has found the meaning to his life, people. Don't spoil it for him

 

This is the only thing that makes sense of the last 3 pages of terribleness lol

[archangel979]

I won't feed the troll anymore so I will just correct what you mistakenly or intentionally presented as false. 

1. I didn't call this forum North Korea but the one that other poster mentioned where people are banned and topics closed for daring to say negative things about a game. My guess would be those are Bethesda or Bioware forums. 

2. My post that was deleted was no more or less "terrible" than what you wrote and I answered. You didn't even see it so I go no clue why are you even commenting it. The reason I called mods nazi is exactly because that post was deleted while yours that was of similar quality was left standing. That says double standards on these forums. 

 

3. You keep bringing personal insults into this which this last post of yours is full of. You keep derailing the topic from what we talked about before you appeared. That is why you are a troll that is for some reason left to do so without punishment. This is why I called you to Codex, there at least I can troll you back and you got no mod protection as mods don't interfere in such a way. 

EDIT:

4. As for my name, don't assume you know me. Or what I done in life. Or why I chose such a name.

Edited December 9, 2015 by archangel979

[Zenbane]

You called the moderators Nazis, which is a personal attack, and they did not personally attack you. You called me clueless, which is a personal attack, & I had not personally attacked you. I did see some of your posts before they were deleted and they were filled with hate. Other people saw them as well which is why someone said you would normally be banned if this forum was truly strict.

 

You are confusing freedom of expression with freedom to be terrible.

[PrimeJunta]

Actually I argued that AD&D was interesting while PoE was elegant. I don't know where you read that AD&D was elegant.

That argument has more merit.

 

AD&D is unquestionably more interesting than PoE. How could it not be, it represents nearly 20 years of stuff piled on by a huge number of people?

 

What I at least object to is the contention that design elegance and interestingness or richness are opposed goals. Things can be elegantly designed yet complex, expressive, and rich. Classical Arabic for example -- it has a beautifully simple and logical grammar and way of deriving meanings from roots, yet is as rich, expressive, and, yes, interesting as any language you might care to name.

Edited December 9, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[archangel979]

You called the moderators Nazis, which is a personal attack, and they did not personally attack you. You called me clueless, which is a personal attack, & I had not personally attacked you. I did see some of your posts before they were deleted and they were filled with hate. Other people saw them as well which is why someone said you would normally be banned if this forum was truly strict.

 

You are confusing freedom of expression with freedom to be terrible.

I am only guilty for calling mods Nazi which was a extreme emotional reaction to unfair situation. Everything else is a construct of your brain. Edited December 9, 2015 by archangel979

[archangel979]

 

Actually I argued that AD&D was interesting while PoE was elegant. I don't know where you read that AD&D was elegant.

That argument has more merit.

 

AD&D is unquestionably more interesting than PoE. How could it not be, it represents nearly 20 years of stuff piled on by a huge number of people?

 

What I at least object to is the contention that design elegance and interestingness or richness are opposed goals. Things can be elegantly designed yet complex, expressive, and rich. Classical Arabic for example -- it has a beautifully simple and logical grammar and way of deriving meanings from roots, yet is as rich, expressive, and, yes, interesting as any language you might care to name.

 

I agree that they can. But PoE is not such an example. Also I talked in absolutes in my posts as people before me also just mentioned one thing. I said that between interesting and elegant I would rather choose interesting. Edited December 9, 2015 by archangel979

[PrimeJunta]

I agree that they can. But PoE is not such an example. Also I talked in absolutes in my posts as people before me also just mentioned one thing. I said that between interesting and elegant I would rather choose interesting.

It's not a binary choice.

 

I'm willing to trade off a certain amount of elegance for a certain amount of interesting, and vice versa. I suspect you are too, although the specifics of our respective equations may vary.

 

As it is, IMO Pillars is considerably more interesting than BG1, considerably less interesting than BG2, and more elegant than either of them. I much prefer Pillars base mechanics to AD&D base mechanics (which is something like saying I prefer a cheeseburger to being punched repeatedly in the face), and believe that Pillars has the potential to become very interesting indeed, given sufficient time and effort.

[archangel979]

 

I agree that they can. But PoE is not such an example. Also I talked in absolutes in my posts as people before me also just mentioned one thing. I said that between interesting and elegant I would rather choose interesting.

It's not a binary choice.

 

I'm willing to trade off a certain amount of elegance for a certain amount of interesting, and vice versa. I suspect you are too, although the specifics of our respective equations may vary.

 

As it is, IMO Pillars is considerably more interesting than BG1, considerably less interesting than BG2, and more elegant than either of them. I much prefer Pillars base mechanics to AD&D base mechanics (which is something like saying I prefer a cheeseburger to being punched repeatedly in the face), and believe that Pillars has the potential to become very interesting indeed, given sufficient time and effort.

 

They had 17 years to find a perfect formula, unlike you I am not very optimistic about it. BG1EE with SCS mod beats anything in PoE except some story parts. PoE does have some more mature quests and more C&C in quests. NPCs have more content but when most of them are so uninteresting I rather have Bg1 NPCs with funny shouts and no quests. Edited December 9, 2015 by archangel979

[PrimeJunta]

BG1EE incorporates all of the mechanical complexity of BG2, and SCS incorporates years of work by a dedicated fanbase.

 

Even so, personally I disagree, I don't find BG1EE+SCS particularly interesting.