MECHANICS - Chanter interactions with Might and Intelligence

[dam]

Hey up everyone,

 

 

So, I've been starting a new POTD playthrough this weekend with a limited party consisting of Eder (now that I think of it, maybe I should ditch him and create an Adventurer...), PC (wizard) and a Chanter.

 

 

The Chanter is built to be a capable offtank, with high intelligence to offer a larger Chant radius.

 

 

Now, I have a problem with Might and Intelligence :

- a higher might does not benefit chants except for the ONE exception

- a higher intelligence is actually detrimental to EVERY chant

 

With regards to Might, Chants provide bonii based on static values :

- the first level chant gives +10 will and fortitude , regardless of your Might

- the 3rd level chant gives +25% burn damage, regardless of your Might

- the 3rd level chant deals X burn damage per second, scaling with your Might

- the 4th level chant gives a 30 point damage shield, regardless of your Might

 

As for Intelligence, it gets even worse :

- the 3rd level chant deals X burn damage over Y seconds, scaling with your Intelligence : this is a bad thing because it means the higher your intelligence, the longer it will take for the total damage to apply !

- the 4th level chant gives a 30 point damage shield for Y seconds, scaling with your Intelligence : again this is bad thing because it means the shield will take that much longer to refresh

 

 

One would consider that as far as Chanters are concerned, Intelligence needs to work in 2 different ways :

- Chants which provide party buffs should last longer at higher Intelligence scores, except for the 4th level shield, wherein a high Intelligence would cause it to last less, and thus be refreshed more often

- Chants which apply enemy debuffs should last longer at higher Intelligence scores, except for the 3rd level burn damage AOE, wherein a high Intelligence would cause the chant to be shorter, thus applying the damage faster and more often

 

As for Might, it is my belief that Chants should also scale with Might :

- better buffs

- better debuffs

- scaling damage % on the burn damage for weapons aura

 

 

 

Thoughts, anyone ?

 

[Dinky Dino]

To add to this list:

 

- Summons have a time limit that isn't affected by your INT at all

[Killyox]

Nope. Int increases dmg.

 

The total dmg goes up while dmg per sec remains the same.

 

For example 100 dmg over 10 seconds with +50% from Int would be 150dmg over 15 sec. Total dmg goes up but dmg per second remains the same. Then if you have high might it gets boosted by that. 

 

That's why int + might combo is crazy for DOTs.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Killyox

[dam]

To add to this list:

 

- Summons have a time limit that isn't affected by your INT at all

 

Wait what, it isn't ??

 

Meh -.-

[dam]

Nope. Int increases dmg.

 

The total dmg goes up while dmg per sec remains the same.

 

For example 100 dmg over 10 seconds with +50% from Int would be 150dmg over 15 sec. Total dmg goes up but dmg per second remains the same. Then if you have high might it gets boosted by that. 

 

That's why int + might combo is crazy for DOTs.

 

 

Although I would concede the point in the case of Druids, whose spell supply is limited, Chanters can sing forever.

 

Case 1, normal int (I'm using random numbers here) :

- 100 damage over 20 seconds

Song over ? Chant again for 20 seconds :

- 100 damage over 20 seconds

 

Case 2, godlike int (again random numbers) :

- 200 damage over 40 seconds

 

Now unless I am sorely mistaken, you get the very same damage output.

Therefore, for Chanters, I put forth that Int doesn't increase Chant damage.

 

 

 

One could argue in favour of a catastrophic scenario whereby your Chanter gets gibbed, so a longer duration Chant means while your Chanter is down, you'll get more damage done.

But then, that seems situational to me, and that will not happen if you allocate these Int points to Resolve and Constitution.

 

Edit: actually scratch that, I think the song's debuff is applied continually over its duration, not once as a long-lasting effect, so when your Chanter goes down, regardless of Int, the debuff wears off.

Edited September 21, 2015 by dam

[Dinky Dino]

 

Wait what, it isn't ??

 

Meh -.-

 

 

It isn't I tested it with the wryms and they lasted 25 seconds.

 

Considering I timed it on a chanter with stacked int at around 25, it should have lasted well into 40 seconds.

 

Not sure if if it's working as intended so I asked in the tech support forums.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Dinky Dino

[gkathellar]

 

Nope. Int increases dmg.

 

The total dmg goes up while dmg per sec remains the same.

 

For example 100 dmg over 10 seconds with +50% from Int would be 150dmg over 15 sec. Total dmg goes up but dmg per second remains the same. Then if you have high might it gets boosted by that. 

 

That's why int + might combo is crazy for DOTs.

 

 

Although I would concede the point in the case of Druids, whose spell supply is limited, Chanters can sing forever.

 

Case 1, normal int (I'm using random numbers here) :

- 100 damage over 20 seconds

Song over ? Chant again for 20 seconds :

- 100 damage over 20 seconds

 

Case 2, godlike int (again random numbers) :

- 200 damage over 40 seconds

 

Now unless I am sorely mistaken, you get the very same damage output.

Therefore, for Chanters, I put forth that Int doesn't increase Chant damage.

 

 

 

One could argue in favour of a catastrophic scenario whereby your Chanter gets gibbed, so a longer duration Chant means while your Chanter is down, you'll get more damage done.

But then, that seems situational to me, and that will not happen if you allocate these Int points to Resolve and Constitution.

 

Edit: actually scratch that, I think the song's debuff is applied continually over its duration, not once as a long-lasting effect, so when your Chanter goes down, regardless of Int, the debuff wears off.

 

That assumes your Chant just uses that single phrase. The whole point of Int for a Chanter is that it increases the chant's linger duration, allowing you to use two chants at once.

[KDubya]

With Kana I can have him sing the burning weapon chant and then the frighten chant and he starts back with the burning weapon chant before it wears off. His higher intellect is what lets him do that. A level three chant lingers long enough to fit a level two in with it.

[dam]

I'm not entirely sure preventing a 3-4 seconds gap in-between songs is worth 8 stat points altogether.

 

 

I certainly would love for the Chant and Invocation mechanics to be reworked so they actually benefit from higher stats.

Summons could inherit a portion of your pros and cons from stats, chants could scale up (or down!).

[gkathellar]

I certainly would love for the Chant and Invocation mechanics to be reworked so they actually benefit from higher stats.

Summons could inherit a portion of your pros and cons from stats, chants could scale up (or down!).

 

There are plenty of ways they already do benefit: Int gives you AoE size and linger duration, Perception gives you accuracy on offensive phrases, and Might affects the damage of the (small number of) damage phrases. I could stand to see Dexterity affect the ratio of phrase:linger, and a greater variety of better phrases, but aside from that, I think the attribute interactions are fine.

 

This isn't really the big problem with Chanters, anyway. Rather, the main issue is and has been that higher-level invocations are harder to access in combat, and that higher level phrases decrease your ability to access any invocations whatsoever. Effectively, a chanter is incentivized not to use the abilities they gain as they level up. That's bad.

[dam]

 

I certainly would love for the Chant and Invocation mechanics to be reworked so they actually benefit from higher stats.

Summons could inherit a portion of your pros and cons from stats, chants could scale up (or down!).

 

There are plenty of ways they already do benefit: Int gives you AoE size and linger duration, Perception gives you accuracy on offensive phrases, and Might affects the damage of the (small number of) damage phrases. I could stand to see Dexterity affect the ratio of phrase:linger, and a greater variety of better phrases, but aside from that, I think the attribute interactions are fine.

 

This isn't really the big problem with Chanters, anyway. Rather, the main issue is and has been that higher-level invocations are harder to access in combat, and that higher level phrases decrease your ability to access any invocations whatsoever. Effectively, a chanter is incentivized not to use the abilities they gain as they level up. That's bad.

 

 

 

Agree to disagree here.

 

The 4th level shield phrase is, for example, exceedingly badly balanced.

The shield's value does not scale with Might, and it takes longer to refresh at higher Intelligence.

 

I realize that's just the one example, but that is the most poignant and, indeed, the most disappointing seeing it's the ultimate tier of Chants as of now.

 

 

While I do not care overmuch because my heart ever goes to rogues or wizards, in truth Chanters and their stat interactions really need to be looked at.