Just had a question about the logic behind the spirits in Maerwald's hold

[selectandstart]

In Maerwald's hold you see the spirits of the marauder and the soldier before you meet Maerwald. Maerwald seems to be both the marauder and soldier in soul/ spirit, however, so how can you meet them separate from Maerwald? Also, why are some spirits oblivious to your presence, and time? I know Maerwald said that is the difference between spirits and memories, so I'm meeting a memory of a spirit? Are their memories just scattered about?

 

BTW, I'm only at Defiance Bay now, so please hold off on spoilers past that.

[Silent Winter]

I figured it was just a memory (spiritual echo from the past) - one Watcher skill is seeing things like that.

Meeting an actual spirit results in conversation / interaction, whereas seeing this memory thing is only like a story flashback - your choices for what to say to them make it a little interactive but I don't think it makes any real difference to what you see.

[Nakia]

Good question,  selectandstart, if I understand things correctly the Watcher can see spirits and even interact with them to some extent.  The memories are the awakened ones of your past lives.  My guess is you see the spirits but when you meet Maerwald you are dealing with his memories.  

[teknoman2]

as you may have noticed, a watcher can extend his soul in order to come into contact with things around him. he doesnt have to touch something he just has to be in same location. Maerwald, due to his condition, has expanded his soul uncontrollably all around the keep, and you come in contact with the memories of that soul as you walk around

[selectandstart]

I figured it was just a memory (spiritual echo from the past) - one Watcher skill is seeing things like that.

Meeting an actual spirit results in conversation / interaction, whereas seeing this memory thing is only like a story flashback - your choices for what to say to them make it a little interactive but I don't think it makes any real difference to what you see.

 

 

Good question,  selectandstart, if I understand things correctly the Watcher can see spirits and even interact with them to some extent.  The memories are the awakened ones of your past lives.  My guess is you see the spirits but when you meet Maerwald you are dealing with his memories.  

 

 

 

Silent Winter's explanation sounds the same as what I interpreted. You are meeting spirits when you see ethereal beings that are interactive, and acutely aware of the current time, and your presence. Witnessing ethereal beings not aware of the current time, and not very interactive, are just left over spirit "goo", or memories of spirits. Ciphers are able to detect this as well.

 

Nakia's explanation was harder for me to follow (probably because I didn't draw the same conclusion). Are you saying that the ethereal beings you see before Maerwald, but in his hold, are spirits, but when you meet Maerwald himself you are dealing with his memories? Wouldn't that be a problem for Maerwald since he would need his soul/spirit to be inside him else he is a hollowborn? Also, you meet the soldier and marauder separately, and wouldn't the marauder and the soldier need to be the same spirit for his part to make any sense? 

 

I think you are dealing with an awakened spirit that remembers some of it's past live's but that is distinct from memories (as in the limited-interactive ethereal beings, or spirit "goo").

 

Apologies if I misunderstood you.

[teknoman2]

a glanfathan raider raped a dyrwoodan woman durring the broken stone war and got her pregnant, then he died before the child was born

his soul was reincarnated in the child, who's mother taught him to hate glanfathans. that hate was put to good use in the black tree war

then the soul reincarnated into Maerwald, awakened, and all hell broke loose as the 2 previous lives were constantly fighting with each other inside him, driving him mad

the soul may be the same, but each life is different, and the memory and personality the person had in each life remains dormant within the soul. when awakened, the person the soul used to belong to emerges within the mind of the current owner of the soul... not as memories of a past life but as a distinct personality that shares the same body as seen in Aloth

[Nakia]

@ selectandstart. the idea of Maerwald's memories permeating the Keep does make sense to me.  I think the Nine claw  you meet outside the keep may be a spirit and also the mother you meet just before descending into the dungeon.  

 

The subject is not in my opinion a simple one.  If the dwarf on the tree is correct then souls can lose bits of themselves and gain bits of other souls.    Creatures with out an  intelligent or semi[intelligent mind exist.  So I think there is a soul essence that when combined with a mind creates past life memories.

 

I do think that being a Watcher and having an awakened soul are two different things.  

 

Ciphers can see memories of past lives but seem not to be able to react with those.  Their powers are limited I think to current minds. 

[selectandstart]

as you may have noticed, a watcher can extend his soul in order to come into contact with things around him. he doesnt have to touch something he just has to be in same location. Maerwald, due to his condition, has expanded his soul uncontrollably all around the keep, and you come in contact with the memories of that soul as you walk around

 

 

Ok, but that explanation wouldn't cover the memories you see in the buried temple (unless they are spirits, but they don't seem very interactive or aware of their own time). Also, doesn't the throne lady say he has receded his presence?  

Edited May 23, 2015 by selectandstart

[selectandstart]

@ selectandstart. the idea of Maerwald's memories permeating the Keep does make sense to me.  I think the Nine claw  you meet outside the keep may be a spirit and also the mother you meet just before descending into the dungeon.  

 

The subject is not in my opinion a simple one.  If the dwarf on the tree is correct then souls can lose bits of themselves and gain bits of other souls.    Creatures with out an  intelligent or semi[intelligent mind exist.  So I think there is a soul essence that when combined with a mind creates past life memories.

 

I do think that being a Watcher and having an awakened soul are two different things.  

 

Ciphers can see memories of past lives but seem not to be able to react with those.  Their powers are limited I think to current minds. 

 

 

"The subject is not in my opinion a simple one.  If the dwarf on the tree is correct then souls can lose bits of themselves and gain bits of other souls.    Creatures with out an  intelligent or semi[intelligent mind exist.  So I think there is a soul essence that when combined with a mind creates past life memories."

 

So you are saying that you are meeting bits and pieces of spirits when you see ethereal beings that seem like they are stuck in another time?

 

You don't think the soul itself remembers, but the mind and soul together creates memories?

[Nakia]

Hokay, I didn't write the story so anything I say is just my opinion, me guessing based on what my character does and what happens to him.

 

Yes I am saying that without the memories from the mind that existed at one time the sould would have no memories.  Hmm, not sure that makes sense.

 

Let me try this.

The soul is the essence of all living creatures.  When this essence or energy enters a being that has a thinking  mind, a mind capable of remembering things in some way that memory is implanted on to the soul.  I think this is a natural process and what the amancers are doing is unnatural.  When a soul reincarnates it is still the soul, maybe if the dwarf lady is correct with bits of other souls and maybe losing a bit of itself but predominately the same soul it was hundreds, even thousands of years before.

 

Of course I could be completely wrong.  We should remember that the true gods of PoE are the Obsidian developers.  

[selectandstart]

Hokay, I didn't write the story so anything I say is just my opinion, me guessing based on what my character does and what happens to him.

 

Yes I am saying that without the memories from the mind that existed at one time the sould would have no memories.  Hmm, not sure that makes sense.

 

Let me try this.

The soul is the essence of all living creatures.  When this essence or energy enters a being that has a thinking  mind, a mind capable of remembering things in some way that memory is implanted on to the soul.  I think this is a natural process and what the amancers are doing is unnatural.  When a soul reincarnates it is still the soul, maybe if the dwarf lady is correct with bits of other souls and maybe losing a bit of itself but predominately the same soul it was hundreds, even thousands of years before.

 

Of course I could be completely wrong.  We should remember that the true gods of PoE are the Obsidian developers.  

 

"Hokay, I didn't write the story so anything I say is just my opinion, me guessing based on what my character does and what happens to him."

 

Yea, same here.

 

Since this is a fictional universe; It's all going to be open to interpretation (save for the developers commenting on it). I was just looking for the best explanations I could get that logically fit with everything I had seen so far.

 

"The soul is the essence of all living creatures.  When this essence or energy enters a being that has a thinking  mind, a mind capable of remembering things in some way that memory is implanted on to the soul.  I think this is a natural process and what the amancers are doing is unnatural.  When a soul reincarnates it is still the soul, maybe if the dwarf lady is correct with bits of other souls and maybe losing a bit of itself but predominately the same soul it was hundreds, even thousands of years before."

 

So a soul has memories implanted on it, but it can't "think" in order to remember them?

 

My interpretation is that a soul is basically an ethereal brain that is capable of thinking, feeling, and remembering.

 

The reasons that lead me to believe this are because in my journal, in the quest "Never Far From the Queen", it describes a spirit that talked to me. When I talked to this spirit; He was able to think in order to have a conversation with me. He would have to have the ability to remember what I asked him in order to do this, because he would have to remember what I had asked him. 

 

Also, Hollowborn behave like brain-dead babies that only rely on instinct. This indicates they are born without the ability to think, feel, or remember.

 

edit* So basically in PoE; A brain and a soul are pretty much the same thing.

 

What do you think?

Edited May 23, 2015 by selectandstart

[Nakia]

What I think?  I think we may never know the answers.  

 

As for the spirits we meet IIRC the dwarf woman (sorry my memory fails to remember her name) says that these are lost souls for some reason they fail to return to the cycle at least for a time.   We also know that fragments of souls can be embedded into a an object.  Might that explain some of our meetings?  

 

The reason I do not think that the soul essence or energy is a brain is because it is  in things as simple as ooze or sporlings.  When it is added to kith that are dead the memories seem to die as the body and mind degenerate and the creatures become more or less mindless monsters.

 

As for the Hollowborn I have to turn to modern science.  The human brain is very complex.  Back to fantasy, I think the soul is needed to stimulate the kith brain to grow, develop, respond.  The anamancers tried adding the souls of animals to the hollowborn and at first it seemed to work at least in a small way.  One where the soul of a family pet was added is described in detail.  I assume that pet, a dog I think, is a good and loving pet but when placed in the child/s body it eventually turns feral, viciously feral.  This why I consider what the amancers are doing is unnatural.

 

In the world of PoE I think you need both the soul and the brain to be truly Kith.  The two lock together in some way and can be fragmented.  

 

Do I understand what is going on?  No but I too am trying to make sense of the whole thing.

 

Some people seem to complain because these things are not clearly explained to us but I think the devs did a marvelous job of creating a very complex situation that causes us, the players to think and indulge in these discussions.  Personally I love it.

[Rosveen]

Perhaps the brain influences the soul, the shape it takes for the duration of this life. It takes one appropriate form and can't be easily molded into another. That's why souls ripped from animals did not work properly in human children. Maybe they can be manipulated to fit better, but animancy is too young a science to know how to do this. Maybe if they were intercepted before bonding with the animal, they would be more useful.

 

Or maybe not. There is still a question of why Thaos didn't steal animal souls instead. If my first guess is true, souls of human infants - even fetuses - might be more valuable or powerful in a way. But I thought the souls were taken before entering bodies at all? Or were they whisked away as soon as they bonded with a living being?

Edited May 23, 2015 by Rosveen

[Nakia]

One thing I have overlooked in my musings is the Adra stones.    I just went through the conversation with the Stronghold Steward and she mentions how accommodating Adra is for a soul.  Pillars of Eternity.  Eternal stone, living stone.  Our we overlooking something there?

 

I think  Rosveen has some good points.   I will think on those. 

[teknoman2]

 

as you may have noticed, a watcher can extend his soul in order to come into contact with things around him. he doesnt have to touch something he just has to be in same location. Maerwald, due to his condition, has expanded his soul uncontrollably all around the keep, and you come in contact with the memories of that soul as you walk around

 

 

Ok, but that explanation wouldn't cover the memories you see in the buried temple (unless they are spirits, but they don't seem very interactive or aware of their own time). Also, doesn't the throne lady say he has receded his presence?  

 

he receded his consciousness as Maerwald, not his soul.