The Merciless Hand Talent (Doemenels) - Broken?

[hugin7]

Does this talent actually increase the crit damage multiplier by 0.3 for anyone?  I tested ranged weapons and spells with x1.5 crit damage and found that the talent seems to have no impact on the damage range.

[Exoduss]

Not the first talent that doesnt work in this game , KICKSTARTER FOR THE WIN .

[Daemonjax]

It's hard to test damage in this game.

 

Would be nice if the actual calculation was shown on mouse-over.

 

We'd need to mod a weapon to have the min equal the max damage to properly test.

[hugin7]

It's hard to test damage in this game.

 

Would be nice if the actual calculation was shown on mouse-over.

 

We'd need to mod a weapon to have the min equal the max damage to properly test.

 

It's not that difficult - for example, if a weapon does 13-20 points of damage and has the default x1.5 crit damage, max crits go to 30 points (subtract DR of test target).  Simply attack with a fast weapon while affected by accuracy buffs to see many crits.  Optionally, debuff enemies' resistance for even more crits.

 

For the scenario above, my crits would never go beyond 30 points with or without The Merciless Hand.  If the talent actually worked, there would be numbers as high as 1.8 * 20 = 36 and plenty of crits in the (30, 36] range.  I've tested many data points with ranged weapons and spells.

 

One caveat - I did add/remove talent via cheat console.  It would be helpful if someone who acquired it legitimately confirms my findings before we declare this a bug.

[gkathellar]

It's hard to test damage in this game.

 

Would be nice if the actual calculation was shown on mouse-over.

 

We'd need to mod a weapon to have the min equal the max damage to properly test.

 

There was a thread earlier on this board where someone was testing by doing exactly that. If you're really curious, look it up, see if you can get in touch with the guy.

Edited April 25, 2015 by gkathellar

[peddroelm]

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/

 

seems to only add 0.25 to crit damage not 0.3 (unless the barb I tested against has some crit damage reduction skill/item I didn't noticed) 

 

20 base damage quarterstaff .. 27% might bonus 

 

20 * (1 + 0.27 - 0.5) = 15.4  //   graze   fits with combat log

20 * (1 + 0.27 + 0.5 + X ) = 40.4 // this was the crit

 

But it resolves for X = 0.25 not 0.3 ..  Should've tested with 2 more chars to make sure .. Was to tired, will test again probably tomorrow ..

Edited April 25, 2015 by peddroelm

[hugin7]

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/

 

seems to only add 0.25 to crit damage not 0.3 (unless the barb I tested against has some crit damage reduction skill/item I didn't noticed) 

 

20 base damage quarterstaff .. 27% might bonus 

 

20 * (1 + 0.27 - 0.5) = 15.4  //   graze   fits with combat log

20 * (1 + 0.27 + 0.5 + X ) = 40.4 // this was the crit

 

But it resolves for X = 0.25 not 0.3 ..  Should've tested with 2 more chars to make sure .. Was to tired, will test again probably tomorrow ..

 

Have you tested only with melee weapons?  My tests were with ranged weapons and spells, so it's possible that the talent affects melee weapons only.

[peddroelm]

 

 

Have you tested only with melee weapons?  My tests were with ranged weapons and spells, so it's possible that the talent affects melee weapons only.

 

only a quick test with quarterstaff .. will test with ranged weapons also ..

 

 

Some crit modifier tests

 

 Used char with 39% might bonus.. 20 base damage Resolution Sabre (annihilation extra 50% on crit) & Crossbow. 

 15% fine enchantment (sabre). 20% reckless attack (melee only) . Rabit foot 10% on crits.   

 

 resolution sabre

 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 66.8 // sneak crit perfect

 crossbow

 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 49.8 // sneak crit

 

 add merciless hand

 

 resolution sabre

 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 71.8 // sneak crit 

 crossbow

 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 54.8 /sneak crit

 

NOT broken , just a bit dishonest (25% instead of the 30% listed in description)

Edited April 26, 2015 by peddroelm

[hugin7]

 

 

 

Have you tested only with melee weapons?  My tests were with ranged weapons and spells, so it's possible that the talent affects melee weapons only.

 

only a quick test with quarterstaff .. will test with ranged weapons also ..

 

 

Some crit modifier tests

 

 Used char with 39% might bonus.. 20 base damage Resolution Sabre (annihilation extra 50% on crit) & Crossbow. 

 15% fine enchantment (sabre). 20% reckless attack (melee only) . Rabit foot 10% on crits.   

 

 resolution sabre

 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 66.8 // sneak crit perfect

 crossbow

 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 49.8 // sneak crit

 

 add merciless hand

 

 resolution sabre

 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 71.8 // sneak crit 

 crossbow

 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 54.8 /sneak crit

 

NOT broken , just a bit dishonest (25% instead of the 30% listed in description)

 

 

Are you using the cheat console to add the talent, and if so, which one?  I tried the following:

 

the_merciless_hand

tln_the_merciless_hand_talent

 

The only other difference in our test setup that I can see right away is that I used a war bow as my ranged weapon.

[peddroelm]

tln_the_merciless_hand_talent

[hugin7]

After finally landing a crit outside of the "normal" range, I went back to the drawing board and the issue became obvious...  I apparently spaced out last night and expected the crit multiplier to be an actual, umm, multiplier, on the normal range: damage = (1 + might and other damage bonuses) * (1 + crit multiplier + crit multiplier bonuses).

 

Having reviewed the game mechanics, I recalled that crit bonuses were implemented as stated above - they are additive with all other damage bonuses.  The implication is that crit multipiers are not particularly effective in PoE.  In the above example for the crossbow, the initial damage multiplier is ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 2.49.  A 0.25 crit multiplier bonus brings this to 2.74.  2.74/2.49 = 10% effective damage increase for crits.  If your crit percentage, is, say, ~20%, then your overall effective damage increase is ~2%.

 

On weapons of base damage = 20, a 10% difference is only 2 points, which implies that a large sample size is needed to verify whether the talent has any effect.  Due to the flawed multiplicative formula that I used, I expected more variation and apparently pulled the plug on my initial tests too quickly.  My apologies for the confusion.

 

In conclusion, The Merciless Hand talent is not broken, but offers a only a minor damage increase under most circumstances to a single character.

[gkathellar]

hugin7 and peddroelm, you are gentlemen and scholars both. Thank you for the research.

[peddroelm]

finally gotten around to test it for spells .. It works for spells too   http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/page-4?do=findComment&comment=1691677  (tested some low level direct damage wizard spells)

[Veynn]

Someone should make a PoE damage calculator app. I would pay for one.