How to fix the "Doorway chokepoint" dominant strategy

[View619]

 

 

well, if you dont like chokepoints , dont use it...

 

Again, and for the millionth time - "don't use it" is not an appropriate response to the existence of an overpowered/dominant strategy. If chess had a rule where I could trade my pawns for queens on the first turn, I could surely decide to "not use it" to make the game more fun... but the game would still be poorly designed.

 

 

Sure it is.  This is a single player game.  If someone doesn't like doing something, they shouldn't do it.

 

In the IE games, if I had a full party, I would rarely, if ever, pre-buff, kite, attack outside of LOS, or any other powerful (OP?) tactic.  I would just barrel right on into the fight and make the best of things.  (Usually with as little active input as possible, and I really enjoyed making my own scripts for those games.)

 

But... if I was playing a solo-ironman game, you bet I did everything I could to give myself an advantage (and I needed it).

 

The exploits in the IE games allowed *me* the ability to really enjoy the game in a variety of ways, from ridiculously easy to ridiculously difficult, and everywhere inbetween.

 

In single-player games, players have to accept some small modicum of responsibility for their own behavior in and enjoyment of a game.

 

 

While this is true, using basic strategies should not feel like you are cheesing the system. Right now, things are so bad that creating choke points almost feels like I am cheesing the system, which means the underlying system is not very good.

 

I'll avoid things like using overly powerful items (summons) or drowning myself in gold by looting everything (I pretend inventory limit is a thing), but if the simplest tactics break your game, it's time to go back to the drawing board.

[sim-h]

I agree there should be some sort of rush/push action that a massed group of intelligent or frenzied enemies could use to force through a doorway. Shouldn't be hard to add as there are already spell and other effects for pushing.

 

Dumb enemies should keep getting hacked to pieces at the doorway however. It's only right and proper.

[scrotiemcb]

If I was Obsidian, I would have given every (or nearly every) class an ability which upsets chokepoint positioning, at level 1. Thus would include my idea earlier of being able to walk over prone enemies. This would ensure that pretty much any encounter the player has with kith isn't easily cheesed with positioning tactics.

[Matt516]

If I was Obsidian, I would have given every (or nearly every) class an ability which upsets chokepoint positioning, at level 1. Thus would include my idea earlier of being able to walk over prone enemies. This would ensure that pretty much any encounter the player has with kith isn't easily cheesed with positioning tactics.

 

I don't really think something like that is necessary (or realistic). While there should be some counters to that sort of thing, chokepoint tactics should still be a viable tactic. They are (were) in real life, after all. I just think the AI should be smart enough to realize when it should be on the attack (and thus be vulnerable to this tactic which is fundamentally a defensive tactic) and when it should be content to sit back and let the player come to it.

[Concordance]

For what it's worth, it looks like the Endless Paths seem to be designed with door camping in mind - for both players and enemies. There are numerous encounters with large mobs of enemies right next to doorways, that immediately plug up the doorway when the fight starts.

 

A few examples:

 

Xaurip crowds on levels 2 and 5 right next to doorways, with either large amounts of wurms/archers or multiple high priests. The Champions (tanks) plug up the doorway as soon as the fight starts and the high priests continually heal them while standing out of sight. The fights end up taking place in doorways by default, unless you go out of your way to pull the enemies through.

 

Ogres in narrow pathways on level 3, bodyblocking with their huge hitbox and penetrating knockdowns while the Druid hoses you down with spells. The fight with Zolla has so many ogres, it's effectively impossible to win without abusing doorways unless you have multiple heavily armored offtanks and/or are horribly overleveled.

 

Level 7 has circular rooms filled with blights, standing right next to doorways. Again, unless you deliberately pull them out of the room (and probably end up bugging their AI in the process), this is a chokepoint fight right off the bat with wind blights and/or Adragan spamming spells from behind.

 

...The list goes on. Doorway chokepoints are not a mistake, not a bug, not an exploit or cheese - at least as far as Endless Paths are concerned, they are a deliberate choice in encounter design that players need to go out of their way to avoid taking advantage of.