Ultimate build = highest dps and tankines in 1 char

[Odd Hermit]

 

Tenuous Grasp abuse is indeed a key trick for low level. Without question shadowing beyond can save you from otherwise perilous situation, but so far I haven't seen places you can't really path through without it. It's pretty good tool for ironman though, to reduce bad luck rng.

 

 

 

Tested a tanky variation of the build.

 

It's about the same solo viability as rogue when it has to fight stuff, honestly. It actually took me longer to kill things, though this is using moon godlike.

 

Deep Wounds TBH is a bigger deal than you'd think on PotD.

 

Cipher has some strong combat abilities but they're so heavily reliant on: 1 beating will saves. 2 not being CCed. Rogue's durability overall was higher due to adept evasion - in spite of cipher's higher base deflect. Cipher couldn't keep all drain buffs up all the time so much of the stats boosts were pretty temporary. The focus generation from retal is nice but still found myself running dry + with a low dex build and heavy armor it takes a long time to cast and enemies can sometimes disrupt.

 

Cipher just doesn't dramatically change the way you play solo vs. rogue. It's still going to be reliant on having move speed buffed, dragging enemies, using particular items at key points, etc. etc.

 

I think it's just way easier to go the shadowing beyond route still. The cipher is so much more potent that you'd want to slog through tons of combat with it. It'd add a dramatic amount of play-time necessary to complete a solo run I think.

 

This build wasnt meant for soloing. It works best in small teams like 2-3 people and is very fun to play.

 

Fair enough.

 

I still would say dropping both per and dex is making this character too vulnerable to reflex targeting stuff, which is what many high damage spells in the game are.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[Taoby]

can you do a "how to" like this guide here http://guides.gamepressure.com/pillarsofeternity/guide.asp?ID=29821

 

for that build and how should i start it. espacially the abilities?

[sinister504]

will som

 

Can someone please help me, what would stats look like for op build? he says max/min, but I have 5 points left over after all of that. What would the actual stat breakdown look like?I

All I need is for this to be answered, please help me. I have been asking the same question over and over and nobody has even acknowledged it. I'm sorry if it's a newb question, but I want to use this build and I can't until I know what the actual stat break down is.

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

Tenuous Grasp abuse is indeed a key trick for low level. Without question shadowing beyond can save you from otherwise perilous situation, but so far I haven't seen places you can't really path through without it. It's pretty good tool for ironman though, to reduce bad luck rng.

 

 

 

Tested a tanky variation of the build.

 

It's about the same solo viability as rogue when it has to fight stuff, honestly. It actually took me longer to kill things, though this is using moon godlike.

 

Deep Wounds TBH is a bigger deal than you'd think on PotD.

 

Cipher has some strong combat abilities but they're so heavily reliant on: 1 beating will saves. 2 not being CCed. Rogue's durability overall was higher due to adept evasion - in spite of cipher's higher base deflect. Cipher couldn't keep all drain buffs up all the time so much of the stats boosts were pretty temporary. The focus generation from retal is nice but still found myself running dry + with a low dex build and heavy armor it takes a long time to cast and enemies can sometimes disrupt.

 

Cipher just doesn't dramatically change the way you play solo vs. rogue. It's still going to be reliant on having move speed buffed, dragging enemies, using particular items at key points, etc. etc.

 

I think it's just way easier to go the shadowing beyond route still. The cipher is so much more potent that you'd want to slog through tons of combat with it. It'd add a dramatic amount of play-time necessary to complete a solo run I think.

 

This build wasnt meant for soloing. It works best in small teams like 2-3 people and is very fun to play.

 

Fair enough.

 

I still would say dropping both per and dex is making this character too vulnerable to reflex targeting stuff, which is what many high damage spells in the game are.

 

If it takes you long time to kill stuff with cipher, you're not using his spells properly tbh. As a pure melee, yes it's about as good as rogue without shadowing beyond. If you use stuff like mind lance, antipathetic field, ectopsychic echo, ring leader, amplified wave (with summons) you kill/disable stuff very fast. Cipher can also target all defenses in the game, rogue mostly deflection. This is a big deal if you learn the bestiary. If you use borrowed instinct you're pretty much guaranteed a crit with mind lance afterwards for instance. And if opponent has high will, you can use your fort or ref stuff. Deep wound's just don't compare imo. Tbh they don't compare to being able to attack for 140% damage constantly, unless you opponent has like 30+dr (in which case spells are still better),

 

Heavy armor does not make you cast longer - only longer recovery, so you don't risk disrupt with it. Low dex as I said I'm not sure, running myself with 10, otherwise it might be hard to spend focus fast enough. For hard fights I use +4 focus on hit food, it kinda supercharges you.

 

And yes, skipping most of the stuff with shadowing beyond might be faster, but personally I find it unsatisfying if I skip too much combat. matter of taste I guess.

Edited April 6, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[nemesis205bw]

I still would say dropping both per and dex is making this character too vulnerable to reflex targeting stuff, which is what many high damage spells in the game are.

After maxing might and int and putting 10 points in con and 15 in res, you still have some left points which you can put in dex. Dont forget, that he has buff +20 to all defenses including reflex. Still, reflex doesnt matter because attacks that target it are usually low damaging aoe spells and cipher have highest DT possible in this game, so that damage would get reduced to minimum.

 

Cipher advantages over rogue:

-much higher DT

-much higher acc

-much higher all defenses

-more reliable aa damage increase from bitting whip because it doesnt require debuff like sneak attack do and even tho, cipher will deal more aa damage because of higher crits

-much more CC and even more aa damage because CCed foes have lower defense stats

-have aoe damage spells

-more situational spells like -7 DT debuff for high DT enemy

-highest single target damage in this game. Recall agony + disintegration = huge damage.

-requires only 2 class talents

 

Rogue advantages over cipher:

-shadowing beyond

-riposte (still, it is waste of talent because only 20%)

Edited April 6, 2015 by nemesis205bw

[nemesis205bw]

Can someone please help me, what would stats look like for op build? he says max/min, but I have 5 points left over after all of that. What would the actual stat breakdown look like?I

Dex

Edited April 6, 2015 by nemesis205bw

[Odd Hermit]

If it takes you long time to kill stuff with cipher, you're not using his spells properly tbh. As a pure melee, yes it's about as good as rogue without shadowing beyond. If you use stuff like mind lance, antipathetic field, ectopsychic echo, ring leader, amplified wave (with summons) you kill/disable stuff very fast. Cipher can also target all defenses in the game, rogue mostly deflection. This is a big deal if you learn the bestiary. If you use borrowed instinct you're pretty much guaranteed a crit with mind lance afterwards for instance. And if opponent has high will, you can use your fort or ref stuff. Deep wound's just don't compare imo. Tbh they don't compare to being able to attack for 140% damage constantly, unless you opponent has like 30+dr (in which case spells are still better),

 

Heavy armor does not make you cast longer - only longer recovery, so you don't risk disrupt with it. Low dex as I said I'm not sure, running myself with 10, otherwise it might be hard to spend focus fast enough. For hard fights I use +4 focus on hit food, it kinda supercharges you.

 

And yes, skipping most of the stuff with shadowing beyond might be faster, but personally I find it unsatisfying if I skip too much combat. matter of taste I guess.

 

 

That's true with a caster cipher which this is not. Plus it has low dex and heavy armor which means you take awhile to get casts off.

 

It'll depend on the enemies being faced, of course, as well. The stuff leading up to the final boss includes shadow type enemies that attack fast and stun, and you'll struggle to get many casts off or generate a lot of focus against their fairly high defenses. This is where retaliate+draining weapon allows you to succeed by sheer outlast potential and passively dealing damage just by getting hit.

 

You'll kill faster than rogue vs. many things, but rogue can skip more combat and is more durable against some of the more irritating enemies in the game it seems like, by virtue of adept evasion.

[MadDemiurg]

You still cast reasonably fast in plate with 10 dex and you have enough focus (if you don't - use focus  food I've mentioned). You also generate more focus than a dps "caster" cipher on average. Plus some longer lasting ray spells you just cast and enjoy the carnage. What else do you need for a caster cipher? For higher acc you can tactical meld with summons solo, it's not as good as with party because it's not free, but you still will be able to land spells quite reliably. Also, mind plague does horrible horrible things.

 

You're a somewhat less tanky than a rogue when you miss with your drains and CC (cc is also a form of tanking). Potions of eldrich accuracy are not that difficult to come by later on for harder fights though, plus if you cast your buffs successfully it just goes through the roof.

Edited April 6, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[CriticalFailure]

Hi. I don't have a lot of experience with ciphers and I'm not sure I understand this build's playstyle. I mean, I get the tankinesh and retaliation and all, but how are you supposed to attack? Casting spells? Melee (in which case, where does all that damage you speak of comes from?)? Or in other words, what actions would this build do in a typical,non-boss battle?

 

And what about the early-mid game stages where you don't have all those items and level 4-5 spells? Should it be played like a "normal" cipher then, or can you afford to be in the frontline somehow?

[Odd Hermit]

 

I still would say dropping both per and dex is making this character too vulnerable to reflex targeting stuff, which is what many high damage spells in the game are.

After maxing might and int and putting 10 points in con and 15 in res, you still have some left points which you can put in dex. Dont forget, that he has buff +20 to all defenses including reflex. Still, reflex doesnt matter because attacks that target it are usually low damaging aoe spells and cipher have highest DT possible in this game, so that damage would get reduced to minimum.

 

Cipher advantages over rogue:

-much higher DT

-much higher acc

-much higher all defenses

-more reliable aa damage increase from bitting whip because it doesnt require debuff like sneak attack do and even tho, cipher will deal more aa damage because of higher crits

-much more CC and even more aa damage because CCed foes have lower defense stats

-have aoe damage spells

-more situational spells like -7 DT debuff for high DT enemy

-highest single target damage in this game. Recall agony + disintegration = huge damage.

-requires only 2 class talents

 

Rogue advantages over cipher:

-shadowing beyond

-riposte (still, it is waste of talent because only 20%)

 

 

Uh, AoEs targetting reflex are some of the biggest damage dealing things you'll have to deal with. And they'll kill you through high DR. Especially if you're in the fray as a melee character.

 

Also adept evasion and deep wounds is a bigger deal than riposte, from my testing experience. You could drop riposte but adept evasion and deep wounds make rogue better against some targets than cipher.

 

I'm all for taking Cipher over Rogue for any group composition though. I'm definitely not arguing Rogue is a stronger group class. I think it is, however, better for soloing(which you've said your build isn't for I understand).

[hugin7]

With that much DT, enemies will mostly deal minimum damage and thanks to that you have lower deflection because of no shield, enemies will gaze more often then miss so retaliate will occur. Gazed attack vs that much DT will deal around 1-5 damage, pain block regen will cover it entirely even if 5 enemies are attacking you at the same time. Cipher low endurance doesnt matter because enemies deal so little damage even with their strongest hits.

 

Is this on PotD difficulty?  I've seen a lot of feedback regarding enemies on PotD having 80+ accuracy and >80 damage per hit.  If your deflection is 100 and your DR is 34, suppose you're getting attacked by 5 enemies at once every 2 sec/enemy:

 

35% of their attacks will graze.  .5 * 80 = 40 - 34 DR = 6, so you will take 16 damage from grazes via the 20% minimum damage rule.

20% of attacks hit for 80 - 34 = 46 damage.

Average damage/attack, counting 45% miss rate = .35 * 16 + .2 * 46 = 14.8.

Damage taken/sec = (5 enemies * 14.8 damage)/2 = 37 DPS.

 

At this rate, the character will drop in about 3 sec.

 

Perhaps what I've read regarding PotD enemies' stats is exaggerated and most enemies are feeble by comparison.  Otherwise, this build seems to be rather risky, and minimizing melee exposure or increasing crowd control would decrease risk at the expense of retaliation damage.

[sterrius]

In POD just to give some people idea. 



This is my lv9 tank in POD dif.   

As you can see she have some very high DT and Defenses.  She can improve all saves for +20 for 15s.   

its almost the maximum deflection you can get in the game. I can give +5 for a deflection ring, a little more from stats but thats it.  100-110 is kind of how high you can go. 

The only moment i stop getting hit a lot is the moment i use that skill!  

Some accuracys in POD. 

Adra beetle -  61 (30-46)
Bear -  73
Dargul - 55  (18-27)
Drake - 85  (27-43 dmg)
Ogre 80    (40-60dmg)
Skeleton mage 53 (dmg depends on the spell also it will target your saves, not deflection) 

 

 

I think this is enough to make the point. 
In Pod no matter how high you can go, the NPC´s will have enough to hit or even critical hit you  And the numbers also make them ususally sorrounded by 6 or more enemys.     

When i get deflection in my mage or ranger its not to avoid getting hit, its to avoid getting a critical so i can try to disengage. (Also i just ignored any armor on them until i found some exceptional light armor). 

So the best my warrior can do is survive until his health reach 0 or until im finally able to kill the enemy before that happens.  

 

I use 2 warriors because i found out in POD. I wanted to use other class as offtank but quickly found out i cant as they would consume all my priest spells and time with heals instead of doing dps and saving the spells for tough fights.   Sometimes i even wanted a 3º offtank but my ranger bear can deal with it most of the time. 
 

Also No matter how many DT you have.  20% of the damage will pass!  But as you can see, in POD even the chyper OP said would get a lot of dmg. 

 
About dmg hugin. Is more or less the same as hard, but because of the high accuracy they critical hit you!  So if a spell have a 50dmg with critical its 100 dmg.  

 




 

Edited April 7, 2015 by sterrius

[mazeltov]

its almost the maximum deflection you can get in the game. I can give +5 for a deflection ring, a little more from stats but thats it.  100-110 is kind of how high you can go. 

 

Naw, my lv 9 roleplay pally in mediocre tank gear has a passive 132 AC in combat, and I built her before even knowing how tank optimization worked. This is without Superior Deflection, which probably stacks for another +5.

 

Edit: Sho 'nuff. Just hit lvl 10 and picked up Sup. Def.. 129 out of combat, 141 in combat before buffs. What a difference a level makes...

Edited April 7, 2015 by mazeltov

[sterrius]

hmm nice to know you can improve more. Surely going to need those extra .  I was thinking of getting to 120-130 without buffs, reason i said almost the max.  (im also not 18 resolve and 18 perception,  just 17 on both already with +2 items). 

And yes, it was out of combat, should be lacking one or two buffs there! 

 

Edited April 7, 2015 by sterrius

[nemesis205bw]

 

With that much DT, enemies will mostly deal minimum damage and thanks to that you have lower deflection because of no shield, enemies will gaze more often then miss so retaliate will occur. Gazed attack vs that much DT will deal around 1-5 damage, pain block regen will cover it entirely even if 5 enemies are attacking you at the same time. Cipher low endurance doesnt matter because enemies deal so little damage even with their strongest hits.

 

Is this on PotD difficulty?  I've seen a lot of feedback regarding enemies on PotD having 80+ accuracy and >80 damage per hit.  If your deflection is 100 and your DR is 34, suppose you're getting attacked by 5 enemies at once every 2 sec/enemy:

 

35% of their attacks will graze.  .5 * 80 = 40 - 34 DR = 6, so you will take 16 damage from grazes via the 20% minimum damage rule.

20% of attacks hit for 80 - 34 = 46 damage.

Average damage/attack, counting 45% miss rate = .35 * 16 + .2 * 46 = 14.8.

Damage taken/sec = (5 enemies * 14.8 damage)/2 = 37 DPS.

 

At this rate, the character will drop in about 3 sec.

 

Perhaps what I've read regarding PotD enemies' stats is exaggerated and most enemies are feeble by comparison.  Otherwise, this build seems to be rather risky, and minimizing melee exposure or increasing crowd control would decrease risk at the expense of retaliation damage.

 

And of course, rogue or any other char would survive? Cipher atleast have some cc to disable them. If they hit so hard, use confuse and let them kill each other. I dont know how did you came out with these numbers. 80 damage every 2 sec enemy that shows up in number of 5 is abit off. Ogre attacks like once per 10 or more seconds. Other, stronger enemies you just wont meet 5 at a time. You can always farm up to level 5 spells and make most tougher fights trivial with that long lasting jumping confusion. Big enemies have low will saves so it will crit most of the time for like 50 sec duration.

Edited April 7, 2015 by nemesis205bw

[nemesis205bw]

Also adept evasion and deep wounds is a bigger deal than riposte, from my testing experience. You could drop riposte but adept evasion and deep wounds make rogue better against some targets than cipher.

Pain link is better then deep wounds in every aspect. It deals damage in huge aoe around you for every hit u recieive and you can cast it before combat for free. Cipher make up for adept evasion bonus with much higher deflection. +20 deflection > adept evasion by miles.

Edited April 7, 2015 by nemesis205bw

[LadyCrimson]

I'm sensing a Cipher nerf may be in the future.

[hugin7]

 

 

With that much DT, enemies will mostly deal minimum damage and thanks to that you have lower deflection because of no shield, enemies will gaze more often then miss so retaliate will occur. Gazed attack vs that much DT will deal around 1-5 damage, pain block regen will cover it entirely even if 5 enemies are attacking you at the same time. Cipher low endurance doesnt matter because enemies deal so little damage even with their strongest hits.

 

Is this on PotD difficulty?  I've seen a lot of feedback regarding enemies on PotD having 80+ accuracy and >80 damage per hit.  If your deflection is 100 and your DR is 34, suppose you're getting attacked by 5 enemies at once every 2 sec/enemy:

 

35% of their attacks will graze.  .5 * 80 = 40 - 34 DR = 6, so you will take 16 damage from grazes via the 20% minimum damage rule.

20% of attacks hit for 80 - 34 = 46 damage.

Average damage/attack, counting 45% miss rate = .35 * 16 + .2 * 46 = 14.8.

Damage taken/sec = (5 enemies * 14.8 damage)/2 = 37 DPS.

 

At this rate, the character will drop in about 3 sec.

 

Perhaps what I've read regarding PotD enemies' stats is exaggerated and most enemies are feeble by comparison.  Otherwise, this build seems to be rather risky, and minimizing melee exposure or increasing crowd control would decrease risk at the expense of retaliation damage.

 

And of course, rogue or any other char would survive? Cipher atleast have some cc to disable them. If they hit so hard, use confuse and let them kill each other. I dont know how did you came out with these numbers. 80 damage every 2 sec enemy that shows up in number of 5 is abit off. Ogre attacks like once per 10 or more seconds. Other, stronger enemies you just wont meet 5 at a time. You can always farm up to level 5 spells and make most tougher fights trivial with that long lasting jumping confusion. Big enemies have low will saves so it will crit most of the time for like 50 sec duration.

 

 

As I mentioned, it's entirely possible that there are no packs that strong in the game.  Still, it sounds like you're mainly in melee when cleaning up trash, but for tougher encounters, you have to CC most/all of the enemy packs like more typical casters and/or hide behind tanks.  This not only keeps you from making use of retaliation and limits your PBAOE opportunities, but since you're wearing heavy armor and don't have maxed dexterity, your overall cast rate for CC spam will be much lower than that of normal cloth/high dex casters.

 

I'm am not saying that this is a bad build - in fact, I can see its potential on most encounters.  However, it appears optimized for trash, rather than most challenging PotD fights, and you still haven't answered if it was tested on PotD.  For the most difficult encounters, you'll be mostly in caster mode, but other casters should outperform you for reasons stated above.

 

Overall, I agree that this is a versatile and fun build for solo/small groups, but in full party of specialized characters, there are more efficient ways of CC-ing, debuffing, and nuking dangerous packs.

Edited April 7, 2015 by hugin7

[nemesis205bw]

 

casters should outperform you for reasons stated above.

Caster cipher without heavy armor would die shortly after casting first spell. In this build you get the same benefits as regular ranged cipher, but are much tankier and generate focus 5 times faster, which means you can spam spells and that fact ironically makes this build better caster then your "caster cipher".

 

Cipher spells have very good casting speed so heavy armor would make it maybe 0.3 sec longer which is nothing.

 

What do you describe by most challenging fights? If it is single strong enemy you can debuff/CC him and kill easily.

If it is alot of average/problematic enemies, position yourself with beam at corner/doorway and tank them with retaliate (for focus generation) and keep spamming CC.

If there is 1 strong enemy and thrashes for help, just focus that enemy (disintegrate or CC + aa), thrashes will die by themselves (and they will actually help you with focus). So far I havent had encounter (finishing act III on PotD) where I was against alot of top tier enemies at once.

 

Playing 3 man group and it is boring easy. At this point I think 5th tier spells alone make cipher God-like, he has everything there - strongest CC in this game (which also deal damage because of confused enemies fight each other), strongest and largest AOE damaging spell in this game (which is also CC) and strongest single target damage spell in this game.

 

You can even initiate with disintegrate (need some stealth points) on the most problematic enemy and run away to corner or kite until that enemy die. There is so much ways of dealing with each invidual encounter. That makes this build very flexible, interesting and fun to play.

Edited April 7, 2015 by nemesis205bw

[hugin7]

 

 

casters should outperform you for reasons stated above.

Caster cipher without heavy armor would die shortly after casting first spell. In this build you get the same benefits as regular ranged cipher, but are much tankier and generate focus 5 times faster, which means you can spam spells and that fact ironically makes this build better caster then your "caster cipher".

 

Cipher spells have very good casting speed so heavy armor would make it maybe 0.3 sec longer which is nothing.

 

What do you describe by most challenging fights? If it is single strong enemy you can debuff/CC him and kill easily.

If it is alot of average/problematic enemies, position yourself with beam at corner/doorway and tank them with retaliate (for focus generation) and keep spamming CC.

If there is 1 strong enemy and thrashes for help, just focus that enemy (disintegrate or CC + aa), thrashes will die by themselves (and they will actually help you with focus). So far I havent had encounter (finishing act III on PotD) where I was against alot of top tier enemies at once.

 

Playing 3 man group and it is boring easy. At this point I think 5th tier spells alone make cypher God-like, he has everything there - strongest CC in this game (which also deal damage because of confused enemies fight each other), strongest and largest AOE damaging spell in this game (which is also CC) and strongest single target damage spell in this game.

 

You can even initiate with disintegrate (need some stealth points) on the most problematic enemy and run away to corner or kite until that enemy die. There is so much ways of dealing with each invidual encounter. That makes this build very flexible, interesting and fun to play.

 

 

Thank you for confirming that this build was tested on PotD.  Looks like the enemy stats I've read about must have been exaggerated - apparently, you either fight packs of weak enemies or strong enemies in manageable numbers.  With the amount of CC, buffs, and debuffs available in this game, there are many ways for a smart player to make PotD cakewalk, and it seems that this build is no exception.

[Lord Vicious]

Big thanks to nemesis205bw for discovering, testing and sharing this great build/strategy.

 

I am growing bored with my ranged cipher and itch to try out this awesome in-your-face battlemage.

[CriticalFailure]

Hi. I don't have a lot of experience with ciphers and I'm not sure I understand this build's playstyle. I mean, I get the tankinesh and retaliation and all, but how are you supposed to attack? Casting spells? Melee (in which case, where does all that damage you speak of comes from?)? Or in other words, what actions would this build do in a typical,non-boss battle?

 

And what about the early-mid game stages where you don't have all those items and level 4-5 spells? Should it be played like a "normal" cipher then, or can you afford to be in the frontline somehow?

 

So... can anybody answer this? (I wonder if people had missed the post due to the new user post approval thingy).

[cameron9428]

This build looks wicked   I'd love to be able to see it in action, though.

 

in terms of race, would moon godlike be a good choice? Or perhaps wood elf for distant advantage? I'm worried that batle-forged is going to be nerfed given its current state.

[nemesis205bw]

Battle-forged is required to achieve highest DT possible in this game and that fire damage synergises so well with with this build. However you can play any race you want. Wood elf is terrible choice tho.

[cameron9428]

Battle-forged is required to achieve highest DT possible in this game and that fire damage synergises so well with with this build. However you can play any race you want. Wood elf is terrible choice tho.

Okay, thanks nemesis