Ultimate build = highest dps and tankines in 1 char

[revjwh]

 

 

Yes, they stack. And you do it all wrong. No other class can get as much accuracy and DT at the same time. Average reflex doesnt matter because high DT will reduce all that damage. Reflex is the most useless defense stat anyways.

 

 

High DR doesn't reduce a 100+ fire breath attack enough. 

 

I'm sure you can down groups of your average mooks with it but that's not the real test of a build. Anybody can build a cheesy retaliate+drain tank for that purpose. A rogue is better for skipping the things such a build can't handle as well, if the purpose is solo. This build's reflex saves are too damned dire even with high DRs.

 

This build doesn't add much to a party composition that any old cipher can't already.

 

 

Odd Hermit - you are wrong.  Sorry.  But true.  I'm playing this build (Moon race though) and doing it solo and it is destroying everything.  Try any old cipher solo and see how you fare......   I think you are being obstinate and refusing to admit that you jumped the gun too quick in refuting this build.  It rocks.

 

I HIGHLY recommend this for someone who wants to solo.  On normal it is more than doable.  

[revjwh]

 

You don't have to stand and wait for the dragon to burn you you know. No one's stopping you from casting disintegrate using tactical meld from safe distance.

 

I think it's a better solo build than rogue actually, I tried both. Shadowing beyond does allow you to escape some unfavorable situations, but stealth and fast legs are enough for the most part. Plus it's not available for early levels and for later levels cipher scales much better in terms of combat power, especially solo.

 

For party you get a decent offtank (which depending on your tactics can be your only tank) that gains tons of focus from being attacked in melee to eliminate both ranged and melee opposition. He also can use some of the more devastating cipher spells like antipathetic field and ectopsychic echo much better than ranged cipher due to positioning. Plus ranged cipher can't really compete with his focus gain in most battles, so he casts much more spells as well. And notion of "melee" and "ranged" cipher is quite blurry since you can switch to blunderbuss too if needed. That been said, I don't run him with min dex (mine has 10), so I'm not sure how that will play out (maybe worse, maybe better, who knows).

 

If you're having problems with reflex, you can take W+S style, you'll still get tons of focus from retaliation. Personally I don't. Also, regardless of your stat split your total saves are the same, and reflex is probably less important, since the other two have plenty of attacks that pretty much instagib you.

 

Really if you don't like it, well, don't use it, but when used properly it's quite devastating.

 

You can't afford talents for both melee and ranged with this build. You could use an Arbalest perhaps, rather than Blunderbuss which is much more reliant on penetrating shot. But you're in plate with terrible dex so your output will be extremely poor.

 

I would think taking decent dex + using weapon and shield style is better for this build. The reflex saves are way too poor with the OP's stat spread. There are some really strong 1h weapons including ones that drain endurance on hit. And with that set up I wouldn't use fire godlike, I'd use moon.

 

A bonus is that frees you up to use some stronger unique armor + the retaliation shield.

 

 

The issue with being a pseudo-tank in a party though is you just take too long to set-up and many fights it's just a tedious process to let your weirdo cipher build do his thing while a well optimized group can be done with most fights before the cipher has finished beefing himself up.

 

And you have to have something beating on the cipher in the first place, which isn't always ideal as it'll never be durable as actual tank build. I'd sooner just send a regular old paladin tank - mine has retaliation shield + a 1h with marking - and let the rest of the party do their thing from a safe distance.

 

And on tough fights - such as dragons - the cipher build is mostly dead weight as I found out immediately.

 

 

Again, you are wrong.  You are defining "tank" with one narrow definition.  The point is this build deals incredible DPS and has a fair level of tanking ability.  Does it mean your tactics with a dragon should be to "buff and charge" - no.  You keep obsessively presenting one situation.  The reality is that this is an incredibly flexible build that allows, with tactics, the ability to take down anything.  Ranged is a non-issue.  Fire an arbalest, then use spells, then clean up.  With a dragon it will probably mean more hit and run tactics but that is beside the point.  I "tank" in a lot of fights with this build with no buffing whatsoever..... I then unleash barrages of spells that clean house all while I can sustain enough damage to live.  If you don't get it - you don't get it.

 

For everyone else: if you want to have fun, challenge and flexibility - this is one of the best builds to go with in the game.

Edited April 6, 2015 by revjwh

[Odd Hermit]

 

 

Again, you are wrong.  You are defining "tank" with one narrow definition.  The point is this build deals incredible DPS and has a fair level of tanking ability.  Does it mean your tactics with a dragon should be to "buff and charge" - no.  You keep obsessively presenting one situation.  The reality is that this is an incredibly flexible build that allows, with tactics, the ability to take down anything.  Ranged is a non-issue.  Fire an arbalest, then use spells, then clean up.  With a dragon it will probably mean more hit and run tactics but that is beside the point.

 

 

It's a cheesy retaliation build(retal will likely be nerfed anyway) that's mostly just a maybe viable alternative to rogue for soloing but is of no value on the actual difficult fights which are all side content.

 

The people jumping the gun here are the ones just assuming it's amazing without actually playing it. It's a gimmicky niche build that will be weak up until certain items and spells are gained, and even then it's far from the best for that one particular niche.

 

I went into the game, built this, tried the Sky Dragon and even some of the Burial Isle fights before the boss. I doubt you could even take the final boss with it as this thing died to an animat on hard difficulty because its reflex saves are so poor.

[DIXI]

Fu** I totally thought retaliation was the fire godlike bonus (battle forge).

 

So I'm gonna ask my question again, does battle-forged works for building up focus faster?

[nemesis205bw]

Odd Hermit, 

this build allow both - the highest DT possible and the highest dps because of retaliate dmg + spells spam from generated focus. With my stat distribution you are still left with like 8 free points so you can put them on dex if it hurts you so much.

 

Setting up buffs requires less then 3 sec of fight. Enemies will not even run half way to you, because you initiate fight with long casting buff and then immediately use fast cast buff when battle starts. If you have another cipher in team its not a problem to cast pain block in beginning of combat.

 

 

DIXI,

no

Edited April 6, 2015 by nemesis205bw

[DIXI]

D'awww, that would have been awesome!

[nemesis205bw]

Also, on side note, cipher with this build will benefit the most from watcher spells and abilities. Nothing will be wasted and he can use these low range melee powers and they will always land because of high acc. Passives are great, especially these +DT, crit damage modifiers and mob justice (synergizing so well with tactical meld).

Edited April 6, 2015 by nemesis205bw

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

 

Again, you are wrong.  You are defining "tank" with one narrow definition.  The point is this build deals incredible DPS and has a fair level of tanking ability.  Does it mean your tactics with a dragon should be to "buff and charge" - no.  You keep obsessively presenting one situation.  The reality is that this is an incredibly flexible build that allows, with tactics, the ability to take down anything.  Ranged is a non-issue.  Fire an arbalest, then use spells, then clean up.  With a dragon it will probably mean more hit and run tactics but that is beside the point.

 

 

It's a cheesy retaliation build(retal will likely be nerfed anyway) that's mostly just a maybe viable alternative to rogue for soloing but is of no value on the actual difficult fights which are all side content.

 

The people jumping the gun here are the ones just assuming it's amazing without actually playing it. It's a gimmicky niche build that will be weak up until certain items and spells are gained, and even then it's far from the best for that one particular niche.

 

I went into the game, built this, tried the Sky Dragon and even some of the Burial Isle fights before the boss. I doubt you could even take the final boss with it as this thing died to an animat on hard difficulty because its reflex saves are so poor.

 

Again, You can go with 10 dex an W+S if you want to, it wont lose that much retal focus and have decent deflect and good ranged dps (plate impact is minimal on firearms). You can do bosses like sky dragon with disintegrate or resort to usual petrify cheese with traps as most classes would. The build is extremely flexible and can do melee/ranged/cc/tanking/kiting depending on the situation. It's your own fault that you're not using this flexibility.

 

You're jumping to conclusions yourself without playing the build and trying to understand what it offers and how to use it. It's like running a melee dps rogue into a room full of mobs and then complaining that it sucks because it died.

Edited April 6, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Matuse]

 

 

Some of the spells will get tuned down as well, like Mind Blades already has been.

 

Well, we can hope that the severity is not so high, because Mind Blades got severely thumped. I don't even bother using it anymore. It barely even tickles anything.

[Odd Hermit]

 

 

 

 

Again, you are wrong.  You are defining "tank" with one narrow definition.  The point is this build deals incredible DPS and has a fair level of tanking ability.  Does it mean your tactics with a dragon should be to "buff and charge" - no.  You keep obsessively presenting one situation.  The reality is that this is an incredibly flexible build that allows, with tactics, the ability to take down anything.  Ranged is a non-issue.  Fire an arbalest, then use spells, then clean up.  With a dragon it will probably mean more hit and run tactics but that is beside the point.

 

 

It's a cheesy retaliation build(retal will likely be nerfed anyway) that's mostly just a maybe viable alternative to rogue for soloing but is of no value on the actual difficult fights which are all side content.

 

The people jumping the gun here are the ones just assuming it's amazing without actually playing it. It's a gimmicky niche build that will be weak up until certain items and spells are gained, and even then it's far from the best for that one particular niche.

 

I went into the game, built this, tried the Sky Dragon and even some of the Burial Isle fights before the boss. I doubt you could even take the final boss with it as this thing died to an animat on hard difficulty because its reflex saves are so poor.

 

Again, You can go with 10 dex an W+S if you want to, it wont lose that much retal focus and have decent deflect and good ranged dps (plate impact is minimal on firearms). You can do bosses like sky dragon with disintegrate or resort to usual petrify cheese with traps as most classes would. The build is extremely flexible and can do melee/ranged/cc/tanking/kiting depending on the situation. It's your own fault that you're not using this flexibility.

 

 

I tested the build OP put forth, we're talking about different builds at this point.

 

And if I ever decide I want to be masochistic and do triple crown it's just gonna be a rogue similar to how I soloed the beta content. Solo is just so much easier and smoother with a rogue. You get shadowing beyond to nope the funk out of bad situations making it much more forgiving.

 

 

 

 

Some of the spells will get tuned down as well, like Mind Blades already has been.

 

Well, we can hope that the severity is not so high, because Mind Blades got severely thumped. I don't even bother using it anymore. It barely even tickles anything.

 

 

RIP Thrice Was She Wronged

Edited April 6, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[MadDemiurg]

Gotta disagree on rogue solo being smoother. Tried it myself. Yep, you have get out of jail for  free card, but your combat ability is just horrible compared to most other classes.

 

Also, OP's build still can use disintegrate on dragon for 200+ raw damage. So why would you not. You can have a more flexible build, but that one has some flexibility too.

 

As for Mind blades nerf - tbh it was completely weird since it was a mediocre spell anyway. I had doubts on taking it even before nerf. Cipher has much stronger dd options.

Edited April 6, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MadDemiurg]

MadDemiurge, what build are you using for your solo Cipher?  I've been trying to decide how to go about it; my initial try has been with:

 

Moonlike 18/10/7/18/7/18

 

Weapon Focus

Two Weapon Fighting

Cautious Attack

Biting Whip

Draining Whip

Superior Deflection

 

I haven't gotten very far into the game, so I don't know how it will do.  I figured that since you were further along you might have a better idea of what works.

Well, mine has 10 dex and less per, not sure it's optimal. Also con  is not very important since you can buff max endurance with food, but you need fort on the other hand, so not sure. So tbh I'm not sure what the best stats are. You're gonna need fast runner and +2 quickslot talent for solo though.

[sinister504]

Can someone please help me, what would stats look like for op build? he says max/min, but I have 5 points left over after all of that. What would the actual stat breakdown look like?

[Odd Hermit]

Gotta disagree on rogue solo being smoother. Tried it myself. Yep, you have get out of jail for  free card, but your combat ability is just horrible compared to most other classes.

 

Also, OP's build still can use disintegrate on dragon for 200+ raw damage. So why would you not. You can have a more flexible build, but that one has some flexibility too.

 

As for Mind blades nerf - tbh it was completely weird since it was a mediocre spell anyway. I had doubts on taking it even before nerf. Cipher has much stronger dd options.

 

Solo tanky riposte retaliation build using a draining flail and the retal shield > this build.

 

I tried both just now against the pre-final boss stuff. The rogue takes almost no damage to endurance, deals plenty, while the cipher does more damage in the short term but gets fairly quickly wrecked.

 

Rogue also has access to raw damage on retaliation which bypasses any DR.

 

Edit: Rogue BTW has one of the best defensive talents in adept evasion. For solo anyway, with a high deflect build. Converting grazes to misses is AMAZING with high deflect builds.

 

I also use the reckless assault modal as necessary. It's 1.2x melee damage and +8 melee accuracy for only -8 deflection. One of the best modals in the game. It's up all the time and is great with retal.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[MadDemiurg]

Rogue has less deflection, can't self buff, his raw damage from deep wounds is crap (like 1 dmg/sec), deals less damage per hit (sneak attack won't work, biting whip will). How is he more tanky? You can put endurance drain weapon on cipher just as easy along with retal shield. And again 1 mind  plague/ring leader = I win. Riposte has 20% chance triggering on miss, so it's pretty bad too. In practise it's < 20% dps increase, since you don't get 100% avoidance with a rogue. Gotta admit adept evasion is good, but not enough to make up for other stuff.

Edited April 6, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[bobthe]

 

I'm surprised no-one has pointed this out yet but, like many other cipher abilities, pain block cannot be used on yourself. Going through the effort of trying to make a cipher tanky is not really worth it when having a cipher buff an actual tank is orders of magnitude better.

Actual tank won't be getting like 10 focus per second to spam spells when attacked. Also body attunement works on cipher and stacks with pain block. So you can get +17 dr if another cipher buffs you or 7 yourself. Still a lot. And yes, this is not the most tanky build, however the amount of pain it dishes out in return makes up for it. You don't need to be super tanky if you melt stuff in seconds, just tanky enough.

 

 

Have you ever really needed to actually regain any focus during a battle though? You're not trying to solo since you reference other party members. I'm near the end of the game on hard and I've only maybe once ever needed to cast a spell with my cipher after the initial focus was used up. I probably didn't even need to cast that one either. Focus is unnecessary unless you're trying to solo or maybe on PotD.

[MadDemiurg]

Well, on PotD mid game some fights last long enough depending on party setup. Near the endgame spells are usually devastating enough to win in 1-2 casts, yes.

[Odd Hermit]

Rogue has less deflection, can't self buff, his raw damage from deep wounds is crap (like 1 dmg/sec), deals less damage per hit (sneak attack won't work, biting whip will). How is he more tanky? You can put endurance drain weapon on cipher just as easy along with retal shield. And again 1 mind  plague/ring leader = I win. Riposte has 20% chance triggering on miss, so it's pretty bad too. In practise it's < 20% dps increase, since you don't get 100% avoidance with a rogue. Gotta admit adept evasion is good, but not enough to make up for other stuff.

 

Riposte isn't really necessary I suppose. I haven't tried to perfect a rogue build yet.

 

The main thing is cipher = no shadowing beyond. Shadowing beyond lets you do so many things you can't with other builds. The rogue isn't as good for combat but most of the time you only need to defeat enemies 1 by 1 as solo if you're cheesing well and running away. It's not about high damage it's about being able to damage all targets and outlast. A rogue is perfectly valid for that. Most solo builds will end up cheesing items to do most of the hard work anyway. Summoning stuff, traps, etc.

 

A cipher build isn't likely gonna solo most things without doing the same nonsense as a rogue build, sans rogue's trump card. There are items that allow spell casting as well, I've found one that even casts whisper of treason.

 

+Rogue = higher trap accuracy. +1 Mechanics doesn't seem like a lot in the beginning but it saves a lot of skill points in the end. I think I'd take 4 lore as well to use the +3 stealth and +3 mechanic scrolls as necessary.

 

A cipher could be built similar to the rogue - not dumping perception for one would make it way more survivable than the OP's build. I will try one out, built for tanking rather than dying to reflex targeting abilities

Edited April 6, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[MadDemiurg]

 

Rogue has less deflection, can't self buff, his raw damage from deep wounds is crap (like 1 dmg/sec), deals less damage per hit (sneak attack won't work, biting whip will). How is he more tanky? You can put endurance drain weapon on cipher just as easy along with retal shield. And again 1 mind  plague/ring leader = I win. Riposte has 20% chance triggering on miss, so it's pretty bad too. In practise it's < 20% dps increase, since you don't get 100% avoidance with a rogue. Gotta admit adept evasion is good, but not enough to make up for other stuff.

 

Riposte isn't really necessary I suppose. I haven't tried to perfect a rogue build yet.

 

The main thing is cipher = no shadowing beyond. Shadowing beyond lets you do so many things you can't with other builds. The rogue isn't as good for combat but most of the time you only need to defeat enemies 1 by 1 as solo if you're cheesing well and running away. It's not about high damage it's about being able to damage all targets and outlast. A rogue is perfectly valid for that. Most solo builds will end up cheesing items to do most of the hard work anyway. Summoning stuff, traps, etc.

 

A cipher build isn't likely gonna solo most things without doing the same nonsense as a rogue build, sans rogue's trump card. There are items that allow spell casting as well, I've found one that even casts whisper of treason.

 

A cipher could be built similar to the rogue - not dumping perception for one would make way more survivable than the OP's build.

 

Cipher is more capable combat wise, rogue admittedly is better at running from combat. Cipher has his own unique ways of cheesing like casting confusion out of stealth though.

[Odd Hermit]

 

Cipher is more capable combat wise, rogue admittedly is better at running from combat. Cipher has his own unique ways of cheesing like casting confusion out of stealth though.

 

 

 

I attempted Cipher in the BB, and even just Tenuous Grasp was pretty nuts for soloing. In the long run though Cipher's lack of shadowing beyond got me stuck at key points the rogue was able to bypass using shadowing beyond.

 

Granted, the BB =/= the release game and you have more freedom to out-level content in it. Especially now that they doubled solo XP bonus with the patch, which is pretty major for soloing.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

Cipher is more capable combat wise, rogue admittedly is better at running from combat. Cipher has his own unique ways of cheesing like casting confusion out of stealth though.

 

 

 

I attempted Cipher in the BB, and even just Tenuous Grasp was pretty nuts for soloing. In the long run though Cipher's lack of shadowing beyond got me stuck at key points the rogue was able to bypass using shadowing beyond.

 

Granted, the BB =/= the release game and you have more freedom to out-level content in it. Especially now that they doubled solo XP bonus with the patch, which is pretty major for soloing.

 

Tenuous Grasp abuse is indeed a key trick for low level. Without question shadowing beyond can save you from otherwise perilous situation, but so far I haven't seen places you can't really path through without it. It's pretty good tool for ironman though, to reduce bad luck rng.

[revjwh]

 

 

 

Again, you are wrong.  You are defining "tank" with one narrow definition.  The point is this build deals incredible DPS and has a fair level of tanking ability.  Does it mean your tactics with a dragon should be to "buff and charge" - no.  You keep obsessively presenting one situation.  The reality is that this is an incredibly flexible build that allows, with tactics, the ability to take down anything.  Ranged is a non-issue.  Fire an arbalest, then use spells, then clean up.  With a dragon it will probably mean more hit and run tactics but that is beside the point.

 

 

It's a cheesy retaliation build(retal will likely be nerfed anyway) that's mostly just a maybe viable alternative to rogue for soloing but is of no value on the actual difficult fights which are all side content.

 

The people jumping the gun here are the ones just assuming it's amazing without actually playing it. It's a gimmicky niche build that will be weak up until certain items and spells are gained, and even then it's far from the best for that one particular niche.

 

I went into the game, built this, tried the Sky Dragon and even some of the Burial Isle fights before the boss. I doubt you could even take the final boss with it as this thing died to an animat on hard difficulty because its reflex saves are so poor.

 

Odd Hermit,

 

You come across as an arrogant jerk.  People are playing the build right now.  It's no more gimmicky or whatever than any other build.   Your pathetic attempts to always be right are tiring.  No point in discussing it with you at least - you are merely a troll now.

 

People have already finished the game with this build.  Grow up.

Edited April 6, 2015 by revjwh

[Odd Hermit]

 

 

 

 

Again, you are wrong.  You are defining "tank" with one narrow definition.  The point is this build deals incredible DPS and has a fair level of tanking ability.  Does it mean your tactics with a dragon should be to "buff and charge" - no.  You keep obsessively presenting one situation.  The reality is that this is an incredibly flexible build that allows, with tactics, the ability to take down anything.  Ranged is a non-issue.  Fire an arbalest, then use spells, then clean up.  With a dragon it will probably mean more hit and run tactics but that is beside the point.

 

 

It's a cheesy retaliation build(retal will likely be nerfed anyway) that's mostly just a maybe viable alternative to rogue for soloing but is of no value on the actual difficult fights which are all side content.

 

The people jumping the gun here are the ones just assuming it's amazing without actually playing it. It's a gimmicky niche build that will be weak up until certain items and spells are gained, and even then it's far from the best for that one particular niche.

 

I went into the game, built this, tried the Sky Dragon and even some of the Burial Isle fights before the boss. I doubt you could even take the final boss with it as this thing died to an animat on hard difficulty because its reflex saves are so poor.

 

Odd Hermit,

 

You come across as an arrogant jerk.  People are playing the build right now.  It's no more gimmicky or whatever than any other build.   Your pathetic attempts to always be right are tiring.  No point in discussing it with you at least - you are merely a troll now.

 

People have already finished the game with this build.  Grow up.

 

 

It is gimmicky because it relies heavily on retaliation which is quite obviously broken levels of overpowered currently.

 

Any build capable of soloing will require some serious cheese though, of course. But gimmicky is still a reasonable description.

[MadDemiurg]

Well, PoE is supposed to be about versatility and classes being able to fill multiple roles. I came up with the idea to use retaliation on a cipher when trying to make a cipher tank work. I agree that retaliation is broken atm, but if I was the game designer, I would probably give cipher some talent to generate focus on enemy misses (regardless of targeted save and range), values would have to be tuned accordingly to be balanced. It won't help the "standard" dps cipher build, since misses (and attacks) vs him should be quite rare, but it would open up an alternative way to play. Currently retaliation is the best way to make tanky cipher work, cause his resource generation is tied to damage (or at least number of hits) he deals too much.

Edited April 6, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[nemesis205bw]

This build wasnt meant for soloing. It works best in small teams like 2-3 people and is very fun to play.