Paladin tank build discusion

[Exoduss]

M 6

C 15

D 6

P 18

I 17

R 18

 

I would go over it. What about you ?

This build seems about right , tho i would kill DEX to min put those last points into INT , 

[Ekkyo]

 

M 6

C 15

D 6

P 18

I 17

R 18

 

I would go over it. What about you ?

This build seems about right , tho i would kill DEX to min put those last points into INT , 

 

 

This is already the case ?

[cavemandiary]

So far I´ve been having great success with using pale elf Darcozzi, who is basically immune to fire and frost. Add a cipher with painblock and a druid with woodskins and very few things hurt your paladin.

[gkathellar]

 

 

M 6

C 15

D 6

P 18

I 17

R 18

 

I would go over it. What about you ?

This build seems about right , tho i would kill DEX to min put those last points into INT , 

 

 

This is already the case ?

 

 

Dex can go down by three more points.

[Gallenger]

I too went with the pale elf for the fire/freeze resistance.  It's pretty easy to get yourself to unhittable status - and most spells won't hurt you that bad lol.   By mid game I was able to blast my tank with all manner of ice/fire spells and have it fail to hurt him.   

 

One thing I'd suggest looking for in the early game is a Hatchet.  They add deflection as well, and once you get your first large shield, you'll be banking that deflection.  They're also pretty widely available early game. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Gallenger

[Exoduss]

 

 

M 6

C 15

D 6

P 18

I 17

R 18

 

I would go over it. What about you ?

This build seems about right , tho i would kill DEX to min put those last points into INT , 

 

 

This is already the case ?

 

Those 3 points in dex atm does exactly nothing so might aswell just max other stats but its good build going right direction so you will do very well , also about a race i was all about Moon Godlikes for palla tank , now i think maybe to make other tank moon godlike and get that helm from first dungeon for Paladin tank +1resolve+perception , moon godlike has like amazing tank racial 

[cavemandiary]

I too went with the pale elf for the fire/freeze resistance.  It's pretty easy to get yourself to unhittable status - and most spells won't hurt you that bad lol.   By mid game I was able to blast my tank with all manner of ice/fire spells and have it fail to hurt him.   

 

One thing I'd suggest looking for in the early game is a Hatchet.  They add deflection as well, and once you get your first large shield, you'll be banking that deflection.  They're also pretty widely available early game. 

Funny, I did the exact same thing. For a surprisingly overlooked race, paleelves are pretty good paladins.

[gkathellar]

 

 

 

M 6

C 15

D 6

P 18

I 17

R 18

 

I would go over it. What about you ?

This build seems about right , tho i would kill DEX to min put those last points into INT , 

 

 

This is already the case ?

 

Those 3 points in dex atm does exactly nothing so might aswell just max other stats but its good build going right direction so you will do very well , also about a race i was all about Moon Godlikes for palla tank , now i think maybe to make other tank moon godlike and get that helm from first dungeon for Paladin tank +1resolve+perception , moon godlike has like amazing tank racial 

 

 

Bear in mind that the Moon Godlike racial is healing and so depends on Might, making it arguably more valuable to them (even on a tank) than Constitution.

[Exoduss]

Yeh that is true thats why i usually end up with 10 Might( No Increase to heals but no decrease either) 10 Const for Moon Godlike Paladin Tank and then 4 Dex ( Godlike gives +1 cant have 3 i think ) and other 3 stats maxed 

[gkathellar]

I'd rather flip Int and Con for the heal and a bit of offensive potential, personally, but it's a question of preference.

[Ekkyo]

I still do not understand why the constitution is not so important for a tank off  !!

Perception and resolve are clearly most oriented RP than fighting. Deviation and Reflex override the constitution ?

Edited April 8, 2015 by Ekkyo

[gkathellar]

I still do not understand why the constitution is not so important for a tank off  !!

Perception and resolve are clearly most oriented RP than fighting. Deviation and Reflex override the constitution ?

 

The Endurance loss or gain from Constitution is pretty minimal, and if you've stacked your Defenses sky-high as a good tank should (and like a Paladin in particular can) it ends up not mattering. If nothing hits you, then nothing hits you.

[Ekkyo]

 

The Endurance loss or gain from Constitution is pretty minimal

 

Can you explain why ? 

 

I red an article (i don't remember where and when) which spoke that constituion is a % ? It's true ?

 

Might is a resistance physical. Which stacked in one round all damage. And constitution increase this (whith reflex bonus). I think is it very important.

A build with less 10 in Might and constitution make Paladin is a foam snowman !!

 

or there really something that escapes me...

Edited April 8, 2015 by Ekkyo

[pi2repsion]

I still do not understand why the constitution is not so important for a tank off  !!

Perception and resolve are clearly most oriented RP than fighting. Deviation and Reflex override the constitution ?

Higher constitution gives you a higher hitpoint pool so you can survive more hits without healing and bigger hits that might one or two-shot a lower-constitution paladin.

 

Perception and Resolve makes you take much fewer grazes, hits and crits.

 

HOWEVER, this is a fantasy world with in-combat healing of many types, nobody hits hard enough to one- or two-shot a low-constitution paladin, going the avoidance route provides a significant increased avoidance that is very noticeable, so going for the avoidance through perception/resolve rather than damage absorption is the obviously superior choice: If instead you go with lower avoidance and higher hitpoint pool, it just means that you are guaranteeing that you'll be taking more damage that you need to heal, and as healing does not scale to the size of the endurance pool of the target that means more healing spells/potions/other sources required.

 

So if you want to gain maximum survivability with a Paladin*, you stack your avoidance defenses, primarily deflection from maximized perception and resolve, and take whatever constitution you feel you can afford.

 

* Or anybody else that you put in the front line to take a pounding.

Edited April 8, 2015 by pi2repsion

[Ekkyo]

 

I still do not understand why the constitution is not so important for a tank off  !!

Perception and resolve are clearly most oriented RP than fighting. Deviation and Reflex override the constitution ?

Higher constitution gives you a higher hitpoint pool so you can survive more hits without healing and bigger hits that might one or two-shot a lower-constitution paladin.

 

Perception and Resolve makes you take much fewer grazes, hits and crits.

 

HOWEVER, this is a fantasy world with in-combat healing of many types, nobody hits hard enough to one- or two-shot a low-constitution paladin, going the avoidance route provides a significant increased avoidance that is very noticeable, so going for the avoidance through perception/resolve rather than damage absorption is the obviously superior choice: If instead you go with lower avoidance and higher hitpoint pool, it just means that you are guaranteeing that you'll be taking more damage that you need to heal, and as healing does not scale to the size of the endurance pool of the target that means more healing spells/potions/other sources required.

 

So if you want to gain maximum survivability with a Paladin*, you stack your avoidance defenses, primarily deflection from maximized perception and resolve, and take whatever constitution you feel you can afford.

 

* Or anybody else that you put in the front line to take a pounding.

 

 

Ok. So, why Fighter "tank" is most oriented Might and Constitution ? Like Elder... ?

[Ekkyo]

In fact, the problem is that everyone gives his opinion (which sometimes differ from each other or completely opposite view) but nobody gives figures, such as real source. So we are left confused. And when you think you understand , another gives you doubts

I'll be boring (but I really want to understand) so I ask the following questions : 

Why endurance loss or gain from Constituion is pretty minimal ? Do you have a example ? source ?

[SereneGilt]

Ekkyo: I think its same for all.

 

Migght and Cons gives you Fortitude which resists internal damage (poison, diesiese)

 

Dex and Perception gives you Reflex which "resist" AoE efects (like fire balls)

 

Perception and resolve gives you about Half amount of Reflex/will of Deflection. Deflection is used for defence rolls on melee (physical hits)

 

And finaly Inteligence and resolve gives you Will which is used for direct magical/ mental attacs.

 

So obviously If you Max Perception and resolve you, max out 2,5 of 4 tanking stats. If you also max out int you increase it to 3 of 4. So only Poison is dangerous for you. Paladin has other ablity which can pretty much mitigate this weaknes (at least with proper gear).

 

So if would build Fighter tank I would build it same way. But this will be matter of testing because I have feeling that his pasive combat regen actualy drains HP to much to be able to tank with low Con.

[gkathellar]

Eder's stats were not well thought-out.

 

I wouldn't say dump both Might and Con, btw. Like you say, they're necessary for Fortitude. It's just good to focus on one or the other.

 

Dexterity, on the other hand, you can brick, due to Weapon and Shield style picking up Reflex.

[Ekkyo]

Ekkyo: I think its same for all.

I hope not to be the only one

 

Thanks all for answers.

 

M 5

C 12

D 5

P 20

I 16

R 20

 

So i'm going to this build (with a little CON )

Edited April 8, 2015 by Ekkyo

[SereneGilt]

 

In fact, the problem is that everyone gives his opinion (which sometimes differ from each other or completely opposite view) but nobody gives figures, such as real source. So we are left confused. And when you think you understand , another gives you doubts

I'll be boring (but I really want to understand) so I ask the following questions : 

Why endurance loss or gain from Constituion is pretty minimal ? Do you have a example ? source ?

 

 

You can see difference when you are building in. With minimal Con its - 25% with maxed con is about +25%  Paladin base is 42 + 14/per level With min Con you change it to 31,5 + 10,5/per level. Its not such a huge decrease for that much increase in defence rolls.

 

It works this way:

 

Attribute Effects per point above 10

Might +3% Damage and Healing +2 Fortitude

Constitution +3% Endurance and Health +2 Fortitude

Dexterity +3% Action Speed +2 Reflex

Perception +3 Interrupt +1 Deflection +2 Reflex

Intellect +6% Area of Effect +5% Duration +2 Will

Resolve +3 Concentration +1 Deflection +2 Will

 

 

Just switch + to - if you decrease point.

Edited April 8, 2015 by SereneGilt

[illathid]

The reason why Con is usually a dump stat is that it doesn't have a whole lot of effect by the end of the game. Each point of Con is only worth 6.3 endurance for a paladin.

 

Conversely, each point of Per or Res makes all damage received lower on average (crits become hits, hits become grazes, etc.).

[pi2repsion]

 

 

I still do not understand why the constitution is not so important for a tank off  !!

Perception and resolve are clearly most oriented RP than fighting. Deviation and Reflex override the constitution ?

Higher constitution gives you a higher hitpoint pool so you can survive more hits without healing and bigger hits that might one or two-shot a lower-constitution paladin.

 

Perception and Resolve makes you take much fewer grazes, hits and crits.

 

HOWEVER, this is a fantasy world with in-combat healing of many types, nobody hits hard enough to one- or two-shot a low-constitution paladin, going the avoidance route provides a significant increased avoidance that is very noticeable, so going for the avoidance through perception/resolve rather than damage absorption is the obviously superior choice: If instead you go with lower avoidance and higher hitpoint pool, it just means that you are guaranteeing that you'll be taking more damage that you need to heal, and as healing does not scale to the size of the endurance pool of the target that means more healing spells/potions/other sources required.

 

So if you want to gain maximum survivability with a Paladin*, you stack your avoidance defenses, primarily deflection from maximized perception and resolve, and take whatever constitution you feel you can afford.

 

* Or anybody else that you put in the front line to take a pounding.

 

 

Ok. So, why Fighter "tank" is most oriented Might and Constitution ? Like Elder... ?

 

Because he isn't "fighter tank", he is Eder. A person with a life of his own, the stout-hearted peasant who went to war and returned a scarred man. Eder's backstory is one that fits a person who's strong and healthy but neither particularly dextrous, intelligent, perceptive, nor of strong resolve, but not clumsy, stupid, oblivious, or without convictions of his own either.

 

NONE of the companions are well designed for the combat roles that players are likely to use them at the way a player created character would be, but that also has the benefit of them not being awful at some of them either. All of them have middle of the road stats that means you can handily use them in most roles and do well enough with them, and Eder isn't any different from the others in that respect.

 

Eder: He can be a decent damagedealer for any player who has chosen to play as a tank and a decent tank for any player that has chosen not to. He isn't particularly good at either role, being outshined in both by a fighter designed for that purpose, but he is more than good enough to do the job depending on which talents and abilities the player picks up. If the developers had given him optimized tank stats, not only would his stats reflect a completely different person (and probably a more boring one, at that), he'd be close to worthless to anybody using him as anything but a tank.

 

You'll see the same pattern with all the characters.

 

Moreover, when you are designing companions intended for use by players who might not understand the stat system and combat engine, it makes sense to create characters with higher constitution because it gives them more time to live for the player to learn from his mistakes.

 

 

The game is easy enough that once you understand how it works all the companions do well even on hard difficulty, because the game's difficulty isn't balanced around stat-optimized characters.

 

For purposes of build discussions you should expect players to base their answers on how the game mechanics work, not on how companions have had their stats assigned.

 

 

Take the 3% health/endurance per point of constitution. The difference between 3 (-21%) and 18 (+24) is huge in absolute numbers (the 18 con tank having 1.24/0.79 = 57% more endurance than the 3 con tank), and if the question about tanking was "enemies in the game deliver very large hits that the tank has to survive" or "with extremely limited healing, it is important for the tank to be able to survive a lot of damage without healing" or "there are a lot of unavoidable attacks that the tank just has to soak damage from" then a high constitution tank would make sense.

 

But that's not how encounters in the game work. There are lots of ways to heal, most attacks don't hit all that hard on characters that have good damage reduction, there are few unavoidable attacks, and high deflection is very, very, good in pushing what would else have been crits (doing 1.5x damage) down into the hit range, pushing hits down into graze range, and pushing grazes into misses because the game uses a single-roll attack system for determining type of hit.

 

Does that mean that you should run around with a 3 CON tank? Nooo.... Though it is definitely an option, there are other stats that matter less to you if the sole purpose is building a strong tank, namely might and dexterity. Both constitution and intelligence fall in the "whatever you think is enough to make life comfortable" with regards to endurance and AOE radius.

Edited April 8, 2015 by pi2repsion

[Ekkyo]

Thank you to everyone ( what fun this community ) !!!

[Dymlit]

I have a question, Why the hearth and not the wild orlan? I would think you would want the wild orlan due to the racial-Defiant resolve. Or is defiant resolve that bad? I currently have a hearth Orlan rogue in my group doing some OP DPS, so, I know their racial is nice.

[Nobear]

I have a question, Why the hearth and not the wild orlan? I would think you would want the wild orlan due to the racial-Defiant resolve. Or is defiant resolve that bad? I currently have a hearth Orlan rogue in my group doing some OP DPS, so, I know their racial is nice.

 

I don't know why someone would do Hearth Orlan for a tank unless to RP. I'm with you that Wild Orlan looks like a good tank racial. I have a Moon Godlike, but Wild Orlan would probably be my second choice for a tank.

 

To the OP: My build looks very similar to the build in your first post: 10/14/4/18/14/18 Shieldbearer tank/support. I chose 14 Int specifically because (when they fix the current bug that makes auras huge), 20 Int is the breakpoint to make my Zealous Focus cover my back row in my custom formation, which I can easily get with an item and resting bonus in Defiance Bay.

 

My slight preference for Con over Might was a close one. Yes, Might would have made my Silver Tide a bit stronger, but I find it strong enough even with 10 Might. I wouldn't dump Might, that's for sure. Now, for dialogue options, Might will mostly open aggressive ones, which a Shieldbearer doesn't want to pick anyway. Con will open relatively few dialogue options, but I don't think they will as often be aggressive.

 

Also, a relatively minor consideration is that I like my two tanks to have similar health pools, so they will be more balanced and one won't force me to rest more often than I would otherwise. Admittedly, this last concern is probably a bit OCD as opposed to necessary, that's why I call it minor.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Nobear