One thing I hated about the LS/DS issues in KOTOR

[Tyrell]

In Knights of the Old Republic you were given the opportunity to play out the story as a servant of the Lightside or servant of the Darkside. Depending on what side you chose through the game determined how the ending was.

 

Well that wasn't quite true. In KOTOR the ending didn't come down to what side you were on during the game, it just came down to one decision....and that decision came on top of the Temple roof on the Rakata planet.

 

I could have went the WHOLE game as an Uber Lightside Jedi will with my lightside meter all the way to the top. But that really didn't mean anything, I could have been that Uber Lightside Jedi but at the Temple, side with Bastila and determined how the game would go from there.

 

Same way vice-versa. I could have been Uber Darkside throughout the whole game but at the Temple, if I didn't side with Bastila it would have went on from there with the LS route.

 

So in other words, ALL of the choices you made during the game to be on LS/DS didn't matter. What really mattered was what your decision was on the top of that Temple.

 

I knew something like that was going to happen cause like 1-2 months before the game came out it was confirmed by the developers that you can flirt with the LS or DS through the whole game but 3/4 through the game you'll have to make a final choice.

 

So with KOTOR II I hope it isn't like that. There should be no single moment in the game that determines how the rest of the game should play out. What determines how the rest of the game plays out should be how you went through the whole game, whether it be Darkside or Lightside.

 

On that Temple roof when you meet Bastila, this is how it should have been:

 

If you were on the Lightside part of the meter, then when you confronted Bastila, all of your dialog options should have been to trying to bring her back to the LS.

 

If you were on the Darkside part of the meter, then when you confronted Bastila, all of your dialog options should have been to trying to convince her to become your new apprentice and help kill off Malak.

 

If you were neutral (In the middle part of the meter, not quite LS or DS, just normal). THEN you should have had the option to either chose....side with Bastila and become Darth Revan once again, or try to bring her back to the LS.

 

It should have played out that way.

 

I hope KOTOR II plays out like that and doesn't go the same route as the first KOTOR where the choices you made eariler in the game literally meant nothing as the fate of the galaxy came down to one conversation rather then the choices you made eariler in the game.

 

What do you guys/gals think?

[Meshugger]

I agree actually.

[Tyrell]

Thank you, so atleast there is one person here who sees this situation the same way as I do.

 

By doing it the KOTOR I way, a person could cheat and play on the DS the WHOLE game and still be able to get a LS ending. Or vice-versa.

 

If it would went the way I explained it, people would be more careful and take the decisions they make more seriously cause once they get to that Temple top, the fate is already decided....

[newc0253]

So in other words, ALL of the choices you made during the game to be on LS/DS didn't matter. What really mattered was what your decision was on the top of that Temple.

huh, you could just as easily complain that none of Darth Vader's twentysomething years worth of dark side choices mattered, only the one to throw the emperor down the reactor shaft mattered.

 

that's redemption for ya.

 

and it's far better that it plays out like that. otherwise you are sacrificing story, characterization and roleplay for the sake of a stupid game mechanic.

[Shdy314]

I think you're wrong. First of all your earlier decisions are not nullified by giving you a final decision. Playing it LS or DS affected your characters powers, how quests went, how people viewed you, what items you could use etc. People think just because one thing happens everything earlier is suddenly unimportant. Like nothing we did mattered in KOTOR 1 because the universe is threatened five years later even though in the books its saved and threatened every other day.

 

In addition it made it easy for people to save their game there then check out the DS ending. Helpful for casual gamers or people that didn't want to play the whole game again just to see the DS ending.

 

Bioware decided to give you a choice to go DS here just like in every other quest. I reached full LS status way before then and every quest I still got the opportunity to be evil. This is because the DS is an ever present threat no matter how "good" you think you are. You only think it's final because 1. it is simply the final quest you get. You are forgetting all those other quests you could do, and 2. because choosing the DS in this quest led to repercussions so vile and heinous you immediately fell to the DS instead of just slipping like in other minor quests.

 

It is also supposed to be dramatic. It's the moment of truth for Revan. He is being offered a chance to regain everything that was taken from him. Will your LS jedi resist the temptation or finally fall. And likewise will your DS Jedi realize the error of his ways seeing Bastila the way she is or seize the opportunity? It is called Role-playing. DO NOT EVER FORCE ME TO BE GOOD OR BAD IN DIALOGUE. Always give me options.

[Tyrell]

It is called Role-playing. DO NOT EVER FORCE ME TO BE GOOD OR BAD IN DIALOGUE. Always give me options.

If it would have went my way, your options came during the game when you made your DS/LS decisions....

[Ivan the Terrible]

Disagree. What if my character was ultra-good but chose to go Dark because he was in love with Bastila?

 

You should never force decisions down people's throats if you can help it.

[Tyrell]

Let me compare this to school/grades.

 

If I am taking a test and I get all of the questions right, I should pass the test. (LS)

 

If I get all of the questions wrong, I should fail the test. (DS)

 

I shouldn't be able to get all of the questions wrong but have an essay question at the end and do good on that and be able to pass. Same way the other way around. I shouldn't get all the questions write on the test but yet do bad on the essay question and fail the whole thing.

[Shdy314]

Let me compare this to school/grades.

 

If I am taking a test and I get all of the questions right, I should pass the test. (LS)

 

If I get all of the questions wrong, I should fail the test. (DS)

 

I shouldn't be able to get all of the questions wrong but have an essay question at the end and do good on that and be able to pass. Same way the other way around. I shouldn't get all the questions write on the test but yet do bad on the essay question and fail the whole thing.

Your analogy is comepletely fallacious. People are not objective like a test. I already said this before but Ill say it again. LS JEDI ARE ALWAYS IN DANGER OF THE DS. No matter how great and good your character is through the whole game he can still fall to the DS and this is reflected in KOTOR 1. You idea gives me roleplaying options through the game but then suddenly at the end I get no control of my character? No thank you.

[Tyrell]

Disagree. What if my character was ultra-good but chose to go Dark because he was in love with Bastila?

 

You should never force decisions down people's throats if you can help it.

To prove what you said isn't justified, let me give you an example:

 

MAJOR STAR WARS: EPISODE III SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

Before the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel, Padme gets out of the ship that Obi-Wan came in. Obi-Wan didn't know she was in there. She was in there to try to come and bring Anakin back to good. Anakin loved her and everything, we see this in Attack of the Clones. But Anakin is so upset that Padme is not seeing things his way, he force chokes her, and uses force push to throw her body up against a wall where she is knocked out. Later on she dies just after giving birth to the twins.

 

 

 

END SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what you are saying about you being DS but doing what Bastila says cause you love her doesn't mean anything as I proved in that example.

[Meshugger]

Let me compare this to school/grades.

 

If I am taking a test and I get all of the questions right, I should pass the test. (LS)

 

If I get all of the questions wrong, I should fail the test. (DS)

 

I shouldn't be able to get all of the questions wrong but have an essay question at the end and do good on that and be able to pass. Same way the other way around. I shouldn't get all the questions write on the test but yet do bad on the essay question and fail the whole thing.

Your analogy is comepletely fallacious. People are not objective like a test. I already said this before but Ill say it again. LS JEDI ARE ALWAYS IN DANGER OF THE DS. No matter how great and good your character is through the whole game he can still fall to the DS and this is reflected in KOTOR 1. You idea gives me roleplaying options through the game but then suddenly at the end I get no control of my character? No thank you.

I see it more like the consequenses for your actions, if your characters is totally LS then he should act like what his character allows. Yes, the darkside is always present, but after acchiving LS Mastery, i found that it pretty far fetched.

[Shdy314]

Disagree. What if my character was ultra-good but chose to go Dark because he was in love with Bastila?

 

You should never force decisions down people's throats if you can help it.

To prove what you said isn't justified, let me give you an example:

 

MAJOR STAR WARS: EPISODE III SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

Before the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel, Padme gets out of the ship that Obi-Wan came in. Obi-Wan didn't know she was in there. She was in there to try to come and bring Anakin back to good. Anakin loved her and everything, we see this in Attack of the Clones. But Anakin is so upset that Padme is not seeing things his way, he force chokes her, and uses force push to throw her body up against a wall where she is knocked out. Later on she dies just after giving birth to the twins.

 

 

 

END SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what you are saying about you being DS but doing what Bastila says cause you love her doesn't mean anything as I proved in that example.

Yeah you don't know what happens in EPIII so you can not use a bunch of rumor and speculation in your argument. Anyways it proves nothing he said a LS Jedi might fall to the DS because they love Bastila. In your example Anakin is basically DS all upset and angry and then CHOOSES to force choke Padme. What about when he chooses to kill the Emperor after 20 years of evil deeds because he loves Luke? It's about choice. Your idea takes that away and that is why it will never happen. Try and be open to the evidence and don't just react to disagreements with your idea.

[Shdy314]

I see it more like the consequenses for your actions, if your characters is totally LS then he should act like what his character allows. Yes, the darkside is always present, but after acchiving LS Mastery, i found that it pretty far fetched.

Then there's the problem. You're not accepting one of the most basic tenets of star wars. DS IS ALWAYS A DANGER TO ANY LS JEDI NO MATTER WHAT. Does YOda go around force choking people and using dark side force powers? I mean he is super LS Jedi so he must be immune to the dark side yes? NO. It is a quest just like every other quest in the game and you are given both options just like every other quest.

[Tyrell]

Let me compare this to school/grades.

 

If I am taking a test and I get all of the questions right, I should pass the test. (LS)

 

If I get all of the questions wrong, I should fail the test. (DS)

 

I shouldn't be able to get all of the questions wrong but have an essay question at the end and do good on that and be able to pass. Same way the other way around. I shouldn't get all the questions write on the test but yet do bad on the essay question and fail the whole thing.

Your analogy is comepletely fallacious. People are not objective like a test. I already said this before but Ill say it again. LS JEDI ARE ALWAYS IN DANGER OF THE DS. No matter how great and good your character is through the whole game he can still fall to the DS and this is reflected in KOTOR 1. You idea gives me roleplaying options through the game but then suddenly at the end I get no control of my character? No thank you.

So you are complaining cause you want to go through the whole game on the DS but at the end just out of nowhere change to the LS?

 

I don't like that idea. If you want to be LS well dammit do LS choices during the game. If you want to be DS well do DS choices during the game.

 

You are all complaining about my idea not giving you control of your character but yet you do get full control of your character. Your control comes from what you do earlier in the game. You guys are just complaining cause you wouldn't just be able to switch in one instant.

 

 

But okay guys, let me throw a question at you.

 

So do you believe (In KOTOR I) that the choices you make during the game (Not the choice on the temple roof) determine the outcome of the galaxy? If not, then that just goes agaisn't what Bioware was throwing at us about are decisions we make in the game determining how the ending will play out. If that is true, then that is lies given to us by Bioware cause our decisions we make in the game DOESNT determain how the ending will play out and what the fate of the galaxy will be. What determines that is one single conversation on top of a Temple roof, THAT determines the fate of the galaxy.

 

So with that being said. Bioware should have said "You can play as a DS or LS character through the whole game, but the fate of the galaxy doesn't rely on that, but rather relies on one fateful moment 3/4 through the game". That would been more understandable. But they DIDNT! They said "You can play as a DS or LS character through the whole game and depending one what side you are on during the game determines how the ending will go"

 

 

Answer that!

[NInjaPirate]

So Tyrell, you are saying that if somebody acts evil their whole life then if they have a big decision to be good they have to choose the evil way. I'm sorry but that would mean that you have no control over you life.

[Meshugger]

I see it more like the consequenses for your actions, if your characters is totally LS then he should act like what his character allows. Yes, the darkside is always present, but after acchiving LS Mastery, i found that it pretty far fetched.

Then there's the problem. You're not accepting one of the most basic tenets of star wars. DS IS ALWAYS A DANGER TO ANY LS JEDI NO MATTER WHAT. Does YOda go around force choking people and using dark side force powers? I mean he is super LS Jedi so he must be immune to the dark side yes? NO. It is a quest just like every other quest in the game and you are given both options just like every other quest.

Ok, we're getting way to serious with the Star Wars mythology here, from a game-mechanical reasons i disagree with having "the choice". Simple cause and consequense.

[Tyrell]

I see it more like the consequenses for your actions, if your characters is totally LS then he should act like what his character allows. Yes, the darkside is always present, but after acchiving LS Mastery, i found that it pretty far fetched.

Then there's the problem. You're not accepting one of the most basic tenets of star wars. DS IS ALWAYS A DANGER TO ANY LS JEDI NO MATTER WHAT. Does YOda go around force choking people and using dark side force powers? I mean he is super LS Jedi so he must be immune to the dark side yes? NO. It is a quest just like every other quest in the game and you are given both options just like every other quest.

Again you are still talking about that option thingy. YOUR OPTION COMES DURING THE GAME WHEN YOU ARE FORCED TO MAKE LS/DS DECISIONS. Why should it all come down to one final moment?

 

Also that EP3 spoiler IS true. It isn't rumor. Goto Theforce.net to find out. Also if you have HyperSpace on SW.com watch the Video Village video and you'll see anakin doing what I said above.

 

And about the Vader saving Luke issue. The reason for that is cause he was destined to do that, bring balance to the force.

 

But anyways, just answer the question I asked you....I want and answer....

[Tyrell]

So Tyrell, you are saying that if somebody acts evil their whole life then if they have a big decision to be good they have to choose the evil way. I'm sorry but that would mean that you have no control over you life.

Just answer my question:

 

So do you believe (In KOTOR I) that the choices you make during the game (Not the choice on the temple roof) determine the outcome of the galaxy? If not, then that just goes agaisn't what Bioware was throwing at us about are decisions we make in the game determining how the ending will play out. If that is true, then that is lies given to us by Bioware cause our decisions we make in the game DOESNT determain how the ending will play out and what the fate of the galaxy will be. What determines that is one single conversation on top of a Temple roof, THAT determines the fate of the galaxy.

 

So with that being said. Bioware should have said "You can play as a DS or LS character through the whole game, but the fate of the galaxy doesn't rely on that, but rather relies on one fateful moment 3/4 through the game". That would been more understandable. But they DIDNT! They said "You can play as a DS or LS character through the whole game and depending one what side you are on during the game determines how the ending will go"

 

 

Answer that!

[Shdy314]

Let me compare this

So you are complaining cause you want to go through the whole game on the DS but at the end just out of nowhere change to the LS?

 

I don't like that idea. If you want to be LS well dammit do LS choices during the game. If you want to be DS well do DS choices during the game.

 

You are all complaining about my idea not giving you control of your character but yet you do get full control of your character. Your control comes from what you do earlier in the game. You guys are just complaining cause you wouldn't just be able to switch in one instant.

 

 

But okay guys, let me throw a question at you.

 

So do you believe (In KOTOR I) that the choices you make during the game (Not the choice on the temple roof) determine the outcome of the galaxy? If not, then that just goes agaisn't what Bioware was throwing at us about are decisions we make in the game determining how the ending will play out. If that is true, then that is lies given to us by Bioware cause our decisions we make in the game DOESNT determain how the ending will play out and what the fate of the galaxy will be. What determines that is one single conversation on top of a Temple roof, THAT determines the fate of the galaxy.

 

So with that being said. Bioware should have said "You can play as a DS or LS character through the whole game, but the fate of the galaxy doesn't rely on that, but rather relies on one fateful moment 3/4 through the game". That would been more understandable. But they DIDNT! They said "You can play as a DS or LS character through the whole game and depending one what side you are on during the game determines how the ending will go"

 

 

Answer that!

I will easily answer all of that BS.

 

I'm not complaining at all. I liked the final decision. You're the one complaining about something comepletely optional. I am not going to attempt to discuss this with you if you will not accept something that has been verified about a billion times in SW. ANy LS Jedi can fall at anytime. Sometimes it's gradual and sometimes it's one fateful choice. If you wont accept this there is no real discussion here. Even the most basic uninformed SW fan knows this for a fact.

 

You keep using extremes in examples. What about people that roleplayed a Grey kind of Jedi. Someone like Jolee who never chose one way or the other. The final choice was also designed to force more neutral character to finally choose a side.

 

You keep justifying taking away our ability to RP by saying you can RP elsewhere in the game. Surprisingly most people want to RP the whole time in an RPG game.

 

Thats right I am complaining I wouldn't be able to fall to the DS. I want to have that choice always available to me. Ive said why a million times. There are RP reasons and there are "realism" (realistic in the SW universe) reason.

 

The choices you make during the game do affect the fate of the galaxy. The temple rooftop IS ONE OF THOSE DECISIONS. And who says the decisions only affect the galaxy. They have serious repercussions for the fate of Manaan and Korriban, and the fates of individuals, etc.

 

It doesn't go against anything. As I just pointed out your character choices do matter throughout the game.

 

There are defining moments like this in all kind of games. It always comes down to the end. It's called a climax. What matters is how the universe and you have been affected throughout the game. If you are a super self righteous LS Jedi then RP that. But don't tell me my characters can never have a change of heart or anything. Otherwise why include LS or DS choices at all?

 

Everything that leads up to the rooftop affects your character and how he will react. At least it does if you're role playing.

 

Answered it all easily.

[Shdy314]

Ok, we're getting way to serious with the Star Wars mythology here, from a game-mechanical reasons i disagree with having "the choice". Simple cause and consequense.

Uh Hello. KOTOR is a game set in the SW universe. That means it has the same rules that have been established in a million and one sources. Otherwise it isn't SW anymore.

[Tyrell]

See, you can't answer the question cause you know that what we were told isn't true.

 

From LucasArts.com:

 

Engage in this saga set in the Golden Age of the Republic - over 4,000 years before the first Star Wars film, when both Jedi and Sith number in the thousands. With the Galaxy reeling from a recent conflict with the Dark Lords, the ongoing battle between the Jedi and the Sith rages on. Your actions determine the outcome of this colossal galactic war - and your destiny as a Jedi.

 

It said actions as in ALL the choices you make in the game. Not action which means that one action on top of that roof.

[Tehellet]

So Tyrell, you are saying that if somebody acts evil their whole life then if they have a big decision to be good they have to choose the evil way. I'm sorry but that would mean that you have no control over you life.

Its a valid point NInjaPirate.

 

Never in my life did I ever imagine that I'd address anyone that way.

[Shdy314]

 

Also that EP3 spoiler IS true. It isn't rumor. Goto Theforce.net to find out. Also if you have HyperSpace on SW.com watch the Video Village video and you'll see anakin doing what I said above.

 

And about the Vader saving Luke issue. The reason for that is cause he was destined to do that, bring balance to the force.

Okae fine then maybe Revan was destined to go DS no matter what. Or LS. Saying he did something because it was destiny is ludicrous. Destiny is only what someone will do because of who they are. Not because at the moment of truth destiny takes over their body and makes them do things a certain way.

How would you have liked the entire temple rooftop scene and beyond to be a cutscene while your destiny is fulfilled. Now that would have nullified all your choices in the game.

 

Also until the movie comes out anything can be changed. Unless Lucas himself says it. And even then there's a good chance he might still change it. It is also irrelevant so who cares?

[Shdy314]

See, you can't answer the question cause you know that what we were told isn't true.

 

From LucasArts.com:

 

Engage in this saga set in the Golden Age of the Republic - over 4,000 years before the first Star Wars film, when both Jedi and Sith number in the thousands. With the Galaxy reeling from a recent conflict with the Dark Lords, the ongoing battle between the Jedi and the Sith rages on. Your actions determine the outcome of this colossal galactic war - and your destiny as a Jedi.

 

It said actions as in ALL the choices you make in the game. Not action which means that one action on top of that roof.

Youre getting really worked up over something so unimportant. If you feel that a DS or LS Jedi should have no choice on the rooftop then just always play it that way. The option can remain there for us clearer headed more RP inclined players.

[Meshugger]

Ok, we're getting way to serious with the Star Wars mythology here, from a game-mechanical reasons i disagree with having "the choice". Simple cause and consequense.

Uh Hello. KOTOR is a game set in the SW universe. That means it has the same rules that have been established in a million and one sources. Otherwise it isn't SW anymore.

Again, i guess i'm not into SW enough to care about the lure of the darkside all the time. My judgement was strictly based on that when you're playing an RPG, there should be a time when you "suffer" from your choices you done in the past, this shouldn't be restricted to SW universe but to games in general.