[435] Too high damage numbers on character sheet when several Damage modifiers are applied

[ushas]

[Problem]
A combination of enchantments and Might damage modifiers causes the character sheet to display much higher damage than stated in item description or the mouse over tooltip. Furthermore, even in case of modifiers from talents, the character sheet is showing higher damage than when estimated additively.

 

For example, see:

 

 

Damage modifiers applied here:
21 Might (+33%)
Exceptional (x1.3)
Damaging 1 (x1.15)
Damaging 2 (x1.3)
Two-handed style (x1.1)
Adventurer specialization (x1.15)
Savage Attack (x1.2)

 

By additive rule the resulting damage should lie between:
min:  14 * (1 + 0.33 + 0.3 + 0.15 + 0.3 + 0.1 + 0.15 + 0.2) = 35.42
max: 20 * (1 + 0.33 + 0.3 + 0.15 + 0.3 + 0.1 + 0.15 + 0.2) = 50.60

--> Much lower damage range than the listed one on Character sheet (55-78).

 

A few notes:
- So far, the issue is not detected when there is only one damage modifier applied to the weapon presented (eg. in case of Fine or Exceptional weapon and Might = 10).
- I think the damage numbers on item description page take into account only item enchantments (quality) and Might modifier.
- Damaging enchantments stack, so Damaging 1 + Damaging 2 -> +45%. I'm pointing this out just in case it's not intended behaviour.

 

 

 

[Expected behaviour]
To see the right actual numbers on character screen according to the additive rule, in compliance with other sources of damage information (item description, tooltips, combat log).
 

 

 

[Discussion and more examples]
In the past BB version, there was problem with multiplicative application of damage modifiers. According to the discussion with Sensuki, who was reporting and repeatedly checking the the multiplicative issue, and according to statements of Josh -- the assuption taken here is that the right damage values are those estimated by the additive rule.

 

In this report I speculate, that the damage issue is perhaps still preserved for numbers shown on the character sheet -> thus the higher damage values for more than one damage modifier. Below, there are some more examples to back this up.

 

1) Quality Enchantments (Damaging 1 | Fine: x1.15, Damaging 2 | Exceptional: x1.3):

 

Though the issue is already presented for Damaging 1 + Might modifier (the middle picture), the most obvious is the right one: 

Sword (base 11-16) + Might mod (+33% damage) + Damaging 1 (x1.15) + Damaging 2 (x1.3)

 

Additive:
min: 11 * (1 + 0.33 + 0.15 + 0.30) = 19.580
max: 16 * (1 + 0.33 + 0.15 + 0.30) = 28.480

Multiplicative:
min: 11 * (1 * 1.33 * 1.15 * 1.30) = 21.872
max: 16 * (1 * 1.33 * 1.15 * 1.30) = 31.814

 

-> The character sheet numbers are closer to Multiplicative calculation (22-32).

 

 

2) Modal talents (Savage Attack x1.2, Reckless Assault x1.2)

 

Dagger (base 8-12) + Might mod (+33%) + Exceptional (x1.3) + Savage Attack active (x1.2):

 

Additive:
min:    8 * (1 + 0.33 + 0.30 + 0.20) = 14.640
max: 12 * (1 + 0.33 + 0.30 + 0.20) = 21.960

Multiplicative:
min:    8 * (1 * 1.33 * 1.30 * 1.20) = 16.598
max: 12 * (1 * 1.33 * 1.30 * 1.20) = 24.898

 

-> Again, the rounded character sheet damage (17-25) is too high for additive estimation.

 

 

 

3) Passive talents (Specializations: I think it's x1.15, Two-handed style x1.1)

 

Compare to the left picture, the BB Fighter on right has Two-Handed style talent:
Pike (base 14-20 Damage) + BB Fighter (Might 22 --> +36% damage) + Two-Handed Style Talent (x1.1 Damage)

 

Additive:
min:  14 * (1 + 0.36 + 0.1) = 20.440
max: 20 * (1 + 0.36 + 0.1) = 29.200

Multiplicative:
min:  14 * (1 * 1.36 * 1.1) = 20.944
max: 20 * (1 * 1.36 * 1.1) = 29.920

 

On character screen it's listed: 21-30 Damage
-> This doesn't fit additive calculation.

Edited March 1, 2015 by ushas

[ushas]

[bBv480]

Due to changes in some damage ranges, perhaps an updated report would be useful:

 

[Problem]

Short version: The character sheet is still displaying higher damage than used in the game, as reported for the beta v435. There are also perhaps several possible sources of confusion, namely due to different damage ranges of weapons presented without further explanation.

 

 

[More detailed example]

BB Priest + Exceptional Great Sword:

Damage modifiers in use:

Exceptional property of item: +30%

Might modifier (17 Might):      +21%

Two-handed Style Talent:      +10%

 

 

Game provides damage information in several instances. For the above specified setup, see picture below. Now one can guess which of these damage ranges are actually in use in game when attacking?

a) Character sheet info;

b) Tooltip damage range;

c) Damage from item description window.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Answer: To my limited knowledge neither of them. Sorry for a tricky question:)

However this is not some big revelation, as in my opinion there is only one still the same possible bug.

 

Several damage calculations for comparison purposes (feel free to skip):

Base damage of Great Sword: (14-20)

Item property included:
min: 14 * (1.00 + 0.30) = 18.200
max: 20 * (1.00 + 0.30) = 26.000

Item property + might modifier:
Additive:
min: 14 * (1.0 + 0.30 + 0.21) = 21.140
max: 20 * (1.0 + 0.30 + 0.21) = 30.200
Multiplicative:
min: 14 * (1.0 * 1.30 * 1.21) = 22.022
max: 20 * (1.0 * 1.30 * 1.21) = 31.460

Item property + might modifier + Two-handed style talent:
Additive:
min: 14 * (1.0 + 0.30 + 0.21 + 0.10) = 22.540
max: 20 * (1.0 + 0.30 + 0.21 + 0.10) = 32.200
Multiplicative:
min: 14 * (1.0 * 1.30 * 1.21 * 1.10) = 24.224
max: 20 * (1.0 * 1.30 * 1.21 * 1.10) = 34.606

 

 

 

According to the combat log and the assumptions taken in the previous post, the game actually uses the additive calculation.

So the normal hit damage will probably lie in the range:

(22.54 - 32.20) -> when rounded it's (23 - 32)

 

 

 

 

Now if we compare this to the info provided by game, my speculations for individual sources are:

 

a) Character sheet:  24 - 35

   -> takes into account all the used modifiers here but wrongly uses the rounded multiplicative calculation when showing the numbers. This is in my opinion probably the bug.

 

b) Item tooltip:     21 - 30 (base 18 - 26)

   -> fits additive calculation, includes might modifier and item property, not the talent though. This is probably not a bug. However, I'm not sure whether it's intended like this, or it's work in progress. (In the past beta the behavior was similar)

 

c) Item description: 18 - 26

   -> Compare to the past beta, an item description now takes into account only item's properties -> Exceptional quality here (so not outside personal modifiers such as might one). This is probably intentional change.

 

 

 

 

[Expected behavior]

 

Character sheet should display the real damage range used in game, including all the actual damage modifiers in use estimated by additive calculation.

[ushas]

Suggestions for possible better usability of weapon damage ranges:

There are two basic assumptions taken into account here:
-- Developers intend to provide as much info as possible, which is needed for understanding damage calculations done in the game;
-- As well as want to provide ready to go UI where players see right away the changes, so they don't need to fully understand the rules and do the math, when making decisions.

If I'm wrong either in the assumptions or calculations, I would be grateful for any corrections or critique.



1) Character sheet:
Besides the damage calculation correction, it would be useful, if all the damage modifiers actually in use are included in the damage range on the character sheet.

How it is now (BBv480): If I turn on modal talent it's probably included (for example Savage Attack talent), but the spell Blessing, which also gives +10% to damage, doesn't change the range presented on the character sheet. I don't know whether it isn't some possible bug, but other abilities or talents haven't been tested.


2) Tooltips:
Provide two damage ranges in the item tooltip -- one which is equal to that on the character sheet and the second one which is equal to the damage range of the item itself (without the personal modifiers, listed in the item description).

The duality itself and the second option in the brackets are already in game. So I'm basically only proposing to unify the first damage range with the character sheet info. Besides minimizing the confusion from different damage ranges, this may be useful for to see outcome for the selected character without the need to check the character sheet, as well as when comparing weapons between each other. (both would be useful also in shops)


3) Descriptions and the real base damage:
Provide the real base damage range in the item's descriptions and don't label the damage range in the tooltips as the "base".

This suggestion is done with a need of the damage formula explanation on mind, basically in compliance with Sensuki's suggestions for Cyclopedia. For further details see
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70820-poorly-explained-mechanics-in-the-cyclopedia/?p=1579078

The original cyclopedia page explaining damage and the Sensuki's proposal in that thread are using words "base damage", which is the same as is used in the damage calculations in the previous posts. So in the case of Great Swords it's always (14-20) Slash/Pierce.

However, this is not the same "base" which is displayed in tooltips in the brackets (the current beta v480). So I think, that may be possible source of confusion, when interested players may accidentally use the range from the tooltips as the base for the additive estimations.





Taking into account all three proposals here, the screenshot from the report above can look like this:

 

 

Note: There is also an accidental intentional change x1.3 -> +30% for the Exceptional damage modifier.

 

Below is also mockup of the same screenshot as above providing possibly more detailed info:

 

 

 

 

Note:
-- If we show more detailed damage ranges the same goes for DR subtypes of armours (see the picture);
-- Through the numbers are still pretty much rounded, this has two advantages: probably still fits in the windows when using different font sizes, and the numbers are the same as in the combat log formula.
-- Yeah I understand that this one wouldn't be considered for the game's day one patch nor probably considered in the future at all...

 

 

Edited March 17, 2015 by ushas

[Sensuki]

I pretty much agree with the above post, although it is difficult to balance the different requirements for different displays. I think having the weapon descriptions show it's full damage with quality modifiers is fair enough because that's how other games do it.

 

I'm also not against always showing the base damage of a weapon in the item description either.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Sensuki