Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)

[RushAndAPush]

 

You and Sensuki say that they're messing up.

I can show you an entire backer beta forum with hundreds of threads that prove that it's not just "me and sensuki". So maybe we can dispense with the silly argumentum ad populum attempts already?

 

 

Still haven't heard a good argument from either of you for keeping pre-buffs.

Most people who plug their ears and scream "I can't hear you! I can't hear you":, typically won't hear any good arguments. Thankfully, Josh Sawyer isn't as deaf as you are. Even HE has seen a few of our arguments and made some adjustments to the beta. Why do you think the Inventory has 2 rows now instead of 1? Why do you think stat bonuses go into the negatives now? Why do you think you get Bestiary XP now?

 

That's right. Because WE complained that the Original design for these things was crap. So it was all eventually changed.

 

No, I heard you. It's just that I haven't heard a solid argument against the points I've made previously. Please dont insult me. I really dont appreciate it. This is a discussion about if prebuffs are worth keeping in the game. I'm not saying all of the criticism for this game didn't have positive impacts.

 

Everything wasn't changed because this game isn't an exact replica of BG2

Edited January 15, 2015 by RushAndAPush

[Quantics]

You can think so but you are wrong. You will see after release when the community comes in full numbers. I seen what happened to WL2 and they didn't even name drop Fallout in their KS.

****storm is coming. OE could have avoided it if they didn't use IE games to get more money but now they deserve all the bad with all the good they already harvested.

 

 

So much drama. 

[Gromnir]

Here we go again (just like the other thread). Did you enjoy playing an all gnome party? I guess so? I don't have a problem with that.

 

He was implying that he cheesed feeblemind and save scummed to get through encounters and was also implying that he found it not fun. If so, that's his own fault tbh as there are a plethora of other ways to beat encounters that are far more enjoyable and satisfying than that.

 

pure subjective hokum. point out that his were clearly not the only way to do things and that a more varied approach were likely enjoyed by other people? sure.  tell him that the way he played, "mustn't have been very fun" is as silly as were Gromnir's comment.  

 

di, a regular from long before you ever showed up on these boards, would s'posedley re-roll her characters until she got superhero scores. then she would breeze through combats like the Justice League fighting the molokai lepers.  we didn't see how such an approach could be fun, but when she told us she liked the game better that we, we didn't even think to tell her that she didn't know what fun were or how to enjoy a game.  what kinda arse would we be if we said such thing?

 

we did argue that using a game editor would save her much time as 'posed to rolling, but she claimed that the act o' rolling her superheroes were fun.

 

*shrug*

 

dunno, but this kinda stuff should not be needing explanation or debate.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sensuki]

No, I heard you. It's just that I haven't heard a solid argument against the points I've made previously. Please dont insult me. I really dont appreciate it. This is a discussion about if prebuffs are worth keeping in the game. I'm not saying all of the criticism for this game didn't have positive impacts.

 

Everything wasn't changed because this game isn't an exact replica of BG2

Well technically we could say that we haven't heard a solid argument that justifies removing it either, if we were going to take the same way of approaching the discussion as you appear to be.

 

I'm not super mad about the loss of pre-buffs (I did like them though), BUT their alternative is actually worse, and makes most of the spells that you would technically consider using as a pre-buff not worth casting in combat anyway. The game could be done without pre-buffs, but the way they have implemented it designed the spells/system is not very good and is certainly worse than IE spellcasting IMO.

 

pure subjective hokum. point out that his were clearly not the only way to do things and that a more varied approach were likely enjoyed by other people? sure. tell him that the way he played, "mustn't have been very fun" is as silly as were Gromnir's comment.

 

di, a regular from long before you ever showed up on these boards, would s'posedley re-roll her characters until she got superhero scores. then she would breeze through combats like the Justice League fighting the molokai lepers. we didn't see how such an approach could be fun, but when she told us she liked the game better that we, we didn't even think to tell her that she didn't know what fun were or how to enjoy a game. what kinda arse would we be if we said such thing?

 

we did argue that using a game editor would save her much time as 'posed to rolling, but she claimed that the act o' rolling her superheroes were fun.

 

*shrug*

 

dunno, but this kinda stuff should not be needing explanation or debate.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I believe you missed the entire point of my post, but I suppose after the Codex Top 10 thread, I wouldn't be surprised.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Sensuki

[Stun]

No, I heard you. It's just that I haven't heard a solid argument against the points I've made previously.

Yes, You have. You simply ignored it.

 

 

One More time. Without the freedom to pre-buff, Combat becomes 100% reactionary. Which works fine in Action RPGs like Dragon Age 2, because the whole point in those games is to maintain the 'fast paced, seat of your pants adrenaline thrill'. But in a classic RPG like PoE, that simply does not fly. You should have the ability to prepare. The game should allow you to scout ahead, analyze the encounter composition, and then prepare for it.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Stun

[Gromnir]

 

No, I heard you. It's just that I haven't heard a solid argument against the points I've made previously. Please dont insult me. I really dont appreciate it. This is a discussion about if prebuffs are worth keeping in the game. I'm not saying all of the criticism for this game didn't have positive impacts.

 

Everything wasn't changed because this game isn't an exact replica of BG2

Well technically we could say that we haven't heard a solid argument that justifies removing it either, if we were going to take the same way of approaching the discussion as you appear to be.

 

I'm not super mad about the loss of pre-buffs (I did like them though), BUT their alternative is actually worse, and makes most of the spells that you would technically consider using as a pre-buff not worth casting in combat anyway. The game could be done without pre-buffs, but the way they have implemented it designed the spells/system is not very good and is certainly worse than IE spellcasting IMO.

 

pure subjective hokum. point out that his were clearly not the only way to do things and that a more varied approach were likely enjoyed by other people? sure. tell him that the way he played, "mustn't have been very fun" is as silly as were Gromnir's comment.

 

di, a regular from long before you ever showed up on these boards, would s'posedley re-roll her characters until she got superhero scores. then she would breeze through combats like the Justice League fighting the molokai lepers. we didn't see how such an approach could be fun, but when she told us she liked the game better that we, we didn't even think to tell her that she didn't know what fun were or how to enjoy a game. what kinda arse would we be if we said such thing?

 

we did argue that using a game editor would save her much time as 'posed to rolling, but she claimed that the act o' rolling her superheroes were fun.

 

*shrug*

 

dunno, but this kinda stuff should not be needing explanation or debate.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I believe you missed the entire point of my post, but I suppose after the Codex Top 10 thread, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

no, we got you. he exploited a game mechanic.  so what?  is a fundamental flaw you and others got: a belief that there is a proper way to make or play crpgs. you disabuse yourself o' that notion and you will have a whole new world open up for you.

 

regardless, we also addressed what you posted . regardless o' your claims about exploits, you said, 

 

"I have a full Let's Play of IWD that shows how I played that game, and you'll see that for most of the big fights I don't use a single prebuff. Sometimes I use maybe one."

 

so what? you want some kinda prize?  what do we get for our gnome party?

 

you also said that the way somebody played the game couldn't have been much fun... which, especially given that we is talking about crpgs is just so freaking bass akwards we can't help but chuckle.

 

this ain't anybody's problem but yours.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sensuki]

Well actually, reactionary combat would be good. PE combat isn't reactionary though it's mostly strategical and opening. If pre-buffs did exist, most encounters would probably be decided by the opening set of actions (which did happen in the earlier versions, now it's not quite so skewed). After the 'first wave' of combat and engagement has set up there's not really anything to react to, you just fire off new abilities when recovery time comes off and that's it - not really much depth to it.

 

 

 

no, we got you. he exploited a game mechanic.  so what?  is a fundamental flaw you and others got: a belief that there is a proper way to make or play crpgs. you disabuse yourself o' that notion and you will have a whole new world open up for you.

 

Actually no. One of the reasons for this thread (not the only one) is that people were not acknowledging 'our' way of playing the Infinity Engine games. There are many people here that make these unfounded accusations about the game and the combat that are just simply not true. At least PrimeJunta can now see what we mean - part of the reason for the thread is to experiment with the IE games again with newfound 'grognard' knowledge.

 

The point you missed was he was complaining about playing the game a way that he did not find fun (or so he led me to believe), when there are plenty of ways to have fun playing this game. You know some, I know some. There is no need to save scum and cheese the Feeblemind spell in order to win the encounters, if the objective is to enjoy the game - there are other alternatives. Many of them.

 

 

 

so what? you want some kinda prize?

No, but I have video evidence of it. I can actually back up what I am talking about

 

 

 

you also said that the way somebody played the game couldn't have been much fun... which, especially given that we is talking about crpgs is just so freaking bass akwards we can't help but chuckle.

this ain't anybody's problem but yours.

 

No, he was implying that he didn't have fun. You seem to be the one with the problem gromnir.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Sensuki

[archangel979]

 

You can think so but you are wrong. You will see after release when the community comes in full numbers. I seen what happened to WL2 and they didn't even name drop Fallout in their KS.

 

****storm is coming. OE could have avoided it if they didn't use IE games to get more money but now they deserve all the bad with all the good they already harvested.

 

So much drama.

 

If you think this is drama, haha, wait for after release.

[RushAndAPush]

 

Yes, You have. You simply ignored it.

 

 

One More time. Without the freedom to pre-buff, Combat becomes 100% reactionary. Which works fine in Action RPGs like Dragon Age 2, because the whole point in those games is to maintain the 'fast paced, seat of your pants adrenaline thrill'. But in a classic RPG like PoE, that simply does not fly. You should have the ability to prepare. The game should allow you to scout ahead, analyze the encounter composition, and then prepare for it.

 

Pre-buffing in no way adds anything stratigic to the game.  Removing pre-buffing does not make the game anymore more like dragon age 2. In Baldurs Gate it's trial by death. You die. You figure out what you did wrong, buff more things, then kill everything. This doesnt enhance anyhing in my opinion.

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

 

You can think so but you are wrong. You will see after release when the community comes in full numbers. I seen what happened to WL2 and they didn't even name drop Fallout in their KS.

 

****storm is coming. OE could have avoided it if they didn't use IE games to get more money but now they deserve all the bad with all the good they already harvested.

 

So much drama.

 

If you think this is drama, haha, wait for after release.

 

You appear to be enjoying this 'drama'.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Quetzalcoatl

[Stun]

pre-buffs were a largely time consuming ritual,

So? In any RPG that lasts more than 10 hours, combat ITSELF is a time consuming ritual. But that doesn't mean it should be removed.

 

 

The point is that Prebuffing is one element of many that comprises combat. Eliminating it is no different than eliminating any other part of combat. And in this day and age where every new RPG removes something that used to exist before, all in the name of 'accessability', Here comes Gromnir again, praising the virtues of every DUMBED DOWN Modern day attempt at streamlining

Edited January 15, 2015 by Stun

[Gromnir]

 

 

so what? you want some kinda prize?

 

No, but I have video evidence of it. I can actually back up what I am talking about

 

dear lord.

 

So

 

Freaking

 

What?

 

why on earth would anybody care that you got video evidence?  why would we care if you could beat iwd without pre-buffing?  we know folks who played iwd and bg2 solo. so what?  why would we care if you had video evidence if we already stated we don't care whether or not you could, would, or even you want to complete iwd w/o pre-buffing?

 

this is getting bizarre. honest.

 

the rest is repetitive. am not having much luck explaining thing to you o' late.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

 

Yes, You have. You simply ignored it.

 

 

One More time. Without the freedom to pre-buff, Combat becomes 100% reactionary. Which works fine in Action RPGs like Dragon Age 2, because the whole point in those games is to maintain the 'fast paced, seat of your pants adrenaline thrill'. But in a classic RPG like PoE, that simply does not fly. You should have the ability to prepare. The game should allow you to scout ahead, analyze the encounter composition, and then prepare for it.

Pre-buffing in no way adds anything stratigic to the game.

 

Ok, Mr. Military General. Go ahead and invade another country without Planning and preparing for it. Herp Derp. Edited January 15, 2015 by Stun

[archangel979]

 

 

And it's absurd to claim that you had to go through the same prebuffing ritual before every major battle. You most certainly did NOT. I used vastly different buffs before Beholder fights than I did before Lich battles (for example)

I think a lot of people did, due to the way resting worked in (most of) the IE games, so they threw on everything they could, every battle. Haste, Prayer, Death Protection, the works. And then they just rested and repeated.

 

The sad thing is that with the resting system in PoE, such behaviour would automatically be curtailed to a degree, and getting rid of "blanket" buffs (like Bless) or toning others down (like Haste) would solve this issue completely.

 

Instead of sticking to what made sense in context, they decided to introduce mechanics to curtail the autobot-buffing-behaviour and then take out the pre-buffing completely, for some reason. Which is a baby-out-with-the-bathwater situation if I ever saw it.

 

Pre-buffing should be a matter of strategic prepwork, and the cost of doing it should be the spells of the buffer, nevermind the fact that everyone in PoE practically operates under a form of Sorcerer spellcasting, meaning that if you prepare buffing spells, you'd have to sacrifice something else (as opposed to how it largely worked in the IE games).

 

PoE has some mechanics that would make prebuffing work really, really well. It just doesn't have prebuffing for some goddamn reason.

 

Edit: Dang, ninja'd by Sensuki, more or less.

I don't even think prebuffing was bad in BG games but it was terrible in NWN2. I think Sawyer fear of prebuffing comes from that game. But again the problem was same as in BG = being able to rest anywhere and in nwn2 you could not even be attacked while doing it.

So in PoE they already fix this by implementing supplies (which was a great idea) but then go overboard and kill any prebuffing.

 

there are better solutions:

1. You can only have one long lasting buff at one time.

2. All prebuffs are daily spells

[Sensuki]

Pre-buffing in no way adds anything stratigic to the game.

Incorrect, see my previous posts on the subject.

 

In Baldurs Gate it's trial by death. You die. You figure out what you did wrong, buff more things, then kill everything. This doesnt enhance anyhing in my opinion.

 

Also incorrect. You don't have to apply more buffs to kill everything. You can use different weapons, different items, attack different targets first, interrupt enemy casters, switch aggro mid combat - all sorts of stuff not related to pre-buffing to win encounters. You can pre-buff too, but it's using a per day spell slot, and you can usually game around using them.

 

dear lord.

 

So

 

Freaking

 

What?

 

why on earth would anybody care that you got video evidence?  why would we care if you could beat iwd without pre-buffing?  we know folks who played iwd and bg2 solo. so what?  why would we care if you had video evidence if we already stated we don't care whether or not you could, would, or even you want to complete iwd w/o pre-buffing?

 

this is getting bizarre. honest.

 

the rest is repetitive. am not having much luck explaining thing to you o' late. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Once again you missed the point (which seems to be a very common occurrence). There are people on this forum that think that Infinity Engine combat pretty much consists of cheesing the game to win, and are not even aware that there are so many things that you can do strategically or tactically to win encounters without cheesing, abusing rest, using exploits or anything like that. It doesn't matter that you don't care that I have a Let's Play - I have shown it to various people on the forum who previously didn't know that you could do some of that stuff and they have been educated by it.

 

What's more, that particular post that you quoted the first time was not aimed at you, either. I did not post that I had a Let's Play in response to you.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Sensuki

[archangel979]

 

 

 

 

You can think so but you are wrong. You will see after release when the community comes in full numbers. I seen what happened to WL2 and they didn't even name drop Fallout in their KS.

 

****storm is coming. OE could have avoided it if they didn't use IE games to get more money but now they deserve all the bad with all the good they already harvested.

So much drama.

If you think this is drama, haha, wait for after release.

You appear to be enjoying this 'drama'.

and you seem to enjoy trolling.

[Gromnir]

 

pre-buffs were a largely time consuming ritual,

So? In any RPG that lasts more than 10 hours, combat ITSELF is a time consuming ritual. But that doesn't mean it should be removed.

 

 

The point is that Prebuffing is one element of many that comprises combat. Eliminating it is no different than eliminating any other part of combat. And in this day and age where every new RPG removes something that used to exist before, all in the name of 'streamlining', Here you come again, Gromnir, advocating the virtues of the DUMBED DOWN Modern mechanics that have ruined the entire genre.

 

prebuffing is an element o' ie combat and you ain't established that it is a particularly compelling aspect. the dumb thing to do would be to add in a largely mindless and ritualistic feature for no other reason than that it existed in previous ie games.

 

and again, prebuffing ain't being removed from anything.  the question is whether or not such a thing is worth including in poe.  the mere existence of prebuffing in ie games does not give it merit.

 

freaking golden calf.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sensuki]

It's not mindless though. It's just that people are lazy and can't see the difference between casting Recitation out of combat and only getting 3-4 rounds duration of the buff, or casting it in combat and getting 6 rounds of the buff.

[RushAndAPush]

 

 

pre-buffs were a largely time consuming ritual,

So? In any RPG that lasts more than 10 hours, combat ITSELF is a time consuming ritual. But that doesn't mean it should be removed.

 

 

The point is that Prebuffing is one element of many that comprises combat. Eliminating it is no different than eliminating any other part of combat. And in this day and age where every new RPG removes something that used to exist before, all in the name of 'streamlining', Here you come again, Gromnir, advocating the virtues of the DUMBED DOWN Modern mechanics that have ruined the entire genre.

 

prebuffing is an element o' ie combat and you ain't established that it is a particularly compelling aspect. the dumb thing to do would be to add in a largely mindless and ritualistic feature for no other reason than that it existed in previous ie games.

 

and again, prebuffing ain't being removed from anything.  the question is whether or not such a thing is worth including in poe.  the mere existence of prebuffing in ie games does not give it merit.

 

freaking golden calf.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

"the mere existence of prebuffing in ie games does not give it merit."

 

I think this is what we should all take away from this discussion.

[archangel979]

 

Pre-buffing in no way adds anything stratigic to the game.

Incorrect, see my previous posts on the subject.

 

In Baldurs Gate it's trial by death. You die. You figure out what you did wrong, buff more things, then kill everything. This doesnt enhance anyhing in my opinion.

Also incorrect. You don't have to apply more buffs to kill everything. You can use different weapons, different items, attack different targets first, interrupt enemy casters, switch aggro mid combat - all sorts of stuff not related to pre-buffing to win encounters. You can pre-buff too, but it's using a per day spell slot, and you can usually game around using them.

 

dear lord.

 

So

 

Freaking

 

What?

 

why on earth would anybody care that you got video evidence? why would we care if you could beat iwd without pre-buffing? we know folks who played iwd and bg2 solo. so what? why would we care if you had video evidence if we already stated we don't care whether or not you could, would, or even you want to complete iwd w/o pre-buffing?

 

this is getting bizarre. honest.

 

the rest is repetitive. am not having much luck explaining thing to you o' late.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Once again you missed the point (which seems to be a very common occurrence). There are people on this forum that think that Infinity Engine combat pretty much consists of cheesing the game to win, and are not even aware that there are so many things that you can do strategically or tactically to win encounters without cheesing, abusing rest, using exploits or anything like that. It doesn't matter that you don't care that I have a Let's Play - I have shown it to various people on the forum who previously didn't know that you could do some of that stuff and they have been educated by it.

 

What's more, that particular post that you quoted the first time was not aimed at you, either. I did not post that I had a Let's Play in response to you.

The bigger problem is that Sawyer also thinks so. Why put such a man in charge of spiritual successor I will never understand.

 

At this point I trust Beamdog more to make a true IE sucessor than OE.

[Gromnir]

 

Pre-buffing in no way adds anything stratigic to the game.

Incorrect, see my previous posts on the subject.

 

In Baldurs Gate it's trial by death. You die. You figure out what you did wrong, buff more things, then kill everything. This doesnt enhance anyhing in my opinion.

 

Also incorrect. You don't have to apply more buffs to kill everything. You can use different weapons, different items, attack different targets first, interrupt enemy casters, switch aggro mid combat - all sorts of stuff not related to pre-buffing to win encounters. You can pre-buff too, but it's using a per day spell slot, and you can usually game around using them.

 

dear lord.

 

So

 

Freaking

 

What?

 

why on earth would anybody care that you got video evidence?  why would we care if you could beat iwd without pre-buffing?  we know folks who played iwd and bg2 solo. so what?  why would we care if you had video evidence if we already stated we don't care whether or not you could, would, or even you want to complete iwd w/o pre-buffing?

 

this is getting bizarre. honest.

 

the rest is repetitive. am not having much luck explaining thing to you o' late. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Once again you missed the point (which seems to be a very common occurrence). There are people on this forum that think that Infinity Engine combat pretty much consists of cheesing the game to win, and are not even aware that there are so many things that you can do strategically or tactically to win encounters without cheesing, abusing rest, using exploits or anything like that. It doesn't matter that you don't care that I have a Let's Play - I have shown it to various people on the forum who previously didn't know that you could do some of that stuff and they have been educated by it.

 

What's more, that particular post that you quoted the first time was not aimed at you, either. I did not post that I had a Let's Play in response to you.

 

doesn't matter who it were directed at.  the point stands that one guy being able to play a past ie game a certain way has got absolute zero relevance regarding the present issue.

 

who cares?  why should anybody care?  

 

wacky.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[archangel979]

Same can be said for all your post as well Gromnir. Who cares for your posts without any proof as well.

[Sensuki]

One guy being able to play a past ie game a certain way has got absolute zero relevance regarding the present issue.

Yeah it does. The current topic of debate when you arrived was pre-buffing. My playthrough is relevant if you want to see how to win some encounters in Icewind Dale without pre-buffing (eg. Malavon).

[Gromnir]

 

One guy being able to play a past ie game a certain way has got absolute zero relevance regarding the present issue.

Yeah it does. The current topic of debate when you arrived was pre-buffing. My playthrough is relevant if you want to see how to win some encounters in Icewind Dale without pre-buffing (eg. Malavon).

 

so what?  

 

this is insane.

 

who cares if you could beat malavon with no prebuffing?  why do you think that matters insofar as the possible implementation of pre-buffing in poe?  

 

you did it. we will happily consider it a fact that you were able to beat godzilla or malavon or whomever without any prebuffing... and we sure as hell don't need watch tedious video evidence o' such a thing (though we wonders what would possess somebody to bother recording such stuff.)

 

so

 

what?

 

if poe were called sensuki's journey: part deux, and game were made for you to replicate your ie "fun," then we would understand your bizarre obsession with exposing your ie gameplay for the whole world to see, but so what?  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sensuki]

I was not asking you to. The you I used in that post was you (plural). The point is the same as a previous post I made, a point which you either skimmed over, or are just plain ignoring.

 

There are people on this forum that think that Infinity Engine combat pretty much consists of cheesing the game to win, and are not even aware that there are so many things that you can do strategically or tactically to win encounters without cheesing, abusing rest, using exploits or anything like that.

Pre-buffing is still useful, and an alternative to casting in combat with an opportunity cost (sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse - depends on the game, spell and encounter). It could have been better balanced absolutely, but just flat out removing it is simply listening to the ignorant portion of the fanbase only.