Alive world?

[Dark_Ansem]

how alive is the world of PoE?

[Starwars]

You'll have to clarify what you mean by that.

[Dark_Ansem]

I suspected it

 

Well, I mean in terms of gameplay, first and foremost: are NPCs reactive to the decisions of the player? do the party's action have an effect on the surroundings and, potentially, the entire game world?

 

I also mean in terms of aesthetics: are sfxs placed with 3d emitters that make you feel birds singing, water flowing, bats chirping and flapping? in a haunted mansion, are there whispers that randomly jump in the location, giving a good scare to the party?

 

Do we get more than a light-out at night, or it's possible to meet npcs who have night routines, night-only monsters, do we get pixies to sprout from bushes at night in a shower of sparks?

 

Are there factions in this game that we can join, each one with its own complicated relationships towards each other and ranks?

Do monster attack the player together, or, say, a lion will target a deer first and the player later? in short, are there complex factional relationships?

 

EDIT: I'd also like to see more than a standard "game over" when you lose an encounter. while some still require that, I'd like to see additional results for others, rather than death. like, imprisonment, or some sort of penalty like being stranded, or put into a dungeon from which escape. or failing to complete an encounter means that you awake, like, in an inn, and your enemy has succeeded, and the landscape of the game has changed, and you have to deal with it.

in short: no reload on defeat.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Dark_Ansem

[Starwars]

Hard to get a good grip on that from the beta. I'm gonna have to assume that there will be reactivity from NPCs and such based on your choices. There is also a reputation system in place for different faction in the world, so even if we won't be able to join them (no idea if we can), there will at least be some sort of reactivity attached to them.

 

It doesn't look like there will be any real changes from day to night unfortunately. It doesn't seem like the devs would have enough time for it any way but I would've liked to see at least something simple where some of the commoners will be "cleaned up" from the streets and shops will close, but it doesn't look that way.

I'm not 100% sure though that there will be *no* effect at all.

 

Monsters attack only the player at the moment in the beta.

 

I'm thinking most of the complexities will come from characters and whatever the in-game factions will be (though again, there is no such thing from within the scope of the beta). Not so much from wildlife and an "eco system" so to speak.

 

Most of what PoE does is within the scope of the IE games in one form or another, I wouldn't expect it to stray too far from that.

[Dark_Ansem]

Hard to get a good grip on that from the beta. I'm gonna have to assume that there will be reactivity from NPCs and such based on your choices. There is also a reputation system in place for different faction in the world, so even if we won't be able to join them (no idea if we can), there will at least be some sort of reactivity attached to them.

 

It doesn't look like there will be any real changes from day to night unfortunately. It doesn't seem like the devs would have enough time for it any way but I would've liked to see at least something simple where some of the commoners will be "cleaned up" from the streets and shops will close, but it doesn't look that way.

I'm not 100% sure though that there will be *no* effect at all.

 

Monsters attack only the player at the moment in the beta.

 

I'm thinking most of the complexities will come from characters and whatever the in-game factions will be (though again, there is no such thing from within the scope of the beta). Not so much from wildlife and an "eco system" so to speak.

 

Most of what PoE does is within the scope of the IE games in one form or another, I wouldn't expect it to stray too far from that.

 

thank you

I understand the scope of IE games, but too much traditionalism can make the game feel "old" despite being brand new. I woulnd't be afraid of experimenting and daring!

after all, you're in beta still far from game release: now it's the time to imagine the impossible and then find a way to realize it, not to be too timid and shy

[Guest 4ward]

would also like to see what you guys suggest. I don’t play the beta so can’t tell, and it’s also hard to judge anyway with a beta but i was awed when they showed off their animation of water level raising in a river bed, i guess showing the tides. I hope we’ll see that in the final game. They have leaves falling for example and i would like to experience something like when you want to exit an inn and you open the door you hear the wind or raindrops from the outside and due to the air breeze light would flicker, something like that. Then also non-quest npcs with a schedule rather than walking from a to b, like it would be nice that when you revisit a village than there’s e.g. a group of children playing at the spot where earlier two adults had a conversation, things like that.

[Dark_Ansem]

I missed that video, where is it?

[Guest 4ward]

http://eternity.obsidian.net/news/update-49-water-trees-daynight-lighting-all-that-jazz

[Starwars]

I agree myself that the "Infinity Engine feel" can be a bit too limiting at times. But, that's the way it pitched it and there are people crying murder every time they stray from that even a little so...

 

Also, I wonder how "accurate" that video above still is. We know that they've toned down a lot of the animated elements (the moving grass for example), at least in the beta.

I'm definitely hoping there will be a lot of stuff like that to make the world feel vibrant though.

 

For what it's worth, at a face value, I think Dyrford feels pretty good for the small town it is at least. There is some movement among NPCs, but not too much, I think it feels pretty good for a small village. Hoping they'll do a lot more in the big city, more movement and such. But I guess we'll see.

[Dark_Ansem]

yeah I agree with you. 

Still, they need to evolve themselves, Infinity engine, despite how good it is, it's old. we have improved on many things and it shows its age. 

I mean, those same people that cry murder are the same that complain how the world is not interactive enough.

They need to understand that, while back then games had more heart, they did NOT forego the eyecandy. for the year of publication, the graphic effects were over-the-top (the day-night cycles, for example. Torment was ESPECIALLY focused on being gorgeous, as stated in the Torment Vision Statement document, google it if you haven't read it, it's wonderful). PoE should keep the same heart, but take advantage of the new technology. otherwise, it risks becoming a game like Inquisitor, an old-school new game which, since day one, lost the "school" and was considered just "old".

 

And the fact that they have toned down the animated elements is very bad. the world needs to feel alive, not like a 2d painting where 3d characters stroll.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Dark_Ansem

[Gairnulf]

It's teeming with insects, that's for sure

[Dark_Ansem]

It's teeming with insects, that's for sure

actual insects?

[Sheikh]

yeah I agree with you. 

Still, they need to evolve themselves, Infinity engine, despite how good it is, it's old. we have improved on many things and it shows its age. 

I mean, those same people that cry murder are the same that complain how the world is not interactive enough.

They need to understand that, while back then games had more heart, they did NOT forego the eyecandy. for the year of publication, the graphic effects were over-the-top (the day-night cycles, for example. Torment was ESPECIALLY focused on being gorgeous, as stated in the Torment Vision Statement document, google it if you haven't read it, it's wonderful). PoE should keep the same heart, but take advantage of the new technology. otherwise, it risks becoming a game like Inquisitor, an old-school new game which, since day one, lost the "school" and was considered just "old".

 

And the fact that they have toned down the animated elements is very bad. the world needs to feel alive, not like a 2d painting where 3d characters stroll.

I think for alot of immersion creating environment, you need to do a ton of extra work and perhaps the developers feel its not worth a slice of the pie of their budget and time?

[Dark_Ansem]

 

yeah I agree with you. 

Still, they need to evolve themselves, Infinity engine, despite how good it is, it's old. we have improved on many things and it shows its age. 

I mean, those same people that cry murder are the same that complain how the world is not interactive enough.

They need to understand that, while back then games had more heart, they did NOT forego the eyecandy. for the year of publication, the graphic effects were over-the-top (the day-night cycles, for example. Torment was ESPECIALLY focused on being gorgeous, as stated in the Torment Vision Statement document, google it if you haven't read it, it's wonderful). PoE should keep the same heart, but take advantage of the new technology. otherwise, it risks becoming a game like Inquisitor, an old-school new game which, since day one, lost the "school" and was considered just "old".

 

And the fact that they have toned down the animated elements is very bad. the world needs to feel alive, not like a 2d painting where 3d characters stroll.

I think for alot of immersion creating environment, you need to do a ton of extra work and perhaps the developers feel its not worth a slice of the pie of their budget and time?

 

 

well, their budget is *not* small. they've had much more than planned. and they have more control than others, no publisher at their heels that has funded them, considering the success of kickstarter.

Numenera is being delayed by 6 months minumum, and it's going to be amazing. Wait makes it all the sweeter.

 

Heck, if they were to do this, I'd love them to re-open paypal and extend the beta for those that REALLY want to participate in it.

not to mention, waiting could lead to newer engine, which will be amazing in terms not only of performance, but also of capabilities. it will be able to do several things the current version cannot do.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Dark_Ansem

[Sheikh]

 

 

yeah I agree with you. 

Still, they need to evolve themselves, Infinity engine, despite how good it is, it's old. we have improved on many things and it shows its age. 

I mean, those same people that cry murder are the same that complain how the world is not interactive enough.

They need to understand that, while back then games had more heart, they did NOT forego the eyecandy. for the year of publication, the graphic effects were over-the-top (the day-night cycles, for example. Torment was ESPECIALLY focused on being gorgeous, as stated in the Torment Vision Statement document, google it if you haven't read it, it's wonderful). PoE should keep the same heart, but take advantage of the new technology. otherwise, it risks becoming a game like Inquisitor, an old-school new game which, since day one, lost the "school" and was considered just "old".

 

And the fact that they have toned down the animated elements is very bad. the world needs to feel alive, not like a 2d painting where 3d characters stroll.

I think for alot of immersion creating environment, you need to do a ton of extra work and perhaps the developers feel its not worth a slice of the pie of their budget and time?

 

 

well, their budget is *not* small. they've had much more than planned. and they have more control than others, no publisher at their heels that has funded them, considering the success of kickstarter.

Numenera is being delayed by 6 months minumum, and it's going to be amazing. Wait makes it all the sweeter.

 

Heck, if they were to do this, I'd love them to re-open paypal and extend the beta for those that REALLY want to participate in it.

not to mention, waiting could lead to newer engine, which will be amazing in terms not only of performance, but also of capabilities. it will be able to do several things the current version cannot do.

 

Yeah I wouldnt mind waiting either, but perhaps not everyone is okay with it. The devs have to account for alot of stuff including time and money and 4m$ is not all that much to develop a game.

[Dark_Ansem]

That is a debatable point, but I am glad you agree with me on the waiting. I've been EA for several games now, been put into credits too, and I have to say it's a lot of fun.

[PrimeJunta]

Well, I mean in terms of gameplay, first and foremost: are NPCs reactive to the decisions of the player? do the party's action have an effect on the surroundings and, potentially, the entire game world?

Yes. The mechanisms are scripting (changes happen through quest branches) and reputation dynamics (changes happen based on your reputation with different factions). Agent AI is not reactive.

 

I also mean in terms of aesthetics: are sfxs placed with 3d emitters that make you feel birds singing, water flowing, bats chirping and flapping? in a haunted mansion, are there whispers that randomly jump in the location, giving a good scare to the party?

Haven't noticed. Kind of hard to pull this off in an isometric game I think, when you're viewing the thing from a bird's eye perspective.

 

Do we get more than a light-out at night, or it's possible to meet npcs who have night routines, night-only monsters, do we get pixies to sprout from bushes at night in a shower of sparks?

Haven't noticed anything like this in the beta. I believe this was mentioned as a "would like to implement if there's time" type of feature set.

 

Are there factions in this game that we can join, each one with its own complicated relationships towards each other and ranks?

I believe so.

 

Do monster attack the player together, or, say, a lion will target a deer first and the player later? in short, are there complex factional relationships?

That's not really a complex factional relationship; that's scripted AI behavior. I haven't noticed anything like this in the beta.

 

EDIT: I'd also like to see more than a standard "game over" when you lose an encounter. while some still require that, I'd like to see additional results for others, rather than death. like, imprisonment, or some sort of penalty like being stranded, or put into a dungeon from which escape. or failing to complete an encounter means that you awake, like, in an inn, and your enemy has succeeded, and the landscape of the game has changed, and you have to deal with it.

in short: no reload on defeat.

And a pony?

[Dark_Ansem]

Thanks for the answers, apparently scripting regulates a lot of things.

 

Isometric should not equal "bland", however. 

 

it's not about ponies, too, it's an effort to break out a standard scheme.

then again, not every battle would need this. every beast-like enemy wouldn't for example, as the only outcome is being devoured.

 

Others, however, might have some more "work".

[PrimeJunta]

Your last one was most definitely a pony. You would either have to script a "losing outcome" for every single battle in the game and account for the knock-on effects down the line, or create a dynamic world where the "losing outcomes" emerge systemically. The former would be a gigantic amount of scripting, the latter would be a whole different type of game.

 

And finally... yeah, I gotta be that guy. This game isn't about "breaking out of a standard scheme." It is about bringing back a long-neglected standard scheme. Many of the things you listed would be perfectly wortwhile enhancements to it and something that would be nice to have if budget and schedule permits. Some of them are fundamentally incompatible with what the game is trying to be.

 

As to the budget, 4M is not a lot. They have to make trade-offs. One of the trade-offs they've announced they're making very early on is that they want a broader range of different kinds of maps, monsters, weapons, spells, and attacks, even if it means that each monster, weapon, spell, or attack will only get a single animation, or that animations are reused between them.

Edited November 3, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Dark_Ansem]

If you had read closely, you'd notice that only important battles, not "EVERY single battle" would get that scripted outcome.

Besides, Numenera is already doing it, and they didn't get that much more than Pillars, in terms of funding. and they are using the same engine, or possibly 5, I am not sure.

And before anyone says "go and buy Numenera", I already did, since their paypal is still viable. I also want to support Pillars, tho.

 

The standard scheme is, in many ways, obsolete. Not because it's bad, broken or something, but because more discoveries have been made and more innovations have been introduced, some good, some bad. 

Bring back a long--neglected scheme? sure. but purged of its fault and updated wherever possible, viable and reasonable. Otherwise, we'd still be with 8-bit mechanics and graphics.

[PrimeJunta]

If you had read closely, you'd notice that only important battles, not "EVERY single battle" would get that scripted outcome.

Oh, you meant the standard "lose boss battle -> go to jail -> break out of jail/send party member to break you out of jail" scenario? Sure, there's room for that in P:E. It's not so much a feature as a trope and quest structure; the only twist would be that it's possible to avoid going to jail by winning the battle.

 

The trouble with that is that if it only happens in a few battles, the standard mode of play becomes to reload after you lose. I.e. only very few players would ever even see that branch.

 

Besides, Numenera is already doing it, and they didn't get that much more than Pillars, in terms of funding. and they are using the same engine, or possibly 5, I am not sure.

I believe they're using the P:E engine, yes.

 

Numenera has much, much less combat than P:E though, and their notion of "Crisis" is way cool and permits twists like this to happen. It also worked great for Planescape: Torment.

 

Thing is, in both of these games it only works because you, the protagonist, are a defined character -- The Nameless One in PS:T, The Last Cast-Off in T:ToN. In both cases you get a special ability that makes you deal with death differently. I don't think P:E wants to be that kind of game.

 

And before anyone says "go and buy Numenera", I already did, since their paypal is still viable. I also want to support Pillars, tho.

 

The standard scheme is, in many ways, obsolete. Not because it's bad, broken or something, but because more discoveries have been made and more innovations have been introduced, some good, some bad. 

Bring back a long--neglected scheme? sure. but purged of its fault and updated wherever possible, viable and reasonable. Otherwise, we'd still be with 8-bit mechanics and graphics.

I agree entirely.

 

Where I (possibly) disagree is what constitues "purging of faults and updating" and what constitutes "doing something altogether different." A lot of the things you listed are cool but are not and should not be high priorities for a game like P:E, or indeed conflict with what it is trying to be.

[Dark_Ansem]

No, no, not even always nor go to jail mechanic. 

but still, you got the proper idea: scripted. non.standard and alternative. Think, for example, X-ATM092 battle from FFVIII, where the enemy was too powerful and you had to flee from it. alternatives to fighting, if possible, reasonable and feasible.

 

I don't remember it existing in PST. you simply returned to the nearest safe place, but that was it. the only alternative was the tomb of the nameless one, where dying was necessary..

 

Glad that you agree but most of those are just my suggestions, the only things I really believe are at fault are the lack of interactivity of the world, I would love, for example, to see the return of the "points of interests", clickable parts of the environment which prompt a description

[PrimeJunta]

Points of interest would be cool. I'd much rather take them than, say, animated vegetation.

 

There are going to be alternatives to fighting; in fact there are several examples in the BB. Alternatives to winning once you commit to a fight, I'm not so sure about.

 

As I said I think "losing scenarios" would be a bit wasted on a game like P:E where the default behavior is to reload if you lose a game. There is Trial of Iron of course where they would make more sense. I wouldn't object to adding a couple, but I'd rather they spent most of that effort on reactivity that follows from choices of what you attempt rather than how well you succeed.

 

As to PS:T, there was a quite a bit you missed if you didn't let yourself die every now and then.

[Dark_Ansem]

I did a good playthrough limiting the number of Shadows

 

well, but for example, if an Arena mode is placed, rather than reload you could just return to the lobby and start again (kinda like Dragon Age provings)

[Lephys]

It would be pretty cool if there was an actual continuing branch for losing (not just an alternative (okay then, let's get out of jail) a given fight. Maybe your party gets tortured or something, which causes someone to snap, and actually affects their personality/character development for the remainder of the narrative. Maybe your stronghold suffers while you're captive?

 

BUT, that all comes down to game scope. Every time you allow for two completely separate continuities to a story, you've got to go big or go home. 'Cause, if one's the "Oh, you're not really supposed to do this" option, and the other's fully fleshed out, then what's the point?

 

And yeah, if the losing outcome is just going to be a long, entertaining "let's get back on the exact same track we would've been on had we WON that fight," then there's not much point in it. That's an if, though.