More like BG2 please

[Metabot]

Some elements that BG2 didn't have were somewhat better then the alternative.

 

Stealth is different with circles instead of just eyeballing it yourself from play/practice. The circles are not something i'm fond of.

 

Camp supplies - why do I care, the story, the combat and exploration are great gameplay, Forced camp supplies feels tedious.

 

Food - Character goes to the toilet when I'm not playing, he can eat offscreen too.

 

Grappling ropes - Tedious, getting to a tamogochi in style. Having the skills to cross without penalties is Roleplay enough, no need to go into the fibres of the rope I used.

 

The User interface, the little combat overhead display is distracting and useless. The location of my player characters portait and health bar is as far away as you can possible make it from my character.  The Spellbook is hidden behind a bunch of mouseclicks as far away from the combat as it can get as well.

 

I still love the game, because it has plenty of elements that do match BG2 and other older games, these are things that I believe don't need to be in the game, or should be changed to be fun instead of tedious.

 

Lol people already forget the point of the camp supplies...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Why does it increase physical strength?

Because in the PoE universe, Might affects all damage.

 

Why the hell would there be an attribute that increases physical strength and spell damage rolled into one?

Might effects the magnitude of attacks and buffs. It does this because the designers wanted to avoid having any stat being an obvious dump for a class(not to be confused with build). If you want to play a skinny nerd, you trade in raw damage for increased AoE and duration of spells. This means a Wizard will do less damage with "Magic Missile", but "Web" will affect a larger area and last longer.

[Seari]

Why the hell would there be an attribute that increases physical strength and spell damage rolled into one?

Might effects the magnitude of attacks and buffs. It does this because the designers wanted to avoid having any stat being an obvious dump for a class(not to be confused with build). If you want to play a skinny nerd, you trade in raw damage for increased AoE and duration of spells. This means a Wizard will do less damage with "Magic Missile", but "Web" will affect a larger area and last longer.

 

So instead of making different stats obvious dumps for different classes, they made it so Might will be basically maxed by every class?

I don't know, these attributes just feel wrong to me. Also they feel really bland.

 

edit: Why the hells would I have to be in a position where I have to trade raw power for duration/AoE. Why would there be a link between muscle and spell damage. Basically because I don't want to create a ripped wizard, I have to forfeit spell damage, seems to me this attribute system is broken.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Seari

[Mayama]

I hate Sawyer's obsession with balance, this is a single player game and not an mmo. The overpowered items, class combinations and spells are what made it fun. I mean balance is all well and good, untill gameplay suffers because of it.

 

So you think:

 

- offscreen web, offscreen cloud kill, offscreen fireball fireball fireball

- enter room of a deadly mage, leave room, wait out his spells, kill him

- getting tons of movement speed / actions by stacking haste spells 

- getting 25 charisma with rod of terror + ring of charisma

- abusing double regen effect while hasted

- using the guard button to shot through doors

- blocking doors with eye of the wizard

 

was fun?

Edited August 24, 2014 by Mayama

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So instead of making different stats obvious dumps for different classes, they made it so Might will be basically maxed by every class?

Instead of making a system where certain stats can be dumped with no real penalty, they made a system where every stat is of use to every class. If you want to build a Barbarian that hits like a truck, you pump Might. Or you could boost Accuracy(Dexterity), Health and Stamina(Constitution), or AoE of Carnage and length of Rage(Intellect). Resolve and Perception are currently sub-optimal, but the devs acknowledged this before the release of the beta(and stated the desire to adjust it) and I think that with a more in depth explanation of Interrupt they may start seeing more use.

 

I don't know, these attributes just feel wrong to me. Also they feel really bland.

*shrug*

 

I don't see them as any more bland than IE attributes.

[Seari]

 

I hate Sawyer's obsession with balance, this is a single player game and not an mmo. The overpowered items, class combinations and spells are what made it fun. I mean balance is all well and good, untill gameplay suffers because of it.

 

So you think:

 

- offscreen web, offscreen cloud kill, offscreen fireball fireball fireball

- enter room of a deadly mage, leave room, wait out his spells, kill him

- getting tons of movement speed / actions by stacking haste spells 

- getting 25 charisma with rod of terror + ring of charisma

- abusing double regen effect while hasted

- using the guard button to shot through doors

- blocking doors with eye of the wizard

 

was fun?

 

If you're a filthy cheater, that can't play a game without resorting to exploits.

[Mayama]

 

 

I hate Sawyer's obsession with balance, this is a single player game and not an mmo. The overpowered items, class combinations and spells are what made it fun. I mean balance is all well and good, untill gameplay suffers because of it.

 

So you think:

 

- offscreen web, offscreen cloud kill, offscreen fireball fireball fireball

- enter room of a deadly mage, leave room, wait out his spells, kill him

- getting tons of movement speed / actions by stacking haste spells 

- getting 25 charisma with rod of terror + ring of charisma

- abusing double regen effect while hasted

- using the guard button to shot through doors

- blocking doors with eye of the wizard

 

was fun?

 

If you're a filthy cheater, that can't play a game without resorting to exploits.

 

 

Exploit? You will most likley do most of those things in a play through unintentionaly anyway.

[Seari]

 

So instead of making different stats obvious dumps for different classes, they made it so Might will be basically maxed by every class?

Instead of making a system where certain stats can be dumped with no real penalty, they made a system where every stat is of use to every class. If you want to build a Barbarian that hits like a truck, you pump Might. Or you could boost Accuracy(Dexterity), Health and Stamina(Constitution), or AoE of Carnage and length of Rage(Intellect). Resolve and Perception are currently sub-optimal, but the devs acknowledged this before the release of the beta(and stated the desire to adjust it) and I think that with a more in depth explanation of Interrupt they may start seeing more use.

 

I don't know, these attributes just feel wrong to me. Also they feel really bland.

*shrug*

 

I don't see them as any more bland than IE attributes.

 

With the IE attributes I can at least make a character I want to roleplay without gimping him. I basically have to choose between spell damage or playing a schwarzenegger wizard.

 

Also doesn't an attribute that increases damage of both melee and spells make spellblades, clerics and such too strong?

[Namutree]

 

Also doesn't an attribute that increases damage of both melee and spells make spellblades, clerics and such too strong?

 

It does make MIG too appealing for them. That is why I have suggested on other threads to make RES handle healing instead of MIG.

 

When I say appealing I don't mean strong. Only that too many builds need MIG.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Namutree

[Mayama]

With the IE attributes I can at least make a character I want to roleplay without gimping him. I basically have to choose between spell damage or playing a schwarzenegger wizard.

 

 

Also doesn't an attribute that increases damage of both melee and spells make spellblades, clerics and such too strong?

 

 

Well making mage-fighters completly OP would be "more like bg2".

Edited August 24, 2014 by Mayama

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

With the IE attributes I can at least make a character I want to roleplay without gimping him.

Good news, you can do that in PoE too. You can lose out on +20% damage in echange for a large boost to AoE and Duration. Use AoE disabling spells and laugh as the martial characters kill off foes.

 

I basically have to choose between spell damage or playing a schwarzenegger wizard.

There are quite a lot more choices than that, but if you want a Wizard who deals massive raw damage, you're going to boost Might. Want a Wizard whose spells are large and last a long time, pump Intellect.

 

Also doesn't an attribute that increases damage of both melee and spells make spellblades, clerics and such too strong?

No, as the character has to trade off Accuracy, AoE and Duration, Health and Stamina, and Interrupt to get the damage boost.

[Stun]

Instead of making a system where certain stats can be dumped with no real penalty, they made a system where every stat is of use to every class.

Actually, they made a system where every stat can be dumped with no penalty at all. No, worse than that. They made a system where you can dump every stat to 3 and still receive bonuses. Dumping your Barbarian's Might to 3 will cause him to receive a +10% boost to damage and healing. Same goes with the functions of every stat.

 

It's the casual gamer's dream system. Makes class building idiot proof.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Stun

[Namutree]

 

Instead of making a system where certain stats can be dumped with no real penalty, they made a system where every stat is of use to every class.

Actually, they made a system where every stat can be dumped with no penalty at all. No, worse than that. They made a system where you can dump every stat to 3 and still receive bonuses. Dumping your Barbarian's Might to 3 will cause him to receive a +10% boost to damage and healing. Same goes with the functions of every stat.

 

It's the casual gamer's dream system. Makes class building idiot proof.

 

Yeah, as we've already discussed on other threads; it would be much better if attributes didn't start off as a bonus, but instead started as penalties while doubling what an individual stat point gives you.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Namutree

[Stun]

 

I hate Sawyer's obsession with balance, this is a single player game and not an mmo. The overpowered items, class combinations and spells are what made it fun. I mean balance is all well and good, untill gameplay suffers because of it.

 

So you think:

 

- offscreen web, offscreen cloud kill, offscreen fireball fireball fireball

- enter room of a deadly mage, leave room, wait out his spells, kill him

- getting tons of movement speed / actions by stacking haste spells 

- getting 25 charisma with rod of terror + ring of charisma

- abusing double regen effect while hasted

- using the guard button to shot through doors

- blocking doors with eye of the wizard

 

was fun?

 

Oh what a great argument. Lets talk about exploits and confirmed bugs only. Because that's all BG2 was about, after all.

 

In PoE, if you equip all of your characters with rifles, you can break the demo, as there isn't a single encounter that can't be steamrolled effortlessly by doing so. Therefore, PoE sucks. </mayama logic>.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Stun

[Mayama]

 

Instead of making a system where certain stats can be dumped with no real penalty, they made a system where every stat is of use to every class.

Actually, they made a system where every stat can be dumped with no penalty at all. No, worse than that. They made a system where you can dump every stat to 3 and still receive bonuses. Dumping your Barbarian's Might to 3 will cause him to receive a +10% boost to damage and healing. Same goes with the functions of every stat.

 

It's the casual gamer's dream system. Makes class building idiot proof.

 

 

 

 

It doesnt make a difference if you have a average like 10 and substracting/adding bonuses to it and starting with 3 and only add bonuses to it. Your doom prophet like behavior because something needs number tweaking is absolutly ridiculous.

[Stun]

Yeah, as we've already discussed on other threads; it would be much better if attributes didn't start off as a bonus, but instead started as penalties while doubling what an individual stat point gives you.

But.... But.... No bad builds!

 

 

It doesnt make a difference if you have a average like 10 and substracting/adding bonuses to it and starting with 3 and only add bonuses to it.

I would never advocate such a pointless, banal system

 

How about we make 10 the standard, and then anything less incurs increasing penalties, while anything more grants increasing bonuses? You'd begin seeing massive differences then. As such a system would actually have a meaningful effect on builds.

 

Your doom prophet like behavior because something needs number tweaking is absolutly ridiculous

lol Number tweaking.

 

It would constitute a philosophy change. As crap builds would become possible.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Stun

[Mayama]

Oh what a great argument. Lets talk about exploits only. Because that's all BG2 was about, after all.

 

In PoE, if you equip all of your characters with rifles, you can break the demo, as there isn't a single encounter that can't be steamrolled effortlessly by doing so. Therefore, PoE's system sucks.

 

 

Ok here we go in BG2 the combat was completly broken, here is an example that doesnt use any exploit only normal use of abilites:

 

 

Make a mage/fighter hyprid, cast protection from elements + protection from fire on him, also haste him and equip a ring of free action. 

Now run into a group of enemies and spam fireballs or any other fire spell.

 

That gives you a durable fighter that is immun to fire, gets healed by fire damage because your fire resistance is over 100%, does massive aoe fire damage, is hasted, cant get CC'd and if the fire damage is over time he gets healed for twice the damage he would get because haste doubles regeneration. All those spells are standard, a ring of free action is easy to get.

[Namutree]

 

- getting tons of movement speed / actions by stacking haste spells 

- getting 25 charisma with rod of terror + ring of charisma

- abusing double regen effect while hasted

- using the guard button to shot through doors

- blocking doors with eye of the wizard

 

was fun?

 

Oh what a great argument. Lets talk about exploits only. Because that's all BG2 was about, after all.

 

In PoE, if you equip all of your characters with rifles, you can break the demo, as there isn't a single encounter that can't be steamrolled effortlessly by doing so. Therefore, PoE sucks. </mayama logic>.

 

For anyone who think how terrible it was that the IE games were exploitable; I have some bad news for you:

 

Poe will be exploitable too! I can with nearly 100% certainty assure you there will be exploit galore in poe.

Every rpg with any depth I have ever seen or played has exploits. All of them.

 

Even paper mario 2 has them.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Namutree

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

Instead of making a system where certain stats can be dumped with no real penalty, they made a system where every stat is of use to every class.

Actually, they made a system where every stat can be dumped with no penalty at all. No, worse than that. They made a system where you can dump every stat to 3 and still receive bonuses. Dumping your Barbarian's Might to 3 will cause him to receive a +10% boost to damage and healing. Same goes with the functions of every stat.

 

It's the casual gamer's dream system. Makes class building idiot proof.

 

 

 

It doesnt make a difference if you have a average like 10 and substracting/adding bonuses to it and starting with 3 and only add bonuses to it. Your doom prophet like behavior because something needs number tweaking is absolutly ridiculous.

 

Its simply aesthetic. If you changed every value to where it is currently at a stat of 10-11, and applied negative % of the same magnitude for every point below 10-11, you would have the same situation in function we do now.

[Mayama]

 

Yeah, as we've already discussed on other threads; it would be much better if attributes didn't start off as a bonus, but instead started as penalties while doubling what an individual stat point gives you.

But.... But.... No bad builds!

 

Dont you get it IT DOESNT MAKE A DIFFERENCE where you put the average. If you start with 3 and give +5% good looks for every point after that or if you start with 10 and substract 5% if its lower or add +5% if its higher doesnt make a freaking difference.

[Stun]

 

 

Yeah, as we've already discussed on other threads; it would be much better if attributes didn't start off as a bonus, but instead started as penalties while doubling what an individual stat point gives you.

But.... But.... No bad builds!

 

Dont you get it IT DOESNT MAKE A DIFFERENCE where you put the average. If you start with 3 and give +5% good looks for every point after that or if you start with 10 and substract 5% if its lower or add +5% if its higher doesnt make a freaking difference.

 

Bullsh*t.

 

If we had a system like the one Namutree suggested (where 18 = 100% increase in the benefit and 3 = 100% penalty), and we made a rogue with 3 con and 3 might, it would be a bad build. Or more relevantly, it would be just as bad a build as a fighter in BG2 who dumped his Con and Strength all the way.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Stun

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Bullsh*t.

 

If we had a system like the one Namutree suggested (where 18 = 100% increase in the benefit and 3 = 100% penalty), and we made a rogue with 3 con and 3 might, it would be a bad build. Or more relevantly, it would be just as bad a build as a fighter in BG2 who dumped his Con and Strength all the way.

So do you dislike the presentation as all bonuses, the magnitude of each point spent, or both?

 

I'd agree that magnitude should be increased, but have no feelings about the presentation as I initially pump attributes to 10 anyways.

[Mayama]

 

 

 

Yeah, as we've already discussed on other threads; it would be much better if attributes didn't start off as a bonus, but instead started as penalties while doubling what an individual stat point gives you.

But.... But.... No bad builds!

 

Dont you get it IT DOESNT MAKE A DIFFERENCE where you put the average. If you start with 3 and give +5% good looks for every point after that or if you start with 10 and substract 5% if its lower or add +5% if its higher doesnt make a freaking difference.

 

Bullsh*t.

 

If we had a system like the one Namutree suggested (where 18 = 100% increase in the benefit and 3 = 100% penalty), and we made a rogue with 3 con and 3 might, it would be a bad build. Or more relevantly, it would be just as bad a build as a fighter in BG2 who dumped his Con and Strength all the way.

 

 

 

I dont get why some people need to spam every thread with negativity instead of posting something like "I think the attribute bonuses need tweaking" in one thread that is actually about that topic. All that fuss about a minor problem.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Mayama

[Namutree]

Bullsh*t.

 

If we had a system like the one Namutree suggested (where 18 = 100% increase in the benefit and 3 = 100% penalty), and we made a rogue with 3 con and 3 might, it would be a bad build. Or more relevantly, it would be just as bad a build as a fighter in BG2 who dumped his Con and Strength all the way.

 

I'm not so sure about that. Which stat did this build put it's points into instead of MIG and CON?

Edited August 24, 2014 by Namutree

[jyw]

I'm just gonna post a quote from codex, that perfectly describes my feelings with the beta at the moment.

 

 

I dislike the system and I think it will be a major turn-off to those expecting a D&D-like experience, but I think it can be fixed to the point where it doesn't suck as much as does right now. Because right now, it sucks major balls.

 

The reason why the system feels so much different than in IE games? It doesn't actually describe your character - at all. It merely allows you to make different mechanical variations which are in theory all balanced (my spells do less damage, but have a larger radius, etc). In practice, it can be min/maxed just as much as D&D can, but with an added level of blandness which comes from all stats being useful to all characters. Balance should not be the ultimate goal in RPGs; fun should take precedence.

 

 

I think the bolded part is especially important and it's what made the IE games what they are.

 

I hate Sawyer's obsession with balance, this is a single player game and not an mmo. The overpowered items, class combinations and spells are what made it fun. I mean balance is all well and good, untill gameplay suffers because of it.

 

This is a roleplaying game, and right now the attributes being what they are, I can't even make a proper character from a roleplaying perspective. How the hell do I make a physically weak but intelligent wizard? Right now it's not possible, because the current attribute system just doesn't work at all.

 

I don't think every class should be able to do everything, this is a party based game after all. Why make a fighter have the same number of active abilities/spells as a wizard, when you're controlling them both. This isn't WoW, classes don't need to do every role, each class should have a role in a party, they should be balanced with a party in mind and not how they perfom by themselves.

Basically this. I'm not seeing why every stat should be viable for every class. It kinda feels like it's taking the DnD 4E way of balancing, which is a huge turnoff for me.