"But it was made for us."

[Mihura]

@mihura I'm not sure the basis of your convictions are wether there from a gendrification or sexist or if it's an immersion thing. But that little picture next to your name is basically doing the same thing.

 

Heavy use of make up, lips pursed ready for a kiss like a helpless college freshmen, very high and defined cheek bones. That picture your using is basically the same thing as putting little bumps on the models of women wearing armor.

 

Im going to call the goose and gander rule here.

 

That picture is from the Wikipedia, I was showing the armor. I played a bosmer actually in Skyrim.

 

Either way I never said it was sexist. Actually to be sexist it would need to treat all genders included on game, differently. If they do a codpiece thing I am more than fine with it, just do not like gender indicators only on one of the sides. 

 

I do not understand why they are "realistic" on the plate armor and not on this. I also love the barbarian female armor on Diablo 3, so no I am not against unrealistic armor.

I just hate the argument for having it "if females has no boobs on armor how do I know it is a female", it implies that male is the default and females have to have something to identify them. Even when it makes no sense with the other armors. Personally I dislike boob armor but if they are for everyone and all gender get the same degree of it, I would be more fine with it.

 

Also I am not against boob armor if they give you the option to choose to have it or not, like different variants, that way I can just ignore it in game. I do not like to be forced to use it that is all.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Mihura

[ravenshrike]

surprising amount of traction among reasonable people all across the political spectrum despite the fact that its pejorative connotation - and indeed, its use in serious American political discourse at all - is the brainchild of the American Right, and as such should be looked upon with the suspicion reserved for any phrase with an implicit agenda behind it. But that linguistic ship has sailed.

 

Horse****. The current froufrara over the Hugo awards at Worldcon and the bat**** response from the SJW contingent shows that political correctness is alive and kicking. 

[rjshae]

 

 but the armour IS functional ridiculous and it is ridiculous to accommodate a female figure.  is insulting that we would give scale a pass where plate were subject of derision.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Unless the boobscale is more exaggerated than I think it is, not having seen the image in question, it wouldn't introduce a structural defect to the scale. Just be slightly more complicated to construct. Whereas the boobplate would have seriously impacted the structural integrity of the armor.

 

But would it really? Or is this just another frequently repeated internet exaggeration? If what you say is true, then prove it.

 

I'm skeptical; there's a much more dangerous weakness at the joints, which require sharply curved pieces with small joints. Some plate armor was made for nobility with significant belly bulges, which has a far greater surface area and curvature to protect. How is that any different? No, I think the word 'seriously' is well off here. At best it's 'very slightly'.

[neo6874]

 

 but the armour IS functional ridiculous and it is ridiculous to accommodate a female figure.  is insulting that we would give scale a pass where plate were subject of derision.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Unless the boobscale is more exaggerated than I think it is, not having seen the image in question, it wouldn't introduce a structural defect to the scale. Just be slightly more complicated to construct. Whereas the boobplate would have seriously impacted the structural integrity of the armor.

 

 

 

Right now, it looks like a screen-print of scales on a "baby-doll" t-shirt.  So they're a bit distorted and exaggerated looking.

[Lephys]

I love how the whole "then dudes need giant codpieces!" thing always comes up in this. The armor is being (albeit, historically inaccurately) custom-fitted to whatever torso is wearing it, as it is torso armor. Thus, a difference in the torso registers. The male armors are slightly more male-torso shaped, overall (they're not just perfectly identical to the female ones, but without boob-trusions -- they're completely different base character models with armor then applied atop).

 

So, while I'm totally not against codpieces on armor, that isn't somehow mandated by the Fairness Fairy purely because females have a differently shaped torso. For that to somehow be even, female armor would all have to have extra, separate boob pieces that went on in addition to the regular torso armor.

 

This really isn't rocket science. It's a slight abstraction. There's a reason for it. It's not hurting anybody.

 

Also, Amentep pointed out something very useful: The choice to have the (subtle) visual distinction of torso armor shape to "see" which character that is remains far less impractical than having your character run around "without a helmet," just so you can see their spiffy head and hair. "Yeah, I know it protects my head... it's still there, it's just invisible. Why? For no functional reason at all, other than that the player wants to see under it, ^_^"

 

Let's commence the complaint caravan regarding that horrible injustice, shall we?

 

That or the fact that you can make your whole party neon yellow (dyed cloth options), and still they can sneak right on past all the enemies in the game. Take your pick.

[Mihura]

In the end I just want the freedom to create a character that fits my vision of a warrior in the world. I want to have options. Is that so bad? 

It not even about realism, i mean magic and all that, is more about immersion, that is why a codpiece would be the equivalent to boob armor. It is not really realistic if you exaggerated the form but at least that way everyone is equal. I would like no boob or codpeace armor at all but I doubt at this point they will change that. Ah well. 

[Gromnir]

this is getting silly... or sillier. a developer posts in a different thread and folks' brains turn off? the purpose o' b00b armour is make males and females instantly distinguishable? 

 

...

 

why?

 

2 males wearing same armour is likely still gonna be distinguishable. for example, they will have different kits/gear. if bob is wielding a sword and phil has an axe, we bet we can tell apart... even just at a glance. chances are bob and phil is gonna have any number o' different pieces o' equipment to differentiate. heck, we played bgee a couple weeks ago. we recall that we could put different circles under each member o' our party. am certain that obsidian can come up with something similar... in fact, we hope they already has. and guess what? it is possible that 2 MALE characters with same/similar gear will look same/similar. duh. is there some special reason for making women distinguishable? is ok for bob to resemble phil, but lord forebear if bob resembles mary when both is wearing heavy metal armour. 

 

*shakes head sadly*

 

and all o' this still ignores that plate were changed 'cause o' ridiculousness/sexism/etc. the differentiation attribute o' b00b plate is no different than b00b scale, and the ridiculousness is same... but scale is different.

 

amentep wants internal consistency. we agree. some consistency regarding this issue would be appreciated.  developers and community ain't being consistent. oh, sure, as a detail-oriented, borderline ocd sufferer, this kinda willful lack o' rationality sets our teeth on edge.  but am honestly befuddled as to why so many ain't even recognizing the inconsistency.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lephys]

I dunno. Scientists have studied animal physiology for a while now, and wondered why human females even have boobs, since most animals don't really (nothing that doesn't basically just look like pectoral muscles or otherwise male chests). They decided that, amongst humans, they provide the intuitive visual distinction between males and females of the species, since we, unlike many other animals, don't rely on scent/pheromones and such to discern gender.

 

So, *shrug*

[Gromnir]

I dunno. Scientists have studied animal physiology for a while now, and wondered why human females even have boobs, since most animals don't really (nothing that doesn't basically just look like pectoral muscles or otherwise male chests). They decided that, amongst humans, they provide the intuitive visual distinction between males and females of the species, since we, unlike many other animals, don't rely on scent/pheromones and such to discern gender.

 

So, *shrug*

...

 

so, lephys needs b00bs to help him avoid initiating inappropriate mating rituals with game avatars of the wrong gender?

 

...

 

am certain that all made more sense before you posted it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lephys]

so, lephys needs b00bs to help him avoid initiating inappropriate mating rituals with game avatars of the wrong gender?

 

...

 

am certain that all made more sense before you posted it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I'll respond with an equally ridiculous question:

 

I suppose Gromnir doesn't rely upon his sense of sight to discern gender in any capacity?

 

I'm certain it still makes the same amount of sense, no matter how much time has passed or what events have transpired.

[Fatback]

I'll be honest I've seen some dudes from behind with long hair that have narrow shoulders and are small in the leg and said excuse me ma'am. Was very embarrassed I wish dudes had tails like pea****s.

 

Edite Lola pea****s is censored

Edited May 2, 2014 by Fatback

[Mihura]

I dunno. Scientists have studied animal physiology for a while now, and wondered why human females even have boobs, since most animals don't really (nothing that doesn't basically just look like pectoral muscles or otherwise male chests). They decided that, amongst humans, they provide the intuitive visual distinction between males and females of the species, since we, unlike many other animals, don't rely on scent/pheromones and such to discern gender.

 

So, *shrug*

 

No, that is not an explanation actually. There are theories like people have sex face to faces and things like that but no prove. And you can be gender-fluid and trans, so that makes no sense. And we are affect by scent and pheromones actually. 

 

Let us not go there, since "realism" is out of question so is "science". 

 

Although I do not agree with what the dev said I really tried of repeating the same thing countless times in a lot of places, and why this is important to some people. I would like to have a more immersive armor but there is so many times a person can take the same thing over and over.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Mihura

[Lephys]

Obviously, in PoE, people will just intuit each other's gender via soul detection. Which, actually, could get pretty crazy, if a guy's soul was reborn into a female body, or vice versa. So, hmm... maybe physiology really won't be helpful.

 

[Ffordesoon]

 

 

surprising amount of traction among reasonable people all across the political spectrum despite the fact that its pejorative connotation - and indeed, its use in serious American political discourse at all - is the brainchild of the American Right, and as such should be looked upon with the suspicion reserved for any phrase with an implicit agenda behind it. But that linguistic ship has sailed.

 

Horse****. The current froufrara over the Hugo awards at Worldcon and the bat**** response from the SJW contingent shows that political correctness is alive and kicking.

Link?

[Lephys]

No, that is not an explanation actually. There are theories like people have sex face to faces and things like that but no prove. And you can be gender-fluid and trans, so that makes no sense. And we are affect by scent and pheromones actually.

Actually, it is an explanation. It's not really a theory, since nature didn't anthropomorphically sit down and think "Hmmm... how will I make human females visually distinct? I know! PROTRUSIVE BOSOMS!" That's not how nature works. At some point in the evolution of humans, some females had absolutely no gene variance for protrusive bosoms, and some did. The ones that did were easily spotted and recognized by males, and oodles of extremely subtle factors later, the others' genetic line died off, thus the genes that were passed on included bosoms. If males had been able to detect females from a mile away via scent (as many animals pretty much can -- although the "mile" might be exaggerated, but I really don't know with any certainty that it isn't), then that visual distinction wouldn't have mattered much at all, and those of us around today would probably be different.

 

Thus, why human females (as a gender of an animal species, in general, not "every single human female is a clone and there's no genetic variance within the species/gender") have external mammaries (as opposed to not-having them because they were useless and those who had them all dying off, etc.), is because of visual gender distinction.

 

Also, I didn't say we weren't affected by pheromones, so you're not correcting me on anything. I said we don't use pheromones to discern each other's gender.

 

And I'd say this is all pretty pertinent, since the usage of torso physiology is being questioned as some preposterous means by which to visually discern the gender of a simulated, virtual human being, when that's literally been a main function of the female torso's physiology since humans have even existed.

 

Although I do not agree with what the dev said I really tried of repeating the same thing countless times in a lot of places, and why this is important to some people. I would like to have a more immersive armor but there is so many times a person can take the same thing over and over.

I really don't mean this in a hostile fashion, but if you're tired of seeing people keep talking about something you're sick of, maybe just cease reading threads like this one, instead of simply expecting everyone else to just also be sick of the same things you're sick of, and never talk about them in discussions specifically centered around that topic.

 

I'm sick of people driving terribly, every day, but I just try to stay off the roads and out of traffic as much as possible. I don't just sit around waiting for people to drive better.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Lephys

[Nonek]

Wear armour while swimming, especially heavy suits of chain and plate, and ones character is bound to be immersed. Ha.

 

But in all seriousness I find Mr Fatback's point to be a valid one, it is usually the finer skeleton and long hair that identify a member of the female gender for oneself, and I have made the same mistake as that gentleman. Considering that the model we saw of the scale byrnie clad young lady is similarly of female proportions I personally see no need for the emphasised bust. I would ideally like it to be scaled downa little but it is not a matter of utmost import, simply a little grumble with the game, like my reservations with the Rogue's nomenclature or the stash.

 

One will always have a few differences between the designers vision and the audiences expectations, however I do not think this one is too egregious.

 

Edit: What does gender fluid mean, have functioning artificial wombs and testes been created and I didn't hear of it?

Edited May 2, 2014 by Nonek

[Gromnir]

 

so, lephys needs b00bs to help him avoid initiating inappropriate mating rituals with game avatars of the wrong gender?

 

...

 

am certain that all made more sense before you posted it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I'll respond with an equally ridiculous question:

 

I suppose Gromnir doesn't rely upon his sense of sight to discern gender in any capacity?

 

I'm certain it still makes the same amount of sense, no matter how much time has passed or what events have transpired.

 

have already answered this query multiple times-- we dont expect to be able to distinguish male from female genders when certain garb is worn. duh. nasa space suit, hazmat protection, old-timey diving gear, gorilla costumes, etc. 

 

am seriously not seeing what is causing the brain numb with this issue.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lephys]

And I've already pointed out multiple times that I don't expect you to expect to discern them. I don't understand why you expect so hard to specifically not be able to tell the difference between characters you're controlling.

 

I mean, at best, as with almost anything else of this nature (some human desire versus realism) -- invisible helmets, etc. -- I could see wanting it to be an option. But, I don't understand what's causing "the brain numb" regarding people being okay with being able to visually discern the difference.

 

Do you expect to be able to tell the difference between a greatsword and an estoc? Or a sword and a dagger? 'Cause they've made it clear with that that they've exaggerated thing so as to make them visually dinstinguishable from one another. Does that also not matter? Same principle.

[Mihura]

I came here to read some news about PoE and I happen to see the topic about this, since I read before that the armors were gonna to be more "realistic" and they even change their stance because the community like that more, you could say I was happy at the time. I though this topic as close to them. Well it turn out it that was not really true.

 

So I am not gonna to wast more time here really, I already said I did not like the armor in the News Section. If people want to find reasons to have that type of armor sure go head.

 

Wear armour while swimming, especially heavy suits of chain and plate, and ones character is bound to be immersed. Ha.

 

But in all seriousness I find Mr Fatback's point to be a valid one, it is usually the finer skeleton and long hair that identify a member of the female gender for oneself, and I have made the same mistake as that gentleman. Considering that the model we saw of the scale byrnie clad young lady is similarly of female proportions I personally see no need for the emphasised bust. I would ideally like it to be scaled downa little but it is not a matter of utmost import, simply a little grumble with the game, like my reservations with the Rogue's nomenclature or the stash.

 

One will always have a few differences between the designers vision and the audiences expectations, however I do not think this one is too egregious.

 

Edit: What does gender fluid mean, have functioning artificial wombs and testes been created and I didn't hear of it?

 

Good luck with you life. The stupidity is to damn high here. 

[Nonek]

A little hostile isn't it Ms Mihura, one was merely asking a question.

 

Edit: The forums seem to becoming rather ill mannered of late, full of too much outrage and rudeness. Can't we all just get along?

Edited May 2, 2014 by Nonek

[Lephys]

Edit: The forums seem to becoming rather ill mannered of late, full of too much outrage and rudeness. Can't we all just get along?

Agreed. Someone says "he bumped into me and didn't apologize. I don't think that's right. HE SHOULD DIE!"

 

And you respond with "Whoa whoa, yeah, he probably should apologize to you, you're right. But, I dunno if his not-doing that warrants death", and somehow, the hostility just gets re-directed at you. As if simply letting it die down like a fire would somehow harm the discussion. 8P

[Gromnir]

And I've already pointed out multiple times that I don't expect you to expect to discern them. I don't understand why you expect so hard to specifically not be able to tell the difference between characters you're controlling.

 

I mean, at best, as with almost anything else of this nature (some human desire versus realism) -- invisible helmets, etc. -- I could see wanting it to be an option. But, I don't understand what's causing "the brain numb" regarding people being okay with being able to visually discern the difference.

 

Do you expect to be able to tell the difference between a greatsword and an estoc? Or a sword and a dagger? 'Cause they've made it clear with that that they've exaggerated thing so as to make them visually dinstinguishable from one another. Does that also not matter? Same principle.

is like you don't listen or read at all... go up and read our Many posts... including the ones you misquoted. 

 

b00b plate = bad. b00b scale = good. throw in the obviousness that the expectations and differentiation arguments don't apply to Men wearing same armour, and the whole freaking house o' card falls.  you pulled out a ridiculous pheromone argument that could only have impact if you were hopeful to be choosing a mate from your controlled party members... whilst in combat. fine. we played along, but this is... stoopid.

 

you got... nothing. really.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lephys]

Whatever you say, Gromnir. Whatever you say...

[Fatback]

I think liquid gender is like the bad guy from terminater 2 were she could mold herself into anything. I think I see an interesting adult spoof movie in there I should call vivid.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I dunno. Scientists have studied animal physiology for a while now,

 

There we have it. Science has now been brought into the debate. Only someone like Lephys could bring in science and animals into a boob armour discussion.