Stamina Regeneration POLL (Merge?)

[Abel]

^ Dude... you do know how Health and Stamina work, right? The "regeneration" of stamina is just you no longer being about to pass out because you're no longer exerting yourself (because combat is over). It's not the sealing up of wounds and healing of your tissue and organs. If you're down to 10/100 health, you're down to 10/100 health. You can have 15-hits worth of Stamina (for example), and the next hit can still outright kill you.

 

 

Thanks for the details. I'm sure now i've well understood all the matter. Well, i've no real problem with stamina regeneration in most games. In Skyrim, as an example, stamina allows you to run faster, perform powerfull attacks and so on. While your are out of breath, you have to rest few seconds in order to the stamina regenerates.

 

But here, stamina is something wich is tied to damages you take. If i 've understood well, when you are hurt, you take stamina damages, and 25% of the stamina damages become health damages (4/1). So, if stamina regenerates (even if health don't), it's kind of a non Roleplay way to cure part of the damages you took. I've underlined it, my problem, at first, is the non logical/Roleplay matter.

 

If stamina is about to regenerates, that's ok, but then, stamina should not be linked to damages you took. Because it seems to be stuff you may found in casu modern RPGs even Skyrim did not brought.

 

 

EDIT: agree with you Osvir. I thought the same way.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Abel

[Mor]

Skyrim is bad example as it doesn't have attributes in the same sense as PoE(or any cRPGs). I think since morrwind they are down to health, mana and this stamina which is the measurement of how fatigue you are.

 

In PoE stamina represents how much punishment you can take in combat, while health is how much punishment you can take without resting.

[Pexei]

I'm quite confused as well in regards to this aversion to stamina regeneration and it most definitely feels like its due to one of two reasons:

 

1) Not understanding the concept behind stamina/health, (which has been extensively explained in this thread and in various others) and assuming its exists to be "easy mode"

 

2) Not being "realistic" or "immerse"...

 

In regards to the first point, like I said the mechanics have already been covered so no need to keep beating that dead horse. My opinion however is similar to a couple of other people and also has to do with the fact that games are suppose to be fun to play, not obnoxiously frustrating or tedious. Non regenerating stamina and extremely limited resting (as the only means to regen that stamina, and yes that includes healing by priests as that is limited as well and would only be available again by resting) is honestly a very cheap way of making a game more challenging, and in fact only makes it take longer to do things (you either reach a point where you can no longer fight and cant rest anymore, and are forced to reload an earlier save, or you constantly back track in order to regen, or the worst of all which someone mentioned above... forced to carry a ton of healers in the party) and can eventually force you to always play or use the same "best" tactic which makes combat repetitive, dull and doesn't leave room for creativity.

 

In regards to the second point... where is this notion of "this RPG, which is set in a fantasy world with soul magic, dragons, god like races, fish people etc has to be super realistic" coming from? Sorry but it does not, and I would imagine most people who backed it don't expect it to be a realist medieval combat simulator. Sawyer has repeatedly mentioned how the crux of challenge in combat is tactical  not strategic. That doesn't mean you should never think of long term consequences, that's the point of health, but it means the challenge has much more to do with each encounter than with having to worry about how every single one of your combat choices is going to direly impact your next 5 encounters. Also, being forced to carry a bunch of healers, or having to stop after only a few fights and go back to rest somewhere, or always using the same strategy to never take damage and only ever rest because your party is tired after staying up to long or running too much  (thats what fatigue was for in BG) is the complete opposite of immersion. 

 

There are some great ideas in regards to low stamina affecting cooldowns, ability efficacy etc and in the system we know of right now, all that would have an affect during combat, but I fail to see why punishing the player to that extent after combat is fun or immersive. This is not a competitive multiplayer game, its not about you being more skillful than other people at combat, it's not about bragging rights because you want or can play on a harder difficulty than other people. 

[Abel]

There are some great ideas in regards to low stamina affecting cooldowns, ability efficacy etc and in the system we know of right now, all that would have an affect during combat, but I fail to see why punishing the player to that extent after combat is fun or immersive. This is not a competitive multiplayer game, its not about you being more skillful than other people at combat, it's not about bragging rights because you want or can play on a harder difficulty than other people. 

 

For my part, i just don't like the idea. I don't mean my point of view is the right one As an example, for me, what is not immersive is that you don't have to go back during your journey because of the wounds/fatigue of your party. For you, having to do so is punishment, for me it's just well deserved pauses for my living things in my party between 2 hack n slash times. I don't see this as a punishment, but as something every living creature should do.

 

I played on a NWN2 persistant RP server where i nearly never drawn my weapon out in one year (only one fight, and it was kind of "paladin's suicide for the greater good"), and where the only way to gain xp was Roleplay (no xp for monsters). One year >>> lvl 15. And that was great. It was a very very hardcore roleplay server because having a character who survived the Inquisition/political matters for a so long time was rare: many characters were just "killed" by DMs. One error, one wrong word >>> Death and no resurection. Players here didn't saw this as a punishment because the DMs and Roleplay quality was very high. But some would. It's a matter of "how do we see Roleplay?" There is no good and bad answer. It was a great time for me roleplaying. As an example of how it could be fun (and not just like punishment), i can say than after 1 year, as the Triad's temple high paladine, my character finally could throw away the murderous Inquisition and bring on the throne someone very fond of Torm...

 

Once more, it's a matter of taste. I'm just really surprised because i've imagined there was more hardcore Rolists here.

 

But still, i really don't like the idea. No game can fulfill everyone expectations on all subjects. So, no problem, i'll bear it and try to focuse on the fun this system should bring as a counterpart.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Abel

[Lephys]

For my part, i just don't like the idea. I don't mean my point of view is the right one As an example, for me, what is not immersive is that you don't have to go back during your journey because of the wounds/fatigue of your party.

See, it's things like that that make me strongly feel like you're still misunderstanding some aspect of the design. I'm not trying to be hostile here, I just really believe your feelings against the stamina regen are at least partially in response to a mistaken idea of the whole design.

 

Your health requires you to "go back during your journey because of the wounds/fatigue of your party." At least the wounds part. As for the fatigue, simple "Oh, we were sprinting and exerting ourselves, and now we're not" fatigue does actually "regenerate" in real life. You rest for a bit, and it goes away. You don't have to go back to an inn just because you sprinted a bit, or fought some orcs/bandits. That's what's being represented by "Stamina" in PoE's design. As for long-term fatigue? They haven't really said anything about that, I don't think. It could very well be an issue. And, in that regard, I do like Osvir's idea of lowering your Stamina cap (so that it stops at 90% of your total instead of 100, etc.). Maybe Stamina-restoring abilities, in-combat, could actually still push it back up to 100, if only temporarily? That would even be pretty cool.

 

Annnywo, the point is, you've got 2 different ways in which you can be screwed:

 

1) You lose the ability to fight (even though you're still healthy and alive) whilst your opponents still possess that ability, OR

 

2) You suffer fatal wounds and die.

 

Health is a representation of your actual physiological/biological damage. If you get a cut on your leg, you lose less health than if you get a gash all the way down your leg, to the bone. That sort of thing. It's ALSO going to affect your stamina, though. Your immediate ability to not collapse onto the ground, even if it's not because you're near death.

 

So, Stamina's main representation is the "can I make it through this fight" aspect of your ability to stand and fight. Hence, once you do so, it regenerates rather quickly. Why? For the same reason the time in a game is abstracted, and you don't have to go spend an hour of real-life time watching your party sit in a tavern for an entire hour, just to wait an hour in-game until some person meets you. Because, simply put, that's not particularly fun. And, as far as stamina goes, once you're not in immediate danger, nothing's preventing you from "Catching your breath." And, with the abstract passage of time, it makes sense that that would happen faster rather than require 30 minutes of you. However, no amount of abstracted couple-hours' worth of time passage is going to have your leg gash heal itself. Which is why you STILL have to go long-term rest and heal-up your wounds. Which is STILL abstracted, but represents your inability to simply wait it out/"walk it off." I mean, if you have 100% stamina, but run out of Health, you die. Your Stamina doesn't override your Health. So, when you get to 1 Health, your Stamina regenning itself to full isn't exactly cheap, as it's not going to save you from anything. It doesn't negate the need to heal.

 

That's pretty much the entire point of the distinction. Health = no regen or recovery on-the-fly. Stamina = recovery on the fly. Thus, if stamina didn't regenerate, there would literally be no point in its existence as separate from health. You'd just have 2, redundant health bars. "If you run out of stamina, you die. If you run out of health, you die. Have fun! 8D!"

 

Does that make sense? By all means, you're welcome to your opinion about it. I'm not trying to tell you you can't feel bad about the design or something. But, if you've got an objective problem with it, there kind of has to be an objective reason for that to work, and I'm not seeing anything that's actually problematic with this particular design's use of stamina regen. Maybe you feel there's a better design, and that's why you don't like it?

 

I would very much like to understand what it is that's fueling your perspective on this, is all. So, if I'm wrong and you haven't misunderstood, then please forgive me, and clarification would be much appreciated (as obviously, at that point, I'm misunderstanding you).

Edited December 19, 2013 by Lephys

[Pexei]

 

 

What you said about abstract passage of time is exactly what I was thinking as well and perfectly fits with the concept of stamina, health and resting. However, the example Abel mentioned about his NWN2 persistant RP play reminded me of a certain game I used to play that made me think that maybe that type of game is where his and others feeling about stamina regen and what it implies stems from.

 

Long ago I use to play MMO`s quite a bit, and the one I thought of was FFXI. At the time I played, it was one of the most hardcore MMO`s in the scene due not only to the insane time sink it required, but the actual difficulty of getting pretty much anything done in any sort of efficient way. Starting from scratch and getting to the level cap (75 at the time) literally took months of hardcore play, and if you didn't manage to get a static party of have a decent linkshell it could and did take over a year... of playing pretty much every day. 

 

Anyways the point was I played that game for years and was so invested in it that after I quit, every other MMO just wasn't "hard" enough and just didn't give me the same sense of accomplishment as the time and work I put in FFXI. But the 2 times i went back to playing it, I realized that the very mechanics I felt endeared to in regards to "difficulty" were actually extremely annoying and just added an extra layer of unneeded complexity that  made everything take longer and feel frustrating at times. The accomplishment is still there, but I just don't feel like certain mechanics that seem to make the game harder by adding more realism/complexity actually make it funner, just more time consuming.

 

Abel, I might be completely wrong in my analysis here but if I'm not, I know that feel. ButI would rather give it up to have a more fun game and efficient use of my time.

 

But then again they could potentially add that in a higher difficulty or someone can mod that in, so this entire discussion here is more conceptual than anything

[Lephys]

Yeah, it's not simply that faster is always better. It's just that, if there's no strategic decision-making going on in the non-abstractly-sped-up time (the quick regen of stamina outside of combat, in this case), then there's not really anything to be gained by accurately representing the effects of time on it there.

[Abel]

 

For my part, i just don't like the idea. I don't mean my point of view is the right one As an example, for me, what is not immersive is that you don't have to go back during your journey because of the wounds/fatigue of your party.

See, it's things like that that make me strongly feel like you're still misunderstanding some aspect of the design. I'm not trying to be hostile here, I just really believe your feelings against the stamina regen are at least partially in response to a mistaken idea of the whole design.

 

Your health requires you to "go back during your journey because of the wounds/fatigue of your party." At least the wounds part. As for the fatigue, simple "Oh, we were sprinting and exerting ourselves, and now we're not" fatigue does actually "regenerate" in real life. You rest for a bit, and it goes away. You don't have to go back to an inn just because you sprinted a bit, or fought some orcs/bandits. That's what's being represented by "Stamina" in PoE's design. As for long-term fatigue? They haven't really said anything about that, I don't think. It could very well be an issue. And, in that regard, I do like Osvir's idea of lowering your Stamina cap (so that it stops at 90% of your total instead of 100, etc.). Maybe Stamina-restoring abilities, in-combat, could actually still push it back up to 100, if only temporarily? That would even be pretty cool.

 

 

I've not understood "all" you said, but what i understood makes sense. It's true that it would be strange that, just at the exit of the inn, after a well deserved rest, you encounter some orchish things, fight, and then, find yourself with low stamina that leads you to go once more in the inn to rest. AGAIN :D. This is NOT more realistic at all. I realize where i've mistaken, thanks.

 

Hum... Thinking of it, i may have though stamina is just like "fatigue", but i think the 2 mechanics should be separated. Reading you, stamina seems to be more something like "for how amount of time could i bear the suffering before being knocked down?". Not "I've exhausted all my will to fight for the time. Let's take a stop to rest".

 

In the IE games it was kind of weird that characters could fight as efficiently with 1 HP out of 150 as when they had 150/150 HP. But still, when one's life is in great danger, one is aware of all. I can't figure out the real "thing" behind stamina. I see the game mechanics, but not really the immersive reason behind it. What is its true interest beyond just "well, your character is not really at his end, you could travel further today if you wish so". (I really think that if in a RPG you just see the game mechanic and nothing else, then, this game mechanic has to be reworked)

 

Maybe a slower stamina regeneration that can only go up to 90% of the stamina you had before a fight is a better idea. But what is stamina? In french it's "endurance". What is the biological mechanic stamina tends to traduce into gameplay mechanics? Is Stamina a well deserved name for this particular system?

 

All of this makes me even more confused about it. I'm not sure my post is undestandable or if i traduced correctly my feelings, but i hope so.

 

 

Pexei: "this entire discussion here is more conceptual than anything "

 

 

That's all of the fun here friend :D. It's true i've always been kind of hardcore gamer. But really not the worse ever. I'm ok with hardcore only if it has some real usefullness into immersion matter, not just for the hardcore sake. And i become hardcore when i see something that is immersion breaking with no real purpose beyond "let's add a mechanic just for the greater good of adding unrealistic mechanic". The worse thing ever in RPGs is crafting... Already spoke about it. Arcanum >>> the best i've seen, Skyrim >>> The worse.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Abel

[Lephys]

I'm sorry, as I realize I'm saying an awful lot of stuff, and all of it probably doesn't make perfect sense at a glance. And, for what it's worth, I'm not trying to call you out on not understanding the stamina design or anything. My interest is only in helping you to understand it.

 

And yeah, it's kinda weird, even when you do get it. It's pretty abstract. I mean, with a game, we take something as complex as life, and we try to just make it an equation. We just turn it into numbers. And, for someone to just have 50 stamina, and get hit, and now have 40 stamina... that's strange. But, it still kinda works.

 

Even though stamina/endurance -- the term -- means a lot more, I think the mechanic in-game is basically just supposed to cover short-term, ehh... fighting capability. It's sort of a combination of tiredness and trauma. Like in sports... people take a really bad hit, and they're down. Sometimes they aren't even moving for a good minute or so. So they stop the game and referees and medical people run out on the field to check on them. Often times, after a minute or two of recovering from the blow, they get back up, and there's no lasting damage. It just was a lot of trauma, and probably a lot of pain, all at once. So, they were immediately overwhelmed by it (even if they didn't lose consciousness), and couldn't really continue playing the sport to any effect.

 

It's kinda like that. But, it's ALSO sort of your immediate tiredness. Like... go do as many pushups as you can, all at once/in a row. Or sprint as fast as you can, as far as you can, until you have to stop. At the moment you stop, you probably feel like you can't do another pushup, or run any farther. But, take a few minutes to rest, then try to sprint some more or do more pushups, and I bet you'll be able to. It's that. You're not fatigued for the whole rest of the day and must go get a long amount of rest or sleep to recover and be able to do more stuff. You're just temporarily fatigued.

 

I think it's more the first thing than the second thing, though; more trauma than fatigue. Because, again, even though the word stamina refers to your energy to do things, the abstracted PoE stamina is mostly (if not fully) representative of damage-taking. Basically, ignoring immediate pain and trauma and such and remaining upright and in a fighting stance, or at least remaining awake and able to get back up and keep fighting. But, also, to take a forceful blow, that takes energy to keep your body up/keep your balance, etc. So, the fatigue thing comes into play a bit even when you're getting hit and taking damage.

 

And, back to abstraction, it's still a bit weird, because it's not localized. You don't take a blow to the leg and fall to your knee/knees because it was your leg that got hit. You keep standing just fine because you still have stamina. Then, when you run out of stamina from taking 5 more hits like that with a sword/club, you just pass out (even if you're not actually dying/bleeding to death, etc.).

 

But... that's abstraction. I mean, ideally, it could still be represented a little more precisely. Like you said, after some amount of time, or so much stamina loss, it only regens to 90%, or then maybe 80%, etc., until you rest again. And/or, maybe the less you have left, the worse you fight. "Oh, you're at 30% stamina? You're a bit sluggish now, and your attack speed is suffering, too."

 

That actually wouldn't be too hard to do, as armor weight/bulk already affects "action speed," which apparently governs almost everything you do (except movement, I think?). So, you could have low stamina give a penalty to action speed, etc.

 

But then, with the "you've got 4 times the health as you do stamina" thing, it might make more sense from a game mechanics standpoint to have low health affect your action speed. So that, if you're near death, even if you've got a bunch of stamina (which is weird and abstract again, but, *shrug* ), you'd be fighting more crappily. So, that would be an incentive to fight efficiently and "protect" your health, so to speak, instead of just saying "Meh, I can take all that stamina damage 3 more times before I actually die...".

 

Of course, that might just make going and resting TOO frequent a thing, because the encounters and such will probably be balanced against your 100% effective party, and not your "everyone's at 50% speed 'cause they're all super wounded" party. *shrug*

 

Annnnnnywho. Now I'm just rambling.

[dashal]

Is this likely to end up as a feature of the difficulty of pillars?

[Abel]

I'm sorry, as I realize I'm saying an awful lot of stuff, and all of it probably doesn't make perfect sense at a glance. And, for what it's worth, I'm not trying to call you out on not understanding the stamina design or anything. My interest is only in helping you to understand it.

 

Really, there is no problem at all. Your posts are interesting. It's my english at fault here . And yes, i really need someone to explain me things when i don't understand them. Even more if i believed i understood them and i missed the point. So, great thanks for your patience with me

 

I agree with pretty much all you said. It may be trivial or seems out of context to some people, but i need the mechanics to be "believable", because when i play, i don't want to see the mechanics, but the world and how it runs. It's about immersion. I think mechanics have to be part of the lore, and J.Sawyer said it i think. Hope that there will be some things to explain all this stuff in a more immersive way at the release.

 

@dashal: I know that expert mode allow characters to die instead of just being maimed (thankfully). But about Stamina mechanic, i've no idea. It may be useful though.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Abel

[Osvir]

Is this likely to end up as a feature of the difficulty of pillars?

Hmm, probably not. But why is Health affected by Difficulty but not Stamina?

 

EDIT: What I am asking of the harder difficulty is to make the character a little bit more fragile too. Weaker than normal play. I think that a Daily Stamina resource and only one Rest per day would make the game more difficult.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Osvir

[Mor]

I think that a Daily Stamina resource and only one Rest per day would make the game more difficult.

I don't think you understand how stamina\health works... what you suggest will make health redundant.

 

also if you want to make the game more difficult play on the hardest level with all challenge modes on.(Modes) If by the time you finish your first game, you still require more challange, I am sure you'll be able to find some mods that will help you to that fix.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Mor

[Osvir]

 

I think that a Daily Stamina resource and only one Rest per day would make the game more difficult.

I don't think you understand how stamina\health works... what you suggest will make health redundant.

 

also if you want to make the game more difficult play on the hardest level with all challenge modes on.(Modes) If by the time you finish your first game, you still require more challange, I am sure you'll be able to find some mods that will help you to that fix.

I know how Health/Stamina works, what I am suggesting is something that makes the game more difficult inspired by how Health/Stamina already works, but with a bit of a twist and some (in my opinion) enhancements to make it more difficult. Less Stamina = Easier to get hit. Easier to get hit = Less Health. Having 0 Health still kills you (On Expert, which this idea is designed for). If Stamina worked as I suggest/propose (on Expert/Hardcore), then you'd have a higher chance of getting struck (and thus getting closer to 0 Health), which in turn makes the game more difficult. I think that sounds pretty straight-on in my opinion.

 

The only thing, in my head, that sounds like redundancy about Health, is it'd be going down much more 

 

Another idea:

96%-100% Stamina = Enemy is "Likely to Miss"

61%-95% Stamina = Enemy is "Likely to Graze"

16%-60% Stamina = Enemy is "Likely to Hit"

1%-15% Stamina = Enemy is "Likely to Crit"

 

Adding this on top of the idea would make it even more difficult as time goes along. At the start of the day you'd be strong, and towards the night you'd be weak.

 

Someone mentioned "Then I need to have more healers!" or something like that, and I have to say that is true for any playthrough, you can have any amount of any class as you'd like (up to 6), but there'd be consequences in combat for it as well. Just cus you have 5 healers doesn't make combat any easier, quite the opposite, it'd probably make combat way more difficult cus you'd only have a single character built to deal damage.

 

Another addition to the idea which'd make the difficulty yet again make more sense, and Stamina as well:

 

- Combat Stamina (Stamina has no cap and you can heal it as high as possible)

- Global Stamina (Stamina has a cap and progressively goes down with time+after encounters)

 

So, if my Global Stamina is 70%, it would mean I've been in a couple of fights. Then I get into another fight and now the Combat Stamina is "activated" (it's the same thing really but follows some different rules), the Combat Stamina would start at 70%, but could be boosted to 100% during the fight, granted that I have the spells or items to do so with. After the fight, the Global Stamina would regenerate (or degenerate) to the cap, which would be around 65%.

 

Explanation: If I have 80% Combat Stamina at the end of the fight, it'd degenerate to 65%, instead of regenerate. Well, how do I explain that? Adrenaline. During the fight the character was pumped up and enhanced in some way or some sort, the soul gained more "power" or whatnot for a brief duration of time, and as the character takes a breather and reflects the fight or whatever, he or she actually feels the effects of being more tired than he or she is.

 

Similarly, if the Global Stamina is 10% at the beginning of a fight (this would be towards the end of the night), that'd mean the [Enemy is "Likely to Crit"] you, apart from you having less of a Stamina resource yourself to work with (you wouldn't be able to just throw out lots of attacks or abilities, cus it'd cost you Stamina and potentially make you pass out). Being able to heal up that Stamina a little bit at the start of the fight would be helpful, but you can't deny that it would be more difficult than having to start with 100% Stamina every battle.

 

Question: If you start an encounter with 10% Stamina you'd have more trouble than starting the same encounter with 100% Stamina, right? = Difficulty

[PrimeJunta]

Frankly, Osvir, I think you're just adding complication for the sake of complication. Those mechanics aren't transparent. The player's experience of them would just be that the rules keep changing for no obvious reason, or that there are more variables to keep track of. That's not clever; it's just bad design: confusing, un-fun, shoddy.

 

The mechanics as originally proposed are simple, understandable, have both a tactical and a strategic dimension, and permit a broad variety of tactics, strategies, and character/party builds. That's where the beef should be -- the classes, talents, spells, items, and so on. Keep the mechanics as simple and transparent as possible while allowing maximal variety in those.

[Abel]

 

 

The mechanics as originally proposed are simple, understandable, have both a tactical and a strategic dimension, and permit a broad variety of tactics, strategies, and character/party builds. That's where the beef should be -- the classes, talents, spells, items, and so on. Keep the mechanics as simple and transparent as possible while allowing maximal variety in those.

 

The only thing i have to say about that is that i prefer parties to have to be balanced rather than viable with 6 same-class characters, or whatever party you gather. In BG, it was interesting that you had to balance your party (wizards/fighters/healers/buffers/thieves... Even more in IWD). If the game is about the same difficulty with 6 rogues or 6 wizards than with a well balanced party you spent time to think about, it's quite a pity. All party types/all characters builds should not be about the same efficiency just because of "the sake of "freedom"".

 

Something i read about J.Sawyer made me think about this matter. But it may be pointless.

 

IMO.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Abel

[Osvir]

Frankly, Osvir, I think you're just adding complication for the sake of complication. Those mechanics aren't transparent. The player's experience of them would just be that the rules keep changing for no obvious reason, or that there are more variables to keep track of. That's not clever; it's just bad design: confusing, un-fun, shoddy.

 

The mechanics as originally proposed are simple, understandable, have both a tactical and a strategic dimension, and permit a broad variety of tactics, strategies, and character/party builds. That's where the beef should be -- the classes, talents, spells, items, and so on. Keep the mechanics as simple and transparent as possible while allowing maximal variety in those.

Wrong. I am adding "complication" for the sake of difficulty. You do know I am pointing my finger at the hardest difficulty of the game right? Not towards the general game or the general mechanic (I think what Obsidian got for the Stamina mechanic is great, that's not what I want to twist and bend, but I do want to twist and bend it for the hardest difficulty).

 

Just out of curiosity, how are the mechanics confusing and/or not understandable? Asking for constructive criticism, because I am running this idea through my head and I don't think it's that difficult to comprehend really. I am the author of it though so that makes sense, which is partially why I don't understand your comment on "it looks complicated" (which I assure you I think it's not).

 

From a clean slate, my first impression, Hardcore difficulty perspective:

 

- Scenario 1a: Engage in a battle with 100% Stamina = After battle you've got 95% Stamina and it won't regenerate more than that.

Impression: "Huh, seems my Stamina doesn't regenerate all the way after a battle"

 

- Scenario 1b: Engage in another battle with your now 95% Stamina = After battle your Stamina regenerates to 90% Stamina.

Impression: "The hypothesis is confirmed!"

 

- Scenario 2a: Rest (Regain 100% Stamina & 100% Health) = After rest you can't rest again.

Impression: "Health+Stamina regenerates fully, and I guess I can't rest in a row"

 

- Scenario 1c: Engage in a battle with 100% Stamina = After battle you've got 95% Stamina.

Impression: "Yep, I know this mechanic now"

 

- Scenario 2b: Go to Rest spot = Can't rest again.

Impression: "Seems I can't rest too often at all"

 

- Scenario 2c: Play the game/Experiment with the game = Can rest again after a while = Can't rest again after that.

Impression: "Seems I can only rest once in a while... daily?"

 

- Scenario 2d: Experiment with daily Rest = can rest once a day.

Impression: "Can rest once a day. Okay"

 

- Scenario 3: Stamina goes down over time = Stamina degenerates.

Impression: "The character gets more tired as time progresses? Seems like it."

 

For the latest addition, which does add some complexity to it, but in a sensical kind of way (The lower Stamina you have = The "weaker", tired really, you get)*:

 

- Scenario 4a: Engage in battle with 100% Stamina = Enemy misses.

Impression: "Hm, is the game on this difficulty supposed to be this easy?"

 

- Scenario 4b: Engage later in battle with 60% Stamina = Enemy hits more often.

Impression: "Hm, so the lower Stamina I have the more I get hit huh?"

 

- Scenario 4c: Engage even later in battle with 10% Stamina = Enemy crits more.

Impression: "Half-Life 3 Confirmed, better not let my Stamina go too low"

 

* It makes sense because at the end of the day you are tired. What I am proposing is that Stamina is governed like "Fatigue" or "How tired you are" or "How effective you are" and not only a "Combat Only Resource by the name of Stamina to illustrate or illuminate a sense of having Stamina which is non-existant". It is a fantasy game, heck it's a game altogether and you might throw that argument at me, but the Stamina I am proposing is more "real". "Reality" is not why I am proposing this idea though, I am proposing this idea because it would** add more "Difficulty", which is exactly what I am trying to address.

 

Moar difficulty plox! I want to experience Eternity in all its hardcore glory that it can be.

 

** How do I know that it would? Because I am a genious of course! No but, jokes aside. Compare these two mechanics please:

- Stamina Regenerates to 100% After Every Fight and you can Rest as much as you like

- Stamina Regenerates to [-X% of Post-Battle Stamina] After Every Fight and you can Rest Only Once a Day

 

Which one would cause the game to be more difficult on the most difficult settings?

Edited December 23, 2013 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

The health/stamina system already adds a strategic dimension to adventuring. The mechanic you're proposing does the same thing, except it adds more complication. Difficulty is determined by how hard the combat encounters are, and how frequent resting possibilities are.

 

I.e., I don't see how your added mechanics contribute to the game in any meaningful way. If you want to make it more difficult (in a strategic, resource-management sense), just space out the resting possibilities more.

 

I also think that (1) a "tiredness" mechanic is a poor fit for a game like PoE (unlike, say, FO NV, where it is a pretty good fit, what with the wasteland survival aspect of it all), and (2) if you wanted a "tiredeness" mechanic, there would be better ways of doing it, e.g. requiring periodic food, water, and resting.

 

So: unnecessarily complicated, accomplishes a purpose that the existing mechanics already accomplish, and a poor fit for the game. Bad idea.

Edited December 23, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[PrimeJunta]

As an afterthought, Osvir: the system already does what your more complicated mechanic would, more or less.

 

Suppose Mr. Hero, with 100 Health, 100 Stamina, has gone through a rough day of adventuring that has left him with only 10 Health for the final battle of the day.

 

If damage is dealt at 1:4 (health/stamina), he only has effectively 40 stamina. When he takes the 40th point, his health will hit zero and he's out of the game.

 

Only the curve is different. In your model it slopes down gently; in the current one it stays flat until your health is at 25%, after which it falls steeply. In both cases, a badly beat-up party will be fragile. I.e., your mechanic is almost completely redundant.

[Osvir]

The health/stamina system already adds a strategic dimension to adventuring. The mechanic you're proposing does the same thing, except it adds more complication. Difficulty is determined by how hard the combat encounters are, and how frequent resting possibilities are.

 

I.e., I don't see how your added mechanics contribute to the game in any meaningful way. If you want to make it more difficult (in a strategic, resource-management sense), just space out the resting possibilities more.

 

I also think that (1) a "tiredness" mechanic is a poor fit for a game like PoE (unlike, say, FO NV, where it is a pretty good fit, what with the wasteland survival aspect of it all), and (2) if you wanted a "tiredeness" mechanic, there would be better ways of doing it, e.g. requiring periodic food, water, and resting.

 

So: unnecessarily complicated, accomplishes a purpose that the existing mechanics already accomplish, and a poor fit for the game. Bad idea.

You're not getting the point! Your face is a bad idea! no ill intended btw, that was a friendly brotherly joke

 

I get what you are saying but it doesn't feel like my points are getting through to you. PE's design for Health/Stamina is comprehensible, but it can be more difficult on a higher tier difficulty (Such as Expert/Hardcore/Hard-Deluxe-Mode)

 

Pick ONE, which would be more difficult?

A) Instant 100% Stamina Regen after Every Battle

B) Fixated Stamina Regen based on Stamina prior to combat (100% cap before, caps at 95% after) and limited Resting.

 

Do you compreheeeeeeeend!?

 

There is a great difference between saying "If you want it to be more difficult, then just don't rest as much" and saying "You can only rest once a day". One is a self-imposed ruleset that the Player has to force themselves to do, the other is a strict classroom teacher in black latex named Gunther with a beating stick. In the former you always have a "Plan B", but in the latter you'll suffer consequences and could potentially get into situations where you screw up or where you are fragile from the get-go.

 

So which one is harder?

 

There is nothing unnecessarily complicated about it. It's a simple question with a simple answer.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Osvir

[Osvir]

Okay, let's discuss difficulty:

Obsidian's Idea:
Let's say I get down to 10% Health, I still have 100% Stamina to spend freely whenever I encounter an enemy, even at the end of the day.

What I am suggesting, or asking to be inspired from:
Let's say I get down to 10% Health by the end of the day, I'd also only have 15% Stamina to spend during the encounter.

Do you see the difference? In Obsidian's Stamina model I'd be able to unleash hell's fury at the end of the day, at any time of the day really, but in my model/system/idea, you wouldn't be able to do that, or else you'd be burned of Stamina. You'd have to be more resourceful and both tactical and strategical in how you move about in the world. I.e. more difficult to move around. Not only are the encounters already difficult in Hardcore, I hope, but adding in a Stamina system like this on top of that... suffice to say is that it, again, would be more difficult.

Often times:
More Difficult = More Complicated

Wouldn't you agree? Okay maybe you don't, but hear me out.

Take StarCraft II, compare Casual Mode and Brutal Mode. In Casual I can click "Auto-Attack" on the other side of the map and then go make dinner, it's as simple as can be. It's as easy and accessible as can be. But in Brutal I sometimes I have to sit on my toes, I react real-time to the AI onslaughts and it's way more complicated to deal with foes who are tougher and more relentless.

I don't want a Demi-God Soulcrusher Character when I'm playing on Hardcore. I don't just want the world to be rougher (encounters stronger and a more hazardous world), I want the PC characters to be weaker on Hardcore. One of the things that Slenderman got most praise about (Apart from being pretty scary the first two or three runs) is that it puts your character in a situation where they can't fight, you only have a flashlight and you can only run for so long, you aren't an RPG Goddess or a King of Nords (Skyrim) in any way.

You are weak.

PoE can benefit a lot from this... on the hardest difficulty settings. I feel like I'm repeating this over and over again.

The bottom line: I just want Hardcore to be more Hardcore than what Obsidian is planning. And when Obsidian comes out with a sigh of relief "It's finally Hardcore enough!" I'm going to say "Not Hardcore enough". I want a near unbeatable beatable Hardcore. This Stamina Regen idea I propose is just one that I am 100% sure would reach that goal a little bit closer.

[PrimeJunta]

You're not getting the point! Your face is a bad idea! no ill intended btw, that was a friendly brotherly joke

 

I get what you are saying but it doesn't feel like my points are getting through to you. PE's design for Health/Stamina is comprehensible, but it can be more difficult on a higher tier difficulty (Such as Expert/Hardcore/Hard-Deluxe-Mode)

Pick ONE, which would be more difficult?

A) Instant 100% Stamina Regen after Every Battle

B) Fixated Stamina Regen based on Regen prior to combat (100% cap before, caps at 95% after) and limited Resting.

 

Do you compreheeeeeeeend!?

 

Osvir, I'm not an idiot. Kindly stop treating me like one.

 

There is a great difference between saying "If you want it to be more difficult, then just don't rest as much" and saying "You can only rest once a day". One is a self-imposed ruleset that the Player has to force themselves to do, the other is a strict classroom teacher in black latex named Gunther with a beating stick. In the former you always have a "Plan B", but in the latter you'll suffer consequences and could potentially get into situations where you screw up or where you are fragile from the get-go.

I wasn't talking about a self-imposed system. I was talking about the relative spacing of combat and rest spots in the game. A design decision.

 

So which one is harder?

 

There is nothing unnecessarily complicated about it. It's a simple question with a simple answer.

Yours, of course.

 

Now, which is harder: your mechanic with health/stamina damage dealt at a ratio of 1:4, or the existing mechanics but with a ratio of 1:2?

Edited December 23, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[PrimeJunta]

Okay, let's discuss difficulty:

 

Obsidian's Idea:

Let's say I get down to 10% Health, I still have 100% Stamina to spend freely whenever I encounter an enemy, even at the end of the day.

Actually, you'd only have 40% stamina to spend. Looks like you don't quite understand how Obsidian's mechanics even work.

[Osvir]

Now, which is harder: your mechanic with health/stamina damage dealt at a ratio of 1:4, or the existing mechanics but with a ratio of 1:2?

The existing mechanics with a ratio of 1:2 ofc.

 

But truthfully? Both combined together

 

 

Okay, let's discuss difficulty:

 

Obsidian's Idea:

Let's say I get down to 10% Health, I still have 100% Stamina to spend freely whenever I encounter an enemy, even at the end of the day.

Actually, you'd only have 40% stamina to spend. Looks like you don't quite understand how Obsidian's mechanics even work.

So if I use an attack or an ability that costs 4% Stamina I'd take 1% Health damage from it because I... acted?

 

And no, I don't fully understand Obsidians Health/Stamina system, I've only caught up on some things about it. Didn't quite understand it back then either to be honest and left the discussion alone because I felt "I'll let others discuss this matter, it'll probably come out great in the end". Which it probably will.

 

But you can always make it more difficult

Edited December 23, 2013 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

Under the current system, you can adjust strategic difficulty simply by tuning the ratio of H/S damage. You can make it as hard as you like, right down to 1:1 (where the distinction between S and H disappears). You can also tune up damage.

 

I.e., you can make the game as hard as you like with the current mechanics. I still see no point in introducing a new one. As stated, it's unnecessary complication.