NWN2 influences: what to take and what to leave

[PrimeJunta]

True. Thankfully, you're not Banishing the KOS. You're destroying him. Astral travelers who get their cords cut become permanently dead.

I'm not, but the Illefarn did. That's how he ended up in the Astral Plane to start with, remember?

 

(Edit: or did they? I forget, where did Illefarn banish him? If not the Astral Plane, then how did he end up there, and why does severing his connection to it make it possible to destroy him? Again, it makes no sense. It just mangles astral projection beyond all recognition.)

 

Small discussion of planar physics (edit) in the Forgotten Realms/D&D universe.

 

The physical body is on the Prime Material. The astral body is on the Astral. The Silver Cord is also on the astral. The Astral Plane is a transitive plane, overlapping with the Prime Material and the Outer planes.

 

That means that for any point (x,y,z) on the Prime Material plane there is a corresponding point (x,y,z) on the Astral plane, but the converse is not true. Most points on the Astral plane have no corresponding location on the Prime Material. The interview with Myrkul in MotB, for example, happened at a location on the astral plane that almost certainly does not correspond to any location on a Prime Material, but very likely corresponds to some location on an Outer plane.

 

The distances between any two matching points can also differ radically. Sometimes a very long distance on the Prime Material is a very short distance on the Astral, and vice versa. Which makes traveling through the astral plane, e.g. by astral projection, attractive.

 

Under normal circumstances, your astral body completely overlaps your physical body; i.e., any point (x,y,z) in your physical body matches the same (x,y,z) in your astral body. With astral projection, your astral body and physical body move apart, but your consciousness stays with your astral body. The connection between your astral body and physical body is the silver cord, which simply connects the center of your astral body, wherever it is on the astral plane, to the point on the astral plane matching the location of your physical body on the material plane. It is a connection between two points on the astral plane.

 

In other words, it doesn't exist on the physical plane at all, any more than your astral body. Your astral body is astral because it is on the astral plane; if it wasn't, it woudln't be. There wouldn't be any point, and in many cases there wouldn't even be any place for it to exist, as the astral body could be somewhere that has no matching location on the prime material plane.

 

N.b.: the astral plane has evolved a fair bit over the history of (A)D&D, and there's also a certain amount of contradictory lore about it, e.g. some sources treat it as something like an outer plane, others as a transitive plane. But I believe this is the way astral projection works, mechanically, in all of the editions. The color pools you use to exit the astral plane add some complication to the story, but I won't get into that here.

 

In any case, I find it odd that with all of NWN2's blatant faults and shortcomings, that we'd focus on the nature of the KOS (and earlier, someone was focussing on Ammon Jerro). LOL 2 things they actually did Right!

I disagree, especially about the KoS. Terribly bad villain; at the same time clichéd and illogical. Ammon Jerro was an interesting character psychologically; the trouble with him was that his actions didn't make a lick of sense.

Edited June 30, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[Stun]

Small discussion of planar physics.

 

The physical body is on the Prime Material. The astral body is on the Astral. The Silver Cord is also on the astral. The Astral Plane is a transitive plane. That means that for any point (x,y,z) on the Prime Material plane there is a corresponding point (x,y,z) on the Astral plane, but the converse is not true. Most points on the Astral plane have no corresponding location on the Prime Material. The distances between any two matching points can also differ radically. Sometimes a very long distance on the Prime Material is a very short distance on the Astral, and vice versa. Which makes traveling through the astral plane, e.g. by astral projection, attractive.

 

Under normal circumstances, your astral body completely overlaps your physical body; i.e., any point (x,y,z) in your physical body matches the same (x,y,z) in your astral body. With astral projection, your astral body and physical body move apart, but your consciousness stays with your astral body. The connection between your astral body and physical body is the silver cord, which simply connects the center of your astral body, wherever it is on the astral plane, to the point on the astral plane matching the location of your physical body on the material plane. It is a connection between two points on the astral plane.

 

In other words, it doesn't exist on the physical plane at all, any more than your astral body. Your astral body is astral because it is on the astral plane; if it wasn't, it woudln't be. There wouldn't be any point, and in many cases there wouldn't even be any place for it to exist, as the astral body could be somewhere that has no matching location on the prime material plane.

Eh.... That's not quite how I'd enterpret things. First off, a minor point, We are talking about the metaphysics as they exist in D&D, rather than the "out of body experience" stuff that mystics here in the real world claim to be practicing. In D&D there's no inherant "mirror-like" similarities between the Prime material plane and the astral plane. The difference between the two is sorta like Earth vs. Outer space.

 

 

Second, there is quite a big difference between a being who astrally projects from the astral plane to the Prime, vs someone who does things the other way around. But in either case, the cord will follow the Projection. And in the KOS's case, this is what we got. He's not traveling to the astral plane, he's traveling here from the astral plane.

 

 

 

I disagree, especially about the KoS. Terribly bad villain; at the same time clichéd and illogical.

Cliched, perhaps, Illogical, certainly (for reasons you haven't even mentioned yet on this thread). But a bad villian? No way. My problem with him is that I didn't even see him as a villian at all until later playthroughs. In my first playthrough, I saw Garius as the villian. And I was (emotionally) done with the game after I killed him. I didn't want to kill the KOS, I wanted to cure him. But of course, the game doesn't let you do that. Edited June 30, 2013 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

Eh.... That's not quite how I'd enterpret things. First off, a minor point, there's no inherant "mirror-like" similarities between the Prime material plane and the astral plane. The difference between the two is sorta like Earth vs. Outer space.

Not so. That is the case with the Inner and Outer planes, which do not overlap with the Prime Material, but not with transitive planes. Transitive planes overlap with other planes. The Demiplane of Shadow, aka the Shadow Plane, as it's done in MotB, is an example of a transitive plane that overlaps with only one plane, i.e., the Prime Material. The Astral and Ethereal planes are transitive planes that overlap with multiple planes – the Ethereal with the Prime Material and Elemental planes, the Astral with the Prime Material and Outer planes.

 

Again: a transitive plane has a point matching every point (x, y, z) in each of the planes with which it overlaps, and possibly many points that do not overlap with any of them. That's what makes them transitive.

 

Second, there is quite a big difference between a being who astrally projects from the astral plane to the Prime, vs someone who does things the other way around. But in either case, the cord will follow the Projection. And in the KOS's case, this is what we got.

Specifically, the difference is that the former is not possible in the Forgotten Realms cosmology. Whoever wrote it in doesn't understand how the planes work, and how astral projection works. It's nonsensical.

 

Cliched, perhaps, Illogical, certainly (for reasons you haven't even mentioned yet on this thread). But a bad villian? No way. My problem with him is that I didn't even see him as a villian. In my first playthrough, I saw Garius as a villian at all. And I was (emotionally) done with the game after I killed him. I didn't want to kill the KOS, I wanted to cure him. But of course, the game doesn't let you do that.

Illogical, in the sense that I already described: he doesn't make sense within the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Planescape lore. Things just don't work like that. To recap:

 

(1) Astral projection works from the Prime Material to the Astral, not the other way around.

(2) What was he doing on the Astral Plane?

(3) How did he get there?

(4) If he was banished there by the Illefarn, why there?

(5) What kept him from popping right back to the Prime through the many portals there?

(6) Why was he laying waste to the Githyanki strongholds there, when he would stop at the borders of the Illefarn empire in the evil ending?

(7) How come the Sword of Gith is the only thing that can hurt him (not really) when his only connection to the Astral Plane is that he was banished there? (Or was he, see (3) above?)

( What's the connection with the Ritual of Purification, which doesn't actually appear to do anything to him?

 

The very basic idea – that the Illefarn would create a magical WMD drawing directly from the Weave, to defend against the Netherese, and that went Horribly Wrong when the Weave failed due to a magical experiment by the Netherese, causing said WMD to switch to the Shadow Weave after which things go Horribly Wrong – is fine, although jejune. Nothing from there on out makes a lick of sense. That's my problem with it. And it wouldn't even have been hard to make up a lore-consistent story about the Illefarn - KoS war and his subsequent attempts to return.

 

You know what I think? I think that whoever wrote it was such a desperate PS:T fanboy he absolutely had to write the Githyanki into the story, and then went through all these horribly convoluted twists and turns to do that, ending with a nonsensical story that plays fast and loose with the cosmology of the setting. That was a bad idea to start with. If you want to write in the Githyanki, then make up a different villain. If you want to use an ancient evil arising from the Illefarn-Netheril war, then leave the Githyanki out of it. Or else be much cleverer about coming up with a connection.

 

(Hint: try tying up the Netheril-Illefarn conflict with the Githyanki-Illithid one. One or both parties of either conflict, or perhaps rogue elements in them, could be in touch with the other. This could play into the creation story of the Guardian. If the Guardian was created by use of Illithid magic, for example, it would make sense that the Sword of Gith was capable of hurting it... and it would even make sense that the Guardian would come back to attack the Githyanki after being cut loose from Illefarn.)

[Stun]

Not so. That is the case with the Inner and Outer planes, which do not overlap with the Prime Material, but not with transitive planes. Transitive planes overlap with other planes. The Demiplane of Shadow, aka the Shadow Plane, as it's done in MotB, is an example of a transitive plane that overlaps with only one plane, i.e., the Prime Material. The Astral and Ethereal planes are transitive planes that overlap with multiple planes – the Ethereal with the Prime Material and Elemental planes, the Astral with the Prime Material and Outer planes.

 

Again: a transitive plane has a point matching every point (x, y, z) in each of the planes with which it overlaps, and possibly many points that do not overlap with any of them. That's what makes them transitive.

The fact that the Astral plane is a transitive plane, does not presuppose an "overlapping" quality. it just means that you can go anywhere from it. ie. a Prime can go to the astral plane, and then from the astral plane, travel to Baator, or Limbo, or whatever. Again, sorta like how an earthling can use outer space to travel to the moon, or mars.... or the other side of the earth.

 

And what exactly is the relevance of this anyway? Is it your claim that NWN2 did planar travel incorrectly? They did NOT.

 

Specifically, the difference is that the former is not possible in the Forgotten Realms cosmology.

I wouldn't say that. An astral projection spell allows anyone to go to the astral plane and then to any other plane from there. Which means yes, the KOS goes to the astral plane, then comes here, from the astral plane. This, of course assumes he's using the standard spell. He may not be.

 

But your other questions are Valid. I don't have an answer to them. I'd have to play the game again and pay attention to what Nonaloth and the various Spirits in the Gem Mine say.

 

 

The very basic idea – that the Illefarn would create a magical WMD drawing directly from the Weave, to defend against the Netherese, and that went Horribly Wrong when the Weave failed due to a magical experiment by the Netherese, causing said WMD to switch to the Shadow Weave after which things go Horribly Wrong – is fine, although jejune.

Haha. This is the only one that I *don't* think is fine. Shar controls the shadow weave, and she's infamous in her jealous protection of it. It is not logical that she has allowed an illfarn guardian to tap into it for melinnia without her stepping in and somehow getting involved. Specifically: by destroying him and then sending swarms of her followers to hunt down all illfarn mages everywhere. Edited June 30, 2013 by Stun

[exodiark]

PrimeJunta did NWN2 stole your bacon or something?

Your hatred sounds personal :D

 

And all i said is said in-game

 

Besides under your heavy scrutiny, every game will fail your test, even games like MOTB )

Edited June 30, 2013 by exodiark

[PrimeJunta]

The fact that the Astral plane is a transitive plane, does not presuppose an "overlapping" quality.

Does too.

 

it just means that you can go anywhere from it. ie. a Prime can go to the astral plane, and then from the astral plane, travel to Baator, or Limbo, or whatever. Again, sorta like how an earthling can use outer space to travel to the moon, or mars.... or the other side of the earth.

Not so. Planes can border on each other, or overlap each other. The Lower Planes, for example, border on each other. You can travel from Baator to the Abyss, in fact, Charon's Ferry Service provides a handy way to do this. Same thing for that ocean made entirely of holy water on the Higher Planes, or the spatial relationship of the Spire (and Sigil) with the Outlands, and of the Outlands with the Outer planes. Yet these aren't transitive planes, because there's no overlap. Overlap is the defining characteristic of transitive planes. That's why you can use astral projection to travel from one place to another on the same prime material plane – the two planes overlap.

 

And what exactly is the relevance of this anyway? Is it your claim that NWN2 did planar travel incorrectly? They did NOT.

The relevance is that the KoS is projecting from the astral plane to the Prime Material, compleat with silver cord. Through a portal. That does not make sense. Astral projection doesn't work that way. You don't have portals when astral projecting to start with; that's kind of the point of astral projection. The physical body is the anchor, the astral body is the projection, not the other way around. The fact that the KoS can do it is completely arbitrary. Whoever wrote it up just made it so and said "because reasons." DM's fiat. Bad.

 

I wouldn't say that. An astral projection spell allows anyone to go to the astral plane and then to any other plane from there. Which means yes, the KOS goes to the astral plane, then comes here, from the astral plane. This, of course assumes he's using the standard spell. He may not be.

Whatever the spell is, the underlying mechanics should be consistent. With the astral projection spell (or any other means of astral projection), the mechanics are as I described above – your astral body no longer overlaps with your physical body, and since your consciousness resides in your astral body anyway, the physical body goes catatonic, with the two connected with the silver cord.

 

Now, if you use the spell to actually travel to another plane, here's what happens. When you arrive at your destination – another PM or an outer plane – (and here's the magical part) – the spell recreates a physical body for you in the new plane, using locally-available materials, and reconnects your silver cord to it, destroying your original body wherever you left it. The newly-created body becomes the anchor instead of your original one. When your astral body syncs with the newly-created physical body (the x, y, z coordinates on both planes overlap perfectly again), you "shift" to your new location. At that point your silver cord has a length of zero again.

 

I.e., you can't project from the astral plane into a physical plane the same way you project from a physical plane into the astral plane, and the silver cord can, by its very nature, never exist on a physical plane. It only comes into existence when your astral body is out of sync with your physical one, and in that case it's an extension of your astral body.

 

Haha. This is the only one that I *don't* think is fine. Shar controls the shadow weave, and she's infamous in her jealous protection of it. It is not logical that she has allowed an illfarn guardian to tap into it for melinnia without her stepping in and somehow getting involved. Specifically: by destroying him and then sending swarms of her followers to hunt down all illfarn mages everywhere.

Yeah, true, I hadn't actually thought of that inconsistency. Rack up another one.

[PrimeJunta]

PrimeJunta did NWN2 stole your bacon or something?

Your hatred sounds personal :D

The funny thing is that I don't actually hate the game. I've replayed it numerous times and enjoyed myself. I just think aspects of it are rubbish, especially when it comes to writing, and moreover it would have been relatively easy not to do it so badly.

 

Besides under your heavy scrutiny, every game will fail your test, even games like MOTB )

Not necessarily. I'm sure it's possible to pick holes into anything; the question is how many holes you can pick, how big they are, why they're there, and how central they are to the underlying premises. MotB and PS:T, for example, are much, much better in this respect.

 

Take Blade Runner. That movie is just chock-full of plot holes, inconsistencies, and illogicalities. However it doesn't matter in the least, as it's not even trying to be consistent. The story is driven by the theme, the characters, and pacing. Consistency never was a priority, and it doesn't have to be.

 

I know and love Blade Runner, and NWN2 is no Blade Runner.

[exodiark]

I see, that's one good way to look at it.

Well, I do agree that NWN2 is the weakest Obsidian game in terms of story. Still, at least it's not Mass Effect 3 bad hahahahahahah )

[PrimeJunta]

Heh.

 

Anyway, that was fun. I'm taking a vacation from the Net starting now, though, so I'll be looking forward to whatever's being discussed here when I get back.

[Stun]

<Stuff>

<sigh>

 

Ok, quick, illustrated user guide to how the planes are actually set up in D&D.

 

 

This is the Multiverse:

 

 

As you can see, from the lower pic, the astral plane is its own entity. It seperates the inner planes from the outer planes. You can go anywhere "directly" from the Astral plane as it touches the first level of all the outer and inner planes.

 

Now look at the upper image. That's the Inner ring. This is where the prime material plane is. But it's also where 7 other planes are, including all the elemental planes (all 4 of them), the positive and negative material planes, and more importantly, the ethereal plane. The Ethereal plane, by the way, forms the outer border of the inner ring. While this *alone* is enough to disprove the notion that the Astral plane is "overlapping" anything, there's also the basic definition of the phrase "prime material", which also disproves the notion that the astral plane "mirrors" anything contained in the Prime material plane (if it did then it would no longer be astral. it would be Prime material physical by definition. And of course, there's the very nature of the Astral plane's qualities itself. Only extremely powerful beings can create ANYTHING physical on the astral plane. If you see a physical structure on the astral plane, then it has been formed by the collective minds of specific astral dwellers through very powerful, high level mental focus, and killing them would make that structure disappear.

 

Therefore, the notion of "overlaps" is nonsense. The astral plane is completely its own entity, it is not related to the prime material plane in any way.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Stun

[Faerunner]

@PrimeJunta: I think NWN2 OC has a lot going for it on the smaller scale. I think when you just judge it based on its own merits, it has things to admire. I personally still love the dry, witty, sarcastic, sardonic, self-depracating sense of humor. The dialogue is humorous and mostly flows nicely. The characters indeed had their own voices and their interactions with each other were rather realistic (too much at times, what with all the bickering) and memorable (insult exchange at the Flagon, anyone?). The voice-acting was great and I personally think a lot of VAs gave their characters more depth and personality than was written on paper (especially for Sand, Bishop, and Neeshka).

 

The Trial sequence at the start of the second act was genius. The BioWare staff seemed to like it too (unless they thought of it first) since the Trial against Loghain sequence Dragon Age: Origins played out similarly. Learning the difficulties of running a castle was also creative. Once again, the idea was good enough to copy because every time I see DA fans gush about how they'll get to run their own castle in Inquisition, I just think "NWN2 did it first."

 

I also really liked the the ideas it tried to present. Questioning what makes a hero, what makes a villain, and how different are they when you examine their origins and methods more closely? How much it sucks to be a hero in the long run because you live to see your loved ones die, become tired/bitter/scarred, or straight up become a villain in the long run was a very interesting theme to examine in a

standard fantasy game. Again, they could have gone into more depth, but if you judge it by its own merit, it was rather good.

 

EDIT: With that said, yeah, it has its problems. Story is simple. Adventures is linear. Battles are mostly repetitive. Quests are mostly "go over there and kill/fetch/rescue." My personal peeve is the characters are mostly standard fantasy stereotypes. A few of them have some variations (like Bishop the hostile ranger), but mostly they're just textbook examples of their D&D archetypes. The game could have gone further with its theme. It's not great and I don't want another game exactly like it, but I think it has great things about it that are worth repeating. (Like that lovely sense of humor.)

Edited June 30, 2013 by Faerunner