Combat Lore

[TRX850]

What if player characters remember which damage types are effective vs enemies, so you don't have to?

 

Part of becoming a competent fantasy roleplayer is memorizing subtle details, but in the heat of battle, sometimes even the best of us forget which damage type (including elemental damage) works, or doesn't work, against certain monsters and armour.

 

Visual clues often help, e.g. regular skeletons succumb to bludgeoning weapons more than slashing/stabbing blades. Fire elementals vulnerable to cold attacks, and so on.

 

But what about those aberrant, shadowed, or magical creatures that have very specific and not always intuitive immunities?

 

The first time the party encounters a new enemy type, they should have to discover what works, and what doesn't, by trial and error. Provided there is text and/or combat dialogue to inform the player when certain damage types aren't working (BG/IWD), it should prompt the player to try something else until an effective type is known, then that knowledge is stored in a combat lore table.

 

As the party battle their way through a range of enemies, there could be a hotkey or right-click option (similar to NWN) that lists known vulnerabilities and immunities.

 

Perhaps if your party included a Bard or a character with other types of creature lore, certain damage types might already be known.

 

Normally I would keep a list on a notepad and refer to that, so it's in no way an exploit. All that's happening is it's moving player notes from paper into a kind of in-game combat journal.

 

 

Taking the idea one step further, there could be a separate gallery of vanquished foes with a summary of known creature lore under each one. Challenge rating, special attacks, number of kills etc. It could be something to reflect on while sitting around the campfire and planning your next battle.

 

It's an idea.

[AGX-17]

Well, aside from the fact that it's not "lore," (lore would be something like the history of a given fighting style or school, not what weapon is good against what type of armor or what element of magic is the rock to an enemy's scissors,) aren't you just suggesting the game play itself to some degree?

[TRX850]

More an ease-of-use option. Just something to do away with making mental/paper notes and simply display them in-game if you mouseover or right-click on an enemy type that your party has previous combat knowledge of. "Combat Lore" was a quick description of it, I admit. Perhaps a more appropriate term would fit.

 

I often find that while playing games like the Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale series', creatures like slimes and jellies react differently to fire or electricity, and sometimes I forget which way round it is. Or maybe there are certain creatures with magic resistance or damage resistance, and you can waste time (and spells) by repeating a poor strategy. If the player characters know what worked in the past, they should be able to call on that experience, rather than just the player.

[PrimeJunta]

No. Bad idea. Kill it. With fire. That is the correct damage type. But not automagically.

[AGX-17]

More an ease-of-use option. Just something to do away with making mental/paper notes and simply display them in-game if you mouseover or right-click on an enemy type that your party has previous combat knowledge of. "Combat Lore" was a quick description of it, I admit. Perhaps a more appropriate term would fit.

 

I often find that while playing games like the Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale series', creatures like slimes and jellies react differently to fire or electricity, and sometimes I forget which way round it is. Or maybe there are certain creatures with magic resistance or damage resistance, and you can waste time (and spells) by repeating a poor strategy. If the player characters know what worked in the past, they should be able to call on that experience, rather than just the player.

 

 

....So, yes, you are saying the game should play itself to a certain degree. If you are "repeating a poor strategy" it's your fault for formulating a poor strategy and persisting in its use despite its obvious failure. Generally when engaging in the trial and error method, you make changes to your approach each time it fails until you eventually come to one that works.

Edited January 2, 2013 by AGX-17

[Valsuelm]

A Monster Lore skill wouldn't be a bad idea at all. Other games (Palladium in particular) employ many Lore skills. If a character has such a skill there is a chance he will know of a Monster's weakness. Alternatively or in addition combat experience with particular Monster types may yield info such as weaknesses on a given creature.

 

The actions should be entirely determined by the player and nothing should be automatic. The information however from such a skill would indeed be useful and a nice addition to the game methinks.

[wanderon]

I definately agree that making these combat choices automatic is a bad idea and that any information the player is able to discern about monsters strengths or weaknesses would need to be manually implemented by the player at each encounter if he chose to do so.

 

Access to monster "lore" through a skill set or special class perks (ranger/druid?) would be fine I think.

[PrimeJunta]

Being able to find out information about monsters and have that information appear in a bestiary is great. Being able to add notes to the bestiary yourself is also great. Having the information appear there automagically just after encountering a critter... not. It's the difference between player agency and handholding. Same thing as with a quest log that records conversations and information discovered, and a quest marker that walks you where you need to go.

[TRX850]

It wouldn't need to display everything about an enemy after a single encounter. It could build on the info over time. Or maybe by observing combat text and/or dialogue, you (the player) can make side notes about what works and what doesn't with certain creatures, like golems for example, and enter them in a creature journal if you wish. So the next time you encounter the same creature type, you could right-click and read your notes. It's just moving the notes from paper to in-game. That's one method.

 

If the game handled it itself, it could still build up info over time, i.e. defeat X number of Troll Spiders (or a certain XP worth) and provided you discovered during combat that fire or acid worked well, but say, lightning or stabbing weapons did not, then it may fill in some blanks for you.

 

I agree there should be no handholding. That wasn't the point of the suggestion. Just keeping player notes in a meaningful in-game journal.

 

NWN has a right-click option that allows the player to view info on enemies and allies alike. A lot of that info is too much I think. If they used something like this, but started blank and built up over time, it would make more sense.

 

In some ways it's a bit like having to identify magic items. There's a process involved to learn about an item, albeit a one-step and immediate process. But learning monster's strengths and weaknesses is something every adventurer should learn over time I think. It would just be handy to see it recorded in an easy-to-retrieve popup or tool tip.

[Lephys]

I think the Witcher 2 did this. It wasn't really a tooltip, but you could look up creature info in your journal after having fought several of a creature, or you could purchase books that informed you about the creatures. I think each creature had 3 levels of knowledge. They simply showed up in your journal as descriptive paragraphs about behavior, weaknesses (i.e. "This thing will not succumb to bleeding damage due to its physiology"). It was pretty nice, although pretty basic. Sometimes it affected quests and such.

 

Another possible implementation would be for your character to gain bonuses against certain creatures after enough direct combat experience with them. You could simplify it to slayings, or you could break it up into categories. It would be something that would make sense with the whole "Your character would obviously gain some progressive knowledge in dealing with this particular creature" notion. An example would be that one character may have fought 10 bears, and maybe he gains a +5% evasion when fighting bears, because he's dealt with their movements and such so many times. And it's not like bears are out there coming up with crazy different strategies and martial arts of their own, so their patterns are going to pretty much rely on instinct and bear DNA, and thus will remain fairly constant. Or maybe your Wizard learns to deal more magic damage against Shadow Fiends or something, after pelting them with so many spells and noticing certain places to aim/certain focuses of the spell. *shrug*

 

That said, I'm all for things it's expected for the player to learn via your character's experience being handily stored by your character, rather than having to be constantly kept track of by you. It's similar to when I find some door I know I can't get into (and will have to come back to) in some game, but I have NO way of marking that on a map. The worst is when you go out of town for a week or so, and you come back, load your game and say "Wait... where was that rune I saw?" or "I can't remember if axes or spears were extra effective against these guys!". Nothing is really gained by the player's ability to forget such information, while you'd expect the characters to know better (i.e. just record that info somewhere, as it relates to the player's ability to access it.)

[TRX850]

All excellent points Lephys. That "coming back to the game after a week" thing is what affects me the most. Having the knowledge stored in a meaningful way is vital.

 

D&D 4e tries to address creature lore bonuses depending on class and creature type, although I've never actually played a 4e game.