About Ciphers..

[Alexjh]

While I disagree with the perception of psionics are as purely sci-fi concept,

 

I never said that. I said that it was MORE of a sci-fi concept, and that it often felt out of place in (Medieval) Fantasy settings.

 

equally when psionic (of the trained varieties, not species which possess it naturally) are shoehorned into a world already containing several other flavours of magic, it can feel a bit.... overloaded as a setting, particularly as quite often, unlike the others magics, they aren't given a clear place in the world.

 

THAT was the point I was trying to make, especially in my third post.

Maybe I wasn't very clear. It can be a bit tricky to debate in a language that isn't your mother tongue.

 

Sorry if I was repeating you at all, I literally did a very quick skim of the thread before writing it up.

 

The main thing I'm slightly iffy about with the concept of psionics as a playable class is that to be honest, fighting in pitched battles is surely the least interesting thing for one to be doing. I can imagine them as spies or counter-spies easily, or them being employed to protect people from other psionics. Perhaps even be sent into town to use their powers to demoralize a city due to be captured, but in a pitched battle they just don't quite fit.

 

The idea of a mind blast seems like it should be either overpowered (what could be more dangerous than knocking out a load of people with a thought?) or underpowered (everyone making sure they have good will saves) and they run the risk of overlapping with wizards and bards/chanters.

 

For an example of what I mean, look at the X-men - there's at least 7 or so powerful psychics who are regularly members, so why isn't every fight over before it even begins? Even weirder, Psylocke with her psychic knives is particularly silly - if you've got a power which can take down foes instantly from a distance, why are you making yourself vulnerable to go and psy-knife them? You can blast them in the mind several rooms away!

[Umberlin]

I never said that. I said that it was MORE of a sci-fi concept,

 

It's really not, it's been too long standing, literally decades, for it to be otherwise.

 

and that it often felt out of place in (Medieval) Fantasy settings.

 

It really doesn't. As far back as the old Wizardry games in the 80s, and prior, to that, there are been what are, essentially, 'mental mages' in cRPGs, and far, far prior to that 80s period even in Books and Films of pure fantasy fare. Not even counting the sci-fi/fantasy mixtures across various forms of entertainment.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm personally a big fan of New Weird and Slipstream. I just think that if you're to use stuff like psionics in Fantasy, it can't just be something that's thrown in there as an afterthought which is often the case (like in most D&D settings - Dark Sun being the only exception that I can think of).

 

Where do you get the impression it's been thrown in as an afterthought in this case? Do we have some reason to think all of Obsidian's writers, who've done great work over several games, have suddenly, and simultaneously, taken massive blows to the head rendering them dribbling simpletons? Even your note about it being an afterthought in D&D seems off, when, really, there's are entire handbook dedicated to Psionics alone, I'll grant you it's only been out for a couple of years over a decade . . . but still.

 

It's fantasy, sure, and obviously high fantasy at that but it's a fantasy world where reincarnation and the soul are big deals, that's a quote from Obsidian themselves. What's important to note there is that their building up the rules of their world from the ground up. The Cipher, through the power of their minds, according to the information we have so far, is able to manipulate their soul and the souls of others. They're backing them with lore, and explanation, and obviously there's more to come. What seems an afterthought here?

 

-

 

Anyways, be it manipulating a person in dialogue or assaulting an enemy with a barrage of mental blasts, whatever it is Obsidian decides to do, my concern is the quality of what is there, whatever the end decision. Heck, they can go and give the Cipher both for all I care. In the end I have no real reason to doubt Obsidian from perspectives of story when it comes to characters, dialogues, the world and its lore/history. Story and lore were never their weak point.

 

I'd be more worried about bugs. I love Obsidian and Black Isle games, despite the bugs, but bugs are quite the constant. When it comes to writing the danger isn't things being thrown in randomly, or as an afterthought, when it comes to Obsidian. I more often see evidence that they over think their writing or have too many ideas, and can't fit them all in. Quite a different problem really.

[Agelastos]

The point is moot anyway. Ciphers aren't psions, even if they'll probably fill the same niche.

[Somna]

It'll be interesting if Cipher magic is in the form of encrypting and decrypting information, or creating some sort of mathe-magical formula and putting in the user as the variable.

[Umberlin]

The point is moot anyway. Ciphers aren't psions, even if they'll probably fill the same niche.

 

In the sense that they are not exactly the same thing, true, but, as you said, like the D&D Psionic, they fill what is essentially the 'mind mage' place in various Fantasy game repertoires. Their description doesn't really leave any other possibility. The role is described using the setting's internal logic of souls, in the form of soul manipulation through mental prowess, but at the end of the day they're still using their exceptional minds to do the fantastic.

 

So the point isn't moot so much as you've shifted away from it intoto semantics and hair splitting, as a manner of dismissal.

[Agelastos]

The point is moot anyway. Ciphers aren't psions, even if they'll probably fill the same niche.

 

In the sense that they are not exactly the same thing, true, but, as you said, like the D&D Psionic, they fill what is essentially the 'mind mage' place in various Fantasy game repertoires. Their description doesn't really leave any other possibility. The role is described using the setting's internal logic of souls, in the form of soul manipulation through mental prowess, but at the end of the day they're still using their exceptional minds to do the fantastic.

 

So the point isn't moot so much as you've shifted away from it intoto semantics and hair splitting, as a manner of dismissal.

 

The fact that Ciphers manipulate souls, and all magic in P.E. is soul-based, makes all the difference in the world to me.

That means it's just another kind of magic. It doesn't draw from a completely different source.

I didn't mean to be dismissive, but I've barely slept in 72 hours so I don't have the energy to argue. Especially since this isn't even my native language and I have to struggle with pretty much every post.

 

I don't like psionics in Medieval Fantasy games. That's my opinion. You have a differing opinion. That's fine. I don't see why it has to turn into a huge argument.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Agelastos

[morrow1nd]

if only Ciphers would some kind of ''Pazio : Psionics Unleashed '' psion :'( ..

 

I should've narrowed that poll instead of giving fair deal of options

Edited November 20, 2012 by morrow1nd

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Has there been any word what exactly Ciphers are?

[SGray]

mages in DnD were anything but balanced and at higher levels were close to demi-gods compared to other classes...

Rly? Epic lvl warrior with 10 attacks per round? Nearly invincible monks or unhittable and shadow-dancing rogues, using any magic protection from items? More dependent on loot - yes. Much weaker? - hardly so.

[Doppelschwert]

mages in DnD were anything but balanced and at higher levels were close to demi-gods compared to other classes...

Rly? Epic lvl warrior with 10 attacks per round? Nearly invincible monks or unhittable and shadow-dancing rogues, using any magic protection from items? More dependent on loot - yes. Much weaker? - hardly so.

 

Which edition are you talking? In 3.X edition, the discrepancy between the magical classes and the rest just grows with levels.

[SGray]

Had BGs and NwNs in mind. Take a look at power PvP NWN(1 or 2, doesn't matter) builds. Are they solely mages?

[Doppelschwert]

I never was much into PvP in NWN, so I don't know if you're referring to those munchkins builds, but if you are, those most often didn't made any sense from a roleplaying point of view.

 

You can offset some of the differences with equipment of course, but I do think its a major advantage if you are independent of equipment (which is the case with mages in these games). I think DnD cares way to much about buffs from magic wielders.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Doppelschwert

[SGray]

I meant that if you understand well how the mechanics work - any class could be demi-god like killing machine, not much less than other. And magic users are not so hard to counter if you know what you are doing. Newer used any of not mine builds in my playthroughs, but such builds show maximum potentials of a class, which are equal.

It's a major advantage if you are more independent of equipment, indeed. But it's also a major advantage if you are independent from rest and buffing yourself each time.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I never was much into PvP in NWN, so I don't know if you're referring to those munchkins builds, but if you are, those most often didn't made any sense from a roleplaying point of view.

 

Why? If the player creates a character design that meshes with a "munchkin" build, then it does make sense from a role-playing point of view.

 

You can offset some of the differences with equipment of course, but I do think its a major advantage if you are independent of equipment (which is the case with mages in these games). I think DnD cares way to much about buffs from magic wielders.

 

3.xE/Pathfinder gave mages an Achilles heel with Concentration though. If a mage is damaged at all, the DC for the concentration check goes up, and if the mage fails that, then no spell. Also with spells per day, after a mage(wizard or sorcerer in this case) has little effectiveness in combat and very little ability to survive without the aid of magic items.

[Doppelschwert]

I agree that every class should be equally competent when taken to extremes, but there should still be some balance when you're just casually playing the game.

 

I never was much into PvP in NWN, so I don't know if you're referring to those munchkins builds, but if you are, those most often didn't made any sense from a roleplaying point of view.

 

Why? If the player creates a character design that meshes with a "munchkin" build, then it does make sense from a role-playing point of view.

 

Most character designs are just arbitrary and make no sense if you want to justify those builds. For example:

http://nwn2.wikia.co...),Sor(4),Clr(5)

I especially like the following where the alignment has to change during character development:

http://nwn2.wikia.co...0,_Pal_2,_Wlk_1

 

That is pure powergaming and has nothing to do with any plausible character concept at all.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Most character designs are just arbitrary and make no sense if you want to justify those builds. For example:

http://nwn2.wikia.co...),Sor(4),Clr(5)

 

How is the personality/background of a character arbitrary? It informs every choice that the PC makes throughout the game.

 

I especially like the following where the alignment has to change during character development:

http://nwn2.wikia.co...0,_Pal_2,_Wlk_1

 

Fallen Paladin? Reformed Villain? It isn't uncommon for a character's alignment to shift in D&D or for them to choose a new path after said change.

 

That is pure powergaming and has nothing to do with any plausible character concept at all.

 

It all depends on the player. If when designing the character they feel that Monk/Sorcerer/Cleric/Dragon Disciple is a good fit for that character, then it works for that character.

[Doppelschwert]

Most character designs are just arbitrary and make no sense if you want to justify those builds. For example:

http://nwn2.wikia.co...),Sor(4),Clr(5)

 

How is the personality/background of a character arbitrary? It informs every choice that the PC makes throughout the game.

 

I especially like the following where the alignment has to change during character development:

http://nwn2.wikia.co...0,_Pal_2,_Wlk_1

 

Fallen Paladin? Reformed Villain? It isn't uncommon for a character's alignment to shift in D&D or for them to choose a new path after said change.

 

That is pure powergaming and has nothing to do with any plausible character concept at all.

 

It all depends on the player. If when designing the character they feel that Monk/Sorcerer/Cleric/Dragon Disciple is a good fit for that character, then it works for that character.

 

Of course you can play such characters and think about ways to make them work. I don't have a problem with that, people can do that - I just think its hypocritical to pretend the character is this way because that would be an interesting character to play instead of the powergaming. To me, original roleplaying is choosing a role and then modelling the character. Powergaming is the other way around: Modelling the character for powergaming and come up with a story to justify this.

 

There also is an build that uses paladin as well as blackguard levels for a stacking save bonus. I doubt that player would still play this combination for roleplaying purposes if fallen paladins were properly implemented and they'd lose that save bonus...

Edited November 22, 2012 by Doppelschwert

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Of course you can play such characters and think about ways to make them work. I don't have a problem with that, people can do that - I just think its hypocritical to pretend the character is this way because that would be an interesting character to play instead of the powergaming. To me, original roleplaying is choosing a role and then modelling the character. Powergaming is the other way around: Modelling the character for powergaming and come up with a story to justify this.

 

I always build the class around the character I design. I understand that quite a few people do powergame(I never do), I just think that assuming that all "munchkin" builds spring from powergaming is assuming too much about every player who plays them.

 

There also is an build that uses paladin as well as blackguard levels for a stacking save bonus. I doubt that player would still play this combination for roleplaying purposes if fallen paladins were properly implemented and they'd lose that save bonus...

 

Paladins really should lose their abilities when they stop being Paladins, I agree. I don't know why this was't implemented in NWN(2) and was disappointed it wasn't. However I would definitely play a fallen Paladin who became a Blackguard. It seems to be a natural route for a corrupted champion to go on.

Edited November 22, 2012 by KaineParker

[Doppelschwert]

Of course you can play such characters and think about ways to make them work. I don't have a problem with that, people can do that - I just think its hypocritical to pretend the character is this way because that would be an interesting character to play instead of the powergaming. To me, original roleplaying is choosing a role and then modelling the character. Powergaming is the other way around: Modelling the character for powergaming and come up with a story to justify this.

 

I always build the class around the character I design. I understand that quite a few people do powergame(I never do), I just think that assuming that all "munchkin" builds spring from powergaming is assuming too much about every player who plays them.

 

There also is an build that uses paladin as well as blackguard levels for a stacking save bonus. I doubt that player would still play this combination for roleplaying purposes if fallen paladins were properly implemented and they'd lose that save bonus...

 

Paladins really should lose their abilities when they stop being Paladins, I agree. I don't know why this was't implemented in NWN(2) and was disappointed it wasn't. However I would definitely play a fallen Paladin who became a Blackguard. It seems to be a natural route for a corrupted champion to go on.

 

Ok, then we agree on this. I didn't want to imply that everyone playing munchkin builds only does it for powergaming, its just hard to believe that for certain builds the motivation lies in characterisation.

 

I also don't powergame and build my characters around the concepts I design, and the combination of paladin / blackguard is something I played before and certainly liked, although not taken to such munchkin extremes.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Ok, then we agree on this. I didn't want to imply that everyone playing munchkin builds only does it for powergaming, its just hard to believe that for certain builds the motivation lies in characterisation.

 

I also don't powergame and build my characters around the concepts I design, and the combination of paladin / blackguard is something I played before and certainly liked, although not taken to such munchkin extremes.

 

Agree, but frankly I couldn't care less about what powergamers do. I think that the system should be designed to allow the most freedom for developing each character how the player sees fit.

[NerdBoner]

mages in DnD were anything but balanced and at higher levels were close to demi-gods compared to other classes...

Rly? Epic lvl warrior with 10 attacks per round? Nearly invincible monks or unhittable and shadow-dancing rogues, using any magic protection from items? More dependent on loot - yes. Much weaker? - hardly so.

hell in BG even with 10 attacks per round with whirlwind attack the fighter was still severely underpowered compared to a mage/sorc...

 

there is a mid level spell called immunity to magic weapons that shuts down anything a fighter can dish out...after that its all about time stop, improved alactrity, Wish, horrid wilting, imprison, maze...the list goes on and on.

 

fighters, plain and simply suck against mages in BG.

 

The true mage killers are rogues, especially at higher levels. One backstab from a hidden rogue can typically end a mage in one hit before he gets a single spell off, more so if his weapon is poisoned...if that fails just lure him into preset traps and he's toast.

 

 

once rogues get epic level traps EVERY class is f*cked...time trap, assassination (preferably with dual wielding) and a haste potion is all that's needed. The rogue may be all about micro-management, but if done correctly he is unstoppable.

 

I freaking solo'd the ToB ascension mod on highest difficulty with an assassin, was easy peezy.

[SGray]

hell in BG even with 10 attacks per round with whirlwind attack the fighter was still severely underpowered compared to a mage/sorc...

 

there is a mid level spell called immunity to magic weapons that shuts down anything a fighter can dish out...

Ever tried a crossbow with a whirlwind, with different arrows? Some crossbows deal damage by additional effects to fully buffed demilich neglecting in-born 5+ immunity and magic weapon immunity, with wrong arrows even.

Mage couldn't cast anything significant under such barrage. Paralyzing catana is another interesting thing. Do not forget invisibility potions also )

 

If you got caught in time stop flatfooted - yep, it's bad, but for warrior with 100+% or much more magic resist - not necessary deadly. You'll spend half of your time debuffing his magic resistance even if you had your sequencers and contingencies charged, and still wouldn't drain his hp pool most of the time (horrid wilting has not so hard save, you know, so either debuff for saving throws also, or cast at half damage, further it deals magic damage wich could be further halved by potion and nullified by potion and belt)

Maze? So what? On success - he'll get to you slightly later, with your spells already drained.

Imprison? - cheesy one, but still - try to imprison raging berserker, you would be surprised )

Wish? - you mean greater wish with clones and replenishing your spells? - you wouldn't have time for it in fight, and it isn't absolutely reliable thing. Or cast wish solely in hope of another time stop? - bad idea. All other effects are irrelevant, imo.

 

And, in the end - If he survived that - you're screwed. You have time until your debuffs fade, and he is 100% magic resistant again, and you have little to no spells spells to debuff him again.

 

fighters, plain and simply suck against mages in BG.

Rly?

 

once rogues get epic level traps EVERY class is f*cked...

Not necessary so again )

 

I freaking solo'd the ToB ascension mod on highest difficulty with an assassin, was easy peezy.

Done so with wizard (cheesy wild mage), my brother done so with warrior/berserker (potions heavy).

[morrow1nd]

Errhmm guys.. How about sharing your opinions with us about the Cipher class ?

[Doppelschwert]

Maybe you should explain how psionics work. I've only seen them in a NWN mod where they have been existing mage spells with a pointsystem like the traditional mp-system. Either theres more to that, or giving them psionics sounds like a wizard clone. I'll glady state my opinion on that, as soon as I know what to talk about.

[TMTVL]

They said the Cypher class is gonna be kida like Psionics in D&D. Too bad, 'cause I got visions of Kinetic Cypher as an IE kinda game. Anyway, there's been some fun stuff with D&D Psionics, but mainly due to it being broken like all buggery when I played it back in the day. I preferred Dragonfire Disciple, but whatever.

 

If it is Psionics, I'd like if it had some of the Wizardry 8 type mindreading and charm and stuff.