Some issues with the timed-lockout spell-casting system

[harhar!]

I like the aspect of having to manage your ressources from rest to rest, so that you don't just spam out your high tier spells at everything. Here's a problem I see if I have understood the system correctly: What if I have 1 first level spell over after a fight? Can I then in the next fight only use 1 level 1 spell and have to wait for it to recharge? That seems bad.

 

Maybe it should be more like this: You can use a fixed amount of spells in a certain level/wisdom/int/whateva per spelllevel and you get every spell back after the fight and additionally for high level spells you use up res that you gain by resting. Might be problematic when facing tough guys though... Gotta test it out to say for sure I guess.

Edited October 13, 2012 by harhar!

[Hormalakh]

I like the aspect of having to manage your ressources from rest to rest, so that you don't just spam out your high tier spells at everything. Here's a problem I see if I have understood the system correctly: What if I have 1 first level spell over after a fight? Can I then in the next fight only use 1 level 1 spell and have to wait for it to recharge? That seems bad.

 

No. The way I invisioned it was a little different.

 

Say you're a level 5 mage. You get 3 level 1 spells, 2 level 2 spells, and 1 level 3 spell. In your codex, you have:

 

Level 1:

Magic Missile

Grease

Identify

Knock

Ghost Armor

Bless

 

Level 2:

Blind

Fear

Flame Arrow

Acid Arrow

 

Level 3:

Fireball

Lightning bolt.

 

In between rests, you have to pick out only 3 level 1 spells, 2 level 2 spells, and 1 level 3 spells to reuse. The system otherwise works as before with Mana or endurance or whatever (as you cast a spell it reduces your mana or endurance and it continues to charge when not casting regardless of what spell you cast). If you need to use a level 1,2, or 3 spell that you haven't "memorized" then casting that spell costs more mana/endurance than it would otherwise cost. That way, you actually have to consider what spells you need before you actually need them and it becomes a tactical challenge.

 

If you're in the fire cave and you always have the choice between lightning bolt and fireball, there's no tactical skill involved with choosing lightning bolt over fireball. If however, you knew ahead of time (through proper information gathering for example) that it was a fire cave, well then before you rest at the tavern for the evening and start your journey to the cave, you decide to memorize lightning bolt. You could use fireball for that pack of ice memphits on the way to the cave. But you can get off only 2 fireballs before you're drained. Otherwise you'd have had maybe 4 or 5 lightning bolts before you're drained.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Hormalakh

[harhar!]

I like the aspect of having to manage your ressources from rest to rest, so that you don't just spam out your high tier spells at everything. Here's a problem I see if I have understood the system correctly: What if I have 1 first level spell over after a fight? Can I then in the next fight only use 1 level 1 spell and have to wait for it to recharge? That seems bad.

 

No. The way I invisioned it was a little different.

 

Say you're a level 5 mage. You get 3 level 1 spells, 2 level 2 spells, and 1 level 3 spell. In your codex, you have:

 

Level 1:

Magic Missile

Grease

Identify

Knock

Ghost Armor

Bless

 

Level 2:

Blind

Fear

Flame Arrow

Acid Arrow

 

Level 3:

Fireball

Lightning bolt.

 

In between rests, you have to pick out only 3 level 1 spells, 2 level 2 spells, and 1 level 3 spells to as to reuse. The system otherwise works as before with Mana or endurance or whatever. If you need to use a level 1 spell that you haven't "memorized" then casting that spell costs more mana than it would otherwise cost. That way, you actually have to consider what spells you need before you actually need them.

 

But what if I use 2 level 1 spells in combat and have 1 left. The cooldown will only start when I fire the last spell, so that it is disadvantegous for me to have a low number of spells per level left. I don't see why that would be a good thing.

[Hormalakh]

snip ...

 

But what if I use 2 level 1 spells in combat and have 1 left. The cooldown will only start when I fire the last spell, so that it is disadvantegous for me to have a low number of spells per level left. I don't see why that would be a good thing.

 

Well, then I guess we change the mechanic. I'm not a big fan of the cooldown method that starts until after you've used your last spell. The way I see it, at a particular level (e.g. level 3 spells) you lose mana/endurance for level 3 faster or slower depending on whether you used Lightning bolt or fireball, but always gain mana/endurance back at that particular level at a constant rate. It's always refilling your endurance and mana constantly.

 

I'm trying to think of a good way to describe this. I guess if you've ever played Halo it might be easier to understand. When you get shot in halo, you start losing your armor at a set rate, but after a second where your armor doesn't get hit, it will automatically start to recharge. Get hit with a stronger gun, your armor goes down quicker; weaker gun is slower. Once your armor is completely gone, you really are vulnerable and it usually takes a few seconds longer for your armor to start recharging than it otherwise would if the armor was partially full.

 

Gosh, it's really hard to explain. Anyone else want to give it a shot?

[Kamos]

From the videos I think the answer is that they want to make the mage more like a fighter or a thief instead of having special limitations. They'll be able to use their spells like how a fighter uses his regular attack or special abilities without having to use a rest system.

 

Honestly, I think giving mages a "basic magic attack" turns magic into fireworks. I rather enjoy the idea that fighters fight, and that magic is spectacular, but not constant. I also think magic needs to have risks, or some kind of trade off.

 

In the "vancian" style of magic, this trade off is that you need to rest. Resting is dangerous, you can't just take a nap in dungeons. In old school RPGs you also have to consider limited supplies of food and lamp oil, you can't just rest every single time you cast a fireball to take out some kobolds. Of course, many cRPGs never got this right, and in the end the whole thing got streamlined. It was probably perceived to be busywork.

 

So, anyway. I think they should first decide how magic works, and then try to represent it through the gameplay mechanic. Not the other way around..

 

There are many interesting styles of magic, and honestly, I'd like to see PE tackle one. Maybe plants die when you cast magic, and you need to find the right spot to be able to use it. Maybe you age if you exert yourself too much. Maybe you need rare spell components that you have to hunt down, travelling far and wide. Maybe you need to negotiate with higher beings, like Elric of Melnibolné did. Maybe magic causes "corruption" and you grow an extra finger if things go awry. Maybe weird things happen around you if you break the fabric of reality too much (lovecraftian tentacles!).

[Hormalakh]

The other issue that I have kept hearing is that fighters can always swing their swords without any limitations so why can't wizards? The difference I think is this: a sword usually only deals damage of some kind it is a single tool, whereas magic is a whole toolbox in itself. You can do all sorts of different kinds of things with magic and a lot of the magic deals much higher amounts of damage than a sword could. If my sword had the AOE damage of a fireball, then yeah I'd agree. But most of the time, especially in older games (like BG2) I would be terrified of mages (with the correct AI mod) who had a spell-list, regardless of how limited it was, compared to the big hulky fighter.