Randomized dungeons / environments / smart monsters ...

[Rabain]

I'd much prefer if the mega dungeon had some structure to it instead of random levels. From the concept art it would seem it gets more primitive or aged as the levels go down, I like that idea. First few levels are stone, then maybe a catacomb, then a cave system, then some things lair, then some ancient races ruins etc.

[Silver6986]

Sorry OP, but I am also in favour of keeping randomisation to a minimum in PE, so at most I like the ideas others have already mentioned, such as when moving across the map from one location to the next or the types of monsters you might face should you be inrerrupted whilst resting.

 

Lets look at randomisation and why this mechanic would work in some instances, for example Torchlight or Diablo (I have no direct comprehension of Torthlight game mechanics other then what I have read, whereas I grew up playing the Diablo games and as of now have a couple hundred hours notched in D3) compared to the BG series (I grew up on BG 1 & 2, played them extensively, over 30 full playthroughs of original BG + Exp).

 

Now the reality is that the devs of PE are using the Infinity Engine games kind of like reference points (which includes the BG series of games), these games where VERY heavy on story (except for IWD of course), and we're designed with this in mind. But they were also designed around combat mechanics where you have a party of up to six members and you could face all manner of different enemy combinations that are tactically different from say the endless sprawl of trash mobs and elites packs found in Diablo. Both Diablo and Torchlight are designed from the ground up with randomisation front and centre with a slight flavour story and that's it, this extends through to gear and how to acquire it.

 

Fundamentally they are completely different games and for me are fun for completely different reasons. Lets leave this for the dungeon crawling, endless loot grind type game, of which PE is not.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Liquid_Silver11

[Silver6986]

I'd much prefer if the mega dungeon had some structure to it instead of random levels. From the concept art it would seem it gets more primitive or aged as the levels go down, I like that idea. First few levels are stone, then maybe a catacomb, then a cave system, then some things lair, then some ancient races ruins etc.

 

Interestingly what you describe sounds almost exactly like the dungeon from the original Diablo, just swap out 'ancient ruins' for a modified version of Hell and there you have it.

[moridin84]

I'd much prefer if the mega dungeon had some structure to it instead of random levels. From the concept art it would seem it gets more primitive or aged as the levels go down, I like that idea. First few levels are stone, then maybe a catacomb, then a cave system, then some things lair, then some ancient races ruins etc.

Those are just 'themes' for levels. Randomization would just be changing around the rooms, corridors and encounters.

 

Having the mega dungeon randomized is probably a good idea.

[Frenetic Pony]

Randomization is fantastic! In certain terms.

 

Randomized environments are bad, generally its true. Perhaps with the next console generation, a game with incredibly smart programmers dedicated to great random environments would have enough horespower available to make great randomized environments. Minecraft, since it has no particular geometry constraints in gameplay terms, wouldn't be minecraft without randomized environments. Project Eternity is neither of these.

 

But! But there can be great randomization still. In fact it should be a key ingredient! Exact enemy placement and type should certainly be randomized for a lot of enemy encounters. There should be zones, where enemies X will spawn within. It could be a couple giant spiders, one really big giant spider and a few smaller ones, a horde of tiny giant spiders, or etc. Thus you never know exactly what you're getting, it's always something of a surprise.

 

Heck, even some boss types could be randomized, and should be if possible! Imagine if the boss giant spider alternatively had a devestating charge attack that knocked you over, or alternatively spawned a horde of spider periodically, or alternatively were two big spiders with powerful poison attacks! You'd go in on a replay, instead of knowing what your getting you'd have to be prepared for a lot more.

 

Secondly, loot can and definitively should be randomised. You should never know exactly what your getting out of a chest or an enemy or etc. The Elderscrolls has used this to great effect for quite a while. But what the loot actually is can be randomised as well. The stats and enchantments and etc. can all be randomised without terrible trouble on that new magic sword or ring you found; and to great effect such as in Borderlands and Diablo.

 

Moving on to other randomization possibilities, randomized encounters can be very effective. Just take almost any roguelike, (FTL is my favorite) an increasingly broader and popular genre, for examples of great randomized encounters. Say you're travelling from one area to another, and you're popped into an area designed for a randomized encounter. You get starting scenario X, which is someone coming up to you and screaming "help, oh gods help my friend is in trouble!" You can then follow if you want, and then get either response to this Y or Z. Y being you save the friend from monsters, Z being it's an ambush!

 

Randomisation works really well in a lot of games, it's simply that you need the time and effort to apply the right type of randomization to the right type of game.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Frenetic Pony

[BSoda]

Unless it's for something like gambling mini-games:

 

random = boring

[kenup]

Randomization is not as good as it might sound, at least for non roguelikes. It reduces player choices and actual consequences, and even re-playability.

 

Prime example of story randomization is the radiant quest system in Skyrim. Every radiant quest is the same, and even important sounding tasks fall short when there is randomization partly because choices are removed to make up for the lack of consistency.

 

All I'm going to say about random loot and monsters: level scaling. The only good random.... thing, is semi-random encounters, when traversing the map/wilds.

 

But generally, everything is made much more beautiful, immersive, replayable and enjoyable when hand crafted. I understand if there is absolute need for some randomization, but most examples of it in "RPGs", reeks of laziness.

Edited October 8, 2012 by kenup

[jivex5k]

I'm against randomized dungeon layout in a game as tactically challenging like BG.

I'm for it in a loot-fest game like Diablo.

 

Since this will be more like BG I'd have to say I don't want it in this game.

Loot can be randomized to an extent. Leave the enemy placements and maps alone though please.

[Sacred_Path]

Randomization to some extent greatly increases replay value. Also metagaming. Things that happen w/o randomization:

 

- Character builds/ concepts that are definitely, always, preferrable. You know you don't need fire resistance if there are only 10 flaming enemies in the game. This affects everything from stats and skills to gear and formations.

 

- Knowing exactly where to go at what level

 

- Knowing exactly what spells to memorize and when

 

- Hunting for fixed items out of context

[steelshark]

Randomization categorized:

 

Dungeons/Environments:

Mostly No. As there should be some reason why something is in a specific place.

However, some locales could be randomised.

- 1-2 "levels" of an abandoned mine could be randomized, maybe even "mazed".

- The obscure shack deep in the forrest that the party has to find could be placed on a randomized map.

- Following a murderers tracks/hints/clues through the city could partially randomized (if it then still makes sense )

 

Monsters:

Random encounters while travelling overland can be "nice". There should however, be an ingame option to avoid such encounters. Tracking Skill? > Choose if you want to encounter enemies , Diplomacy skill? > Choose to talk your way out of a robbery by bandits.

 

I also really like to encounter "beginner"-enemies, as it shows the player just how strong he has become. When you're already killing Dragons, nothing is more satisfying than wandering into a bunch of skeletons, and just waltz through them

 

Encounters with stronger opponents should also be possible, but at least give the player a clear warning.

IE.:

Low-level-party > "Your Ranger reads the tracks of a monstrous bear. One of the kind to be best avoided he remarks"

High-level-party > " Your Ranger reads the tracks of a brown bear. Nothing you haven't dealt with before. Perhaps a good opportunity to get a new bear-pelt-rug"

[.Leif.]

I think the best place for randomized encounters is in the wilderness or deep within the city. BG covered both of those very well, as did Fallout 1 & 2 with outside encounters.

[Elerond]

My opinion is that they should keep randomization in bare minimum. So generic enemies droping random loot is okey, random encounters can work, but no random enviroments and random loot from chests, barrels, etc. In my experience that usually cause too much ridicilous loot, like junk in heavily locked chest in tresure room, or 50 gold pieces in barrel in dock full of beggars. And especially I don't like random epic/high level item loots, special artifacts should be in special places, and I like especially if they have story how they ended in that place.

 

[High Octane 881]

Randomization is hardly the answer to the concern you have IMO. BG and BG2 are two of my most replayed games ever simply based on the value and depth of the gameplay initially. Randomization is simply a mask for tedium. Aside from that, as a couple of others posted before me, it can take a drastic tole on the story telling mechanics of the game. Of course the boss of that particular dungeon is going to be located in his "throneroom" that's where it makes sense for him to be.

 

That being said I'm all for "random" wandering encounters so long as there is some restraint shown with their distribution. There definitely don't need to be three groups of trash monsters wandering around the spanse of every explorable map. Some of my most memorable encounters from the BGs were the "randomly" placed "side quest" encounters that you could only learn about if you just happened to stumble upon them while wandering through the wilderness. THAT is part of what brought me back for literal weeks of playtime over the course of nearly a decade on those games.

 

As for noisy enemies...something I vaguely remember is scrolling around through the nearby fog of war listening for the yips of Kobolds. I think it's a great mechanic that is strangely left out of a lot of games.

 

Not saying you're wrong...but I'll take very well scripted encounters over random pointless trash any day. Give me a reason to kill the fools before me.

[Fanboy3k]

Ok, let me preface by saying that the main issue I have isn't with the story or ending, or any of the games systems or mechanics but rather the lack of any real dungeon crawl or end game content. My main party has come together with everyone finally well suited to their given role in the party (nice synergy of gear+abilities) about the time I'm wrapping up my bounties and other side quests. I actually put the game down for months at this point as I was afraid the ride would end the moment I proceeded through the storm in striving toward the stories conclusion. Suffice it to say by the end of the game my characters still had room to grow as I still had not unlocked all the abilities for all my characters and yet I ran out of things to do. Worse yet I ran out of things to do just as I was becoming satisfied with how my party was coming together. I never really got to enjoy attacking any challenges/content with the party I had spent so many hours building. 

 

 

  I ended up using an older save game to go back through the game and look to see if I had missed any encounters or locations on the off chance I could find something to do with this team of bad asses. (to no avail)

 

  So, I finally have this great team but nothing for them to do. Which brings me to this topic of discussion. If random content isn't good for the story, what about a random dungeon "play ground" as a DLC just to have some where to go and have some fun with your party outside of the principle content? Could even make it interesting by building in challenges and achievements?