My fwiw kickstarter economic analysis regarding the rift between the traditionalists and evolutionists

[Arkeus]

 

Setting that aside, though (who knows how long they expect the average / long combat encounter to take in game time), the next problem is worse: given that the low level spells can be spammed to your hearts content, the only occasion you might want to pull out the "big guns" is a difficult combat encounter. More, the only time this would become an issue is when several difficult combat encounters occur in immediate proximity, as otherwise, you could just use your "big guns" on all the difficult combat encounters and let them recharge during the intermediate easier encounters. If several difficult combat encounters occurring back-to-back is rare (most likely) then having to make these sorts of decision would be rare as well. If several difficult combat encounters occurring back-to-back is common, then the game balance is poor.

 

 

Or maybe you -can't- rest at all when in enemy territory, so you can never get those higher-tier spells unless you are going back to town (which may not always be possible), and so having, say, 3 'easy' encounters, 4 'normal encounters', 3 'difficult' encounters and '2' Hard encounters by dungeon would force the player to prioritize his spell use heavily (you wouldn't use your high-level spells on easy encounters, but you might want to use one if you are unlucky in a normal one, let alone a difficult one). Basically, you could feel the 'attrition' of your spells/ressources slowly going down without having the need to go back to town for resting.

[metiman]

While I partially understand what Metiman is saying, I do think there are some broad over generalizations made in the post. I would argue people rarely fall into such over simplified categories, especially those on this board.

 

Also I hope I do not sound rude Metiman, but you talk about pandering to "Biowarians", but at the same time aren't you advocating that Obsidian just pander to another group? Is it not strange to label one side of pandering better over another when it is all just about pandering in this thread?

 

That being said, I do hate Bioware romances.

 

edit: Question, if someone does not like either a pure memorization system or cooldown system, what category are they automatically placed in?

 

Yes. I am advocating that Obsidian pander to another group in a sense. Advocating, not in the sense that I necessarily think it is in their best interest. Frankly I don't. I think they should maintain their artistic integrity and make whatever game they want to make. Advocating only in the sense that there is a certain subset of players, those with tastes similar to my own, who either will not pledge or will pledge at just the minimum level if combat is cooldown based. Now of course we now know that they are planning to make combat cooldown based. So it is something of a moot point.

 

I do not believe that Obsidian made this choice because they are pandering, although clearly at the very least such a system will have better commercial potential once the kickstarter is over and they go to retail sales. They will probably make a lot more money on a system that younger players and modern game players are used to and seem to enjoy. The geezer gamer category is not exactly ripe with profit potential. Hell, most people my age that I actually know do indeed think of computer games as a juvenile kid thing. Games for Old People? Not a huge demand for that I think.

 

Normally their game system is at least somewhat dictated by a publisher. I think they want to experiment. To 'innovate'. To try to achieve the best combat system ever made. One that will please both younger gamers who may have never played the IE games as well as older gamers who have. I've also heard that Sawyer is an admirer of the 4th Edition ruleset. This system really is quite a bit like that. Except without the "daily" spell categories that would just seem tedious and pointless to players who favor more modern game systems.

 

Someone who doesn't like either memorization or a cooldown system could be in either or any of the categories. If pressed I would say traditionalist because, certainly at this point, cooldowns, or more to the point quick spell resets, are THE issue. Personally I don't really have a horse in the Vancian vs Mana/Fatigue race. I have greatly enjoyed games with either sort of system. Arx Fatalis was one of my favorite games of all time and that used a mana pool + glyphs + mouse gesture trace system which I thought was just wonderful. I would love to see such a system in this game. Although I thought Arkane was a bit stingy with their mana allocations, making fighters and thieves relatively more attractive.

 

I also quite like some of the fatigue based mechanics I have heard proposed on this forum. A nice variation on mana based resource management. I have never played a game that used such a magic/combat system, but it seems like it could make an excellent system. I didn't feel that any of these systems was designed so as to be more accessible to younger or more casual players as the Obsidian system clearly seems designed for. Its design goals appear to be to remove the 'tedium' of resting and the 'limitation' of combat being more difficult the first time you fight a battle without scouting it first because you don't always have an ideal spell selection. It also appears to be more action focused than the older systems that I enjoyed. "If it's not fun, get rid of it" seems to be a design goal. One that I regard as awfully simplistic. Although apparently FedEx quests are still in even though few players regard those as a great deal of fun.

 

Do I think it's impossible for Tim Cain to design a modern combat/magic system that is mainly cooldown based and yet still fun to play? No. I think Mr. ToEE is a game design god and perhaps he can pull off what no one has before. I do think it's like trying to run a race with your leg in a cast though, but I guess time will tell. I'm not willing to gamble on such an experiment personally, but I will try it when it is released, and if I like it I'll certainly buy myself a copy.

Edited October 7, 2012 by metiman

[Monte Carlo]

4th Edition D&D sucks donkey balls. I tried to play it yesterday. It's horrible.

[alanschu]

younger players and modern game players are used to and seem to enjoy.

 

This isn't a very endearing comment to make. I'm 31 so unless I'm under the category of "younger player," your assumptions are falling apart. I'm certainly not a younger player that has never played the IE games. The strongest draw of people that will play this game are more likely going to be the ones that played the IE games, and those people aren't typically "younger."

 

 

The geezer gamer category is not exactly ripe with profit potential. Hell, most people my age that I actually know do indeed think of computer games as a juvenile kid thing. Games for Old People? Not a huge demand for that I think.

 

The "geezer" gamer category still buys lots of "modern" games.

 

I think the real issue here is that you struggle with the idea that your classifications (and it seems as though these classifications are important to you for some reason) don't seem to be much of a reflection of reality as you would like them to be, because you continue on here:

 

To try to achieve the best combat system ever made. One that will please both younger gamers who may have never played the IE games as well as older gamers who have.

 

 

Here's the reality: the people that you thought (and hoped) loved the IE games for the same reasons you do.... don't. In spite of your rationalizations that Obsidian is making these changes to appeal to some different audience, the fact is their initially stated target audience (fans of IE games) are still very much looking forward to this. Obsidian is looking on making a combat system that the "older" IE games have enjoyed, make no doubt about it.

 

 

I'm not willing to gamble on such an experiment personally, but I will try it when it is released, and if I like it I'll certainly buy myself a copy.

 

Well, I suppose it's certainly easier and safer to just go and pirate yourself a copy and then play some mental gymnastics to determine if you should bother paying for it after the fact....

Edited October 7, 2012 by alanschu

[Cantousent]

Personally, I'm all for folks, even obnoxious folks, sticking around and having a say in what goes on. However, advocating or alluding to your intention to pirate the game should be sufficient grounds to get you placed on moderated status, which is exactly what I would do at this moment if I were still a mod. I like you, metiman. I think you've got intestinal fortitude and conviction. ...But I've actually put my money where my mouth is with this project and it's kind of idiotic to have folks come here and talk about pirating the game my money is helping to fund.

[Monte Carlo]

Alan I am growing quite fond of Metiman, in the same way that you might wearily accept an attack of gout. At least he is measured and his posts have a soupçon of politeness about them.

 

But he is like a more considered version of Volourn. He has constructed his own reality where we live in these factions and nothing is going to dissuade him. He is a brave outrider from Planet Codex, which is like an Amish settlement where the realities of life are fixed. Now he has travelled into the badlands of slightly-more-relaxed people he is confused. I do not suspect that he will ever go native, but that instead he will remain, like King Canute, trying to turn back the tide.

 

At least he's amusing and literate.

[ddillon]

@Cantousent: You're overreacting imo. Piracy isn't the only way to try a game (come over to my place and I'll let you play any of my games, etc), and even if piracy was implied the purpose would be akin to that of a demo with the intention to buy. I know that some take issue with piracy-as-a-demo and don't want to argue about that topic, but still: I am also helping to fund the game and don't feel this worth moderation.

Edited October 7, 2012 by ddillon

[alanschu]

LOL interesting way of looking at it Monte.

 

I have been able to get to a point where Volo doesn't bother me in the slightest

[Cantousent]

:Cant's shrugging icon: I anticipated I would take as much or more heat for my post than metiman likely will for his. That's fair enough. I contend that talking about piracy in general, which I don't do, is quite different than plainly stating your intent to pirate a game developed by the people who so graciously host this forum. I don't have any animosity towards metiman, but I disagree with you on this, ddillon. Of course, I have no animosity for you either. Just speaking the plain truth about how I view the issue.

[ddillon]

@Cant: No offense or animosity intended towards you at all. I don't favor moderation in general and prefer action only for extreme cases, but I can see your point.

[Monte Carlo]

I must admit I didn't immediately see Metiman's post suggesting piracy as (a) he could try it out at a friend's place, (b) there might be a demo and of course the most likely (c ) which is he's going to buy it anyway.

 

[alanschu]

Well, he implies he'll try before buy. How he does that depends on him.

[metiman]

@alanschu:

 

Why is it that you believe I am referring to you personally? I assume you are referring to my statement: "They will probably make a lot more money on a system that younger players and modern game players are used to and seem to enjoy."

 

If you wish to argue against this statement then please go ahead and do so. It seems clear to me that kooldown kombat is definitely an easier system for younger and more casual players to get into. Pretty much every major publisher would seem to agree with me. By "younger" I mean "younger". I am not referring to any particular age group. You are aware that 14 year olds play computer games too, right? Admittedly they are more likely to play console games, but some play computer games as well. I think it will be easier for, say, a 10 year old to get into a cRPG with the kind of combat mechanics being proposed here than the ones in the original IE games or god forbid something like ToEE or the Realms of Arkania etc. That is not intended as an insult. I was once 10 years old as well and was playing computer games like Zork or Super Star Trek or whatever. We obviously didn't have such fancy games. I'm sure I would have enjoyed them. Especially if I had never tried anything else. But, yes, I do think a simpler system with less micromanagement and more action will have a greater appeal to younger gamers. Publishers seem to be making a lot of money based on that very assumption.

 

 

I think the real issue here is that you struggle with the idea that your classifications (and it seems as though these classifications are important to you for some reason) don't seem to be much of a reflection of reality as you would like them to be, because you continue on here:

 

 

Ah. Yes. Psycho-analyzing people over the internet. Always such an efficient process. I don't really consider 31 to be in the 'geezer' category yet. I think you have to at least wait until late 30s before you can claim that, even half-seriously. You aren't young anymore, but neither are you old. You are also still part of the younger generation that somehow took games more seriously later in life. Not sure why that is since people in their early to mid 40s are also young enough to have played computer games as a child, although late 70s / early 80s games were not even close to as sophisticatd as early 90s games. Perhaps that's the difference.

 

Here's the reality: the people that you thought (and hoped) loved the IE games for the same reasons you do.... don't. In spite of your rationalizations that Obsidian is making these changes to appeal to some different audience, the fact is their initially stated target audience (fans of IE games) are still very much looking forward to this. Obsidian is looking on making a combat system that the "older" IE games have enjoyed, make no doubt about it.

 

I realize there are a great many people here who hated IE combat and only liked the games due to the setting and the wonderful stories form games like Icewind Dale II. Where have I actually claimed that Obsidian is making these changes to appeal to any particular audience (aka pandering)? Go ahead and cite it. You have no evidence for your claim that the original target audience are still very much looking forward to this game. Take a little ride over to the codex if you can handle it and see for yourself. Or perhaps you think Bioware social is a more realistic place to look. If you Obsidian were in fact targeting the people who loved the combat of the IE games they would not be making a game based partially on 4th Edition combat rules and partially on ease-of-use, which they are. So you are wrong. I'm sorry if using logic instead of ad-hominem attacks does not suite you.

 

Well, I suppose it's certainly easier and safer to just go and pirate yourself a copy and then play some mental gymnastics to determine if you should bother paying for it after the fact....

 

Please cite where I said I was going to pirate the game. I think piracy is wrong and would never engage in such a vile pursuit. Oh sorry. Do facts make your arguments more difficult?

[moridin84]

I'm not willing to gamble on such an experiment personally, but I will try it when it is released, and if I like it I'll certainly buy myself a copy.

 

You're not willing to 'gamble' €25 euro on the game but are willing to spend hours and hours discussing it? Even though this €25 euro gets you a copy of the game cheaper then if you buy it on release?

 

By the way, how are you planning to try it before release? A demo or something?

Edited October 7, 2012 by moridin84

[IndiraLightfoot]

I'm afraid that this thread has derailed, and suggest a mod shutdown.

[Monte Carlo]

No, Indira! No! Threads like these keep the others tidy. It allows all of us odd people to have a little hangout. Besides there is no flaming, the piracy issue has been addressed (Metiman made it quite clear where he stands on the issue) and it allows Codexians their say.

[metiman]

I assume they will release at least a small piece of a level or one encounter or something so that people with doubts can at least get a taste of their unique combat system. That's not charity. Just good business sense. I trust them 100% with story. Just not with combat. Especially when they seem to be thinking in terms of something like 4th Ed. DnD. Even if they don't release any kind of demo I'm pretty sure someone I know will probably buy it when it's finished. I don't think Obsidian would mind my trying the game on a friend's computer, especially if they don't release a demo. And, no, I don't believe in pirating. Especially not with a kickstarter project and no BigEvilPublisher or DRM. That's just evil as well as disrespectful. Probably the majority of this forum (which to me is starting to resemble Bioware Social more and more) does regard me as the evil one, but I feel the same about most of you. Assuming that I am a pirate from my statement is just weird IMO. It's not like I have ever advocated piracy anywhere. As far as I'm concerned I didn't even bring up the topic.

 

I said the thing about trying before buying (which, again, I don't see anything wrong with) before I read Josh's recent Formspring and SomethingAwful comments. After Josh's comments I really am just left scratching my head. I hesitate to take anything they say about the magic system too seriously at this point. They keep contradicting themselves. At this point I'm too confused by all of their different statements to decide anything now as far as backing the project or not. I think I'm going to have to wait until maybe the day before the project ends and weigh all of the statements that have been made at that time to try to decide if the project is something that I feel I should support for philosophical reasons or just because I think the game will almost certainly be worth buying.

 

I agree that $25 is not a lot of money for a game, and if it is a good game it would be a bargain, but I'm not looking for a bargain. I'd be perfectly happy to pay Obsidian $65 or more for the game if it turns out well or even if they were at least trying to make the kind of game that I like. I remember I once posted on the Interplay forums that I wouldn't hesitate to pay over $100 for any sort of Black Isle game with a good story and I was soundly attacked for it by lots of people who thought that was way too much money for a computer game.

 

Hell, the whole point of this thread was that I was desperately eyeing the $250 and $500 tiers wishing that I could justify going for them. I would very much like to support them if they really were doing the kind of game that they at least seemed to promise on the kickstarter page and in the video. They didn't say, "Think BG2 or IWD but with 4th Edition rules." That second part changes a lot. I'm not sure what I think of 4th Edition DnD except that I dont think it is as good as 2nd or 3rd edition.

 

For those of you who are just on a witch hunt for pirates the forum rules do not allow me to say what I would like to say. Same reason I don't feel free to flame back the same people who are always flaming me. I'm not quite ready to get my IP address banned. I'll leave it at that.

[metiman]

Well Indira is a mod. So it is up to her.

Edited October 7, 2012 by metiman

[Monte Carlo]

I'm all for a bit of hyperbole and exaggeration, but...

 

Probably the majority of this forum (which to me is starting to resemble Bioware Social more and more) does regard me as the evil one, but I feel the same about most of you

 

Seriously, you need to lurk on BSN a bit more. This place isn't even in the foothills of lame by comparison. And you always have the Codex if you need to go back to your cave for a lie down.

[Uomoz]

Wild guess: most of the people here didn't even try the 4th edition.

[Monte Carlo]

^ I've said it before, it's a case of Video Killed The Radio Star. PC games aped PnP then, eventually, PnP aped PC games. 4E feels like you're playing pen and paper WoW. It's awful.

[metiman]

Wild guess: most of the people here didn't even try the 4th edition.

 

That is an excellent guess. The only thing I know about it is what I have heard indirectly, mostly on the codex, but also a few comments here. So far nothing good. I think there should be a thread dedicated to just discussing DnD 4th Ed. considering how important it seems to be as an inspiration for the PE ruleset. I am planning to look into the whole thing soon. Considering starting a thread, but as always would prefer if someone else would do it. Preferably someone who knows something about it, has read the rulebooks, and maybe even has tried playing it.

[Monte Carlo]

As I said, I tried it yesterday. Sawyer is clearly influenced by it. You have powaz you can use per encounter, per day and at will.

 

So magic missile is at will. You can spam it. There's a spell that let's you temporarily turn someone into a frog. That's a once-a-day powa. Feats / skills for all the classes work this way. Skills are broader than 3E (there is one called, yes this is true, Dungeoneering).

 

There are still free actions, rounds, flanking etc and some of it feels like a minis game and some of it feels like WoW.

 

I'm hardly a pen and paper Grognard: I hopped happily from 1st Ed. AD&D to 3E and preferred 3E. 3.5 sucked. 4E sucks. God knows what the mysterious "blend of rulez" 5E will be like.

 

I don't play much pen and paper any more, but if I did it would be Pathfinder. It has just the right mix of old-skool values, customization, style and granularity I look for in a game.

[ravenshrike]

Wild guess: most of the people here didn't even try the 4th edition.

My group tried it for about 10 minutes when it came out. Then we went "Hey look, Pathfinder" and haven't looked back since.

[Monte Carlo]

Can I just say that I'm always wary of PC versus PnP comparisons. I'm not saying that some aspects of 4E might not fit into a computer game (after all, it is clearly influenced by them) but that as a PnP system it's poor.

 

And as I said before, the illusive and sometimes fallacious quest for balance in all things in a games system can grind all the quirky fun out of it. So what if Class A is less of a challenge than Class B?