[Merged] Cooldowns 2.0

[ogrezilla]

Games like DA2 don't have this stuff and look how it turned out.

Are you wishing to imply the problem with DA2 is a lack of tedium?

that does pretty much seem to be the logic there.

[ogrezilla]

There seems to be a lot of thinking along the lines of Bioware changed their games and those games were bad, therefor change is bad.

 

Not at all. Many alternatives have been suggested here like various fatigue systems. I have a problem with cooldowns in specific because they have never worked in the past imo and so far I haven't heard of anything special that would make them better in this game.

ya, its not everybody.

 

The thing that makes me more hopeful about this cooldown system is that the goal is to use it to replace resting more than to replace the casting system. You'll still choose spells and you still won't be casting magic missile every 3 seconds as it comes off cooldown. The intention is for the casting to feel almost exactly like the Vancian system within any given fight. its just how the spells will be recovered between fights that they want to change.

Edited October 4, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Grimlorn]

Yeah you can say this and it sounds good, but how do you implement it without a cooldown system and while keeping the game tactical. You can't think of a way. You can just say well lets replace the tedium in the game without removing elements. While we're at it, let's make everyone's favorite RPG in the whole genre. Empty words.

Arrows are now expensive and money is limited. I literally cannot afford to use a bow and arrow against every enemy in the game. Oh what's that? I can learn to craft my own arrows though? And even to salvage some of the arrows that are sticking out of all of my enemies?

 

And I just replaced the tedium of walking back and forth to get arrows all the time with legitimate strategic choices and potential challenge.

 

For spells, I'm not sure. I'm not a game designer. Limiting where I can rest would be a start.

What does this have to with anything I said? Nothing.

[ogrezilla]

we were talking about removing tedium from the game without removing game elements. You brought up a few posts ago the notion of someone wanting unlimited ammunition because its tedious to go get more. So I gave you an example of removing the tedium of buying ammunition without removing the element of ammunition management.

Edited October 4, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Grimlorn]

we were talking about removing tedium from the game without removing game elements. So I gave you an example

I was talking about the cooldown system specifically. All you did was make up a scenario about arrows to support your point. You can simply stock up on arrows and bullets in most games so you don't run out. If you forget you have to walk back. Crafting arrows isn't a bad idea, but it's not really a strategic choice between buying arrows, pulling them off corpses, and crafting them. It has nothing to do with the cooldown system that's being suggested. Edited October 4, 2012 by Grimlorn

[ReyVagabond]

This isn't a MMO. You control 6 characters at once, so using a MMO as an example for well done combat is terrible.

 

Personaly i hate WoW but i like MMOs in general thei are games that need to keep the player engages with combat during most of their playtime, and thats its why their good refences to how use active combat. (DA:O was like a MMO in many fictures, witch is not bad but still i prefer a Guild Wars 1 as insiparion for active combat)

 

And Guild Wars 1 was by no meas and MMO was a Online game, In my taste was Closer to Icewind dale than Everquest.

And in Guild Wars 1 You can activly control 8 characrters at once! by placing orders, like companion nº 1 go there, attack that target, use X skill.

Also they had good enogh AI so you dont need to activily control them but you could do it and because it was in real time most players just let the AI do most of the work. Some dindt and it was a plesure seeing them play.

And If i can Use pause i can control as many Charcters as i want to and adding a good number of active skills.

[ogrezilla]

we were talking about removing tedium from the game without removing game elements. So I gave you an example

I was talking about the cooldown system specifically. All you did was make up a scenario about arrows to support your point. You can simply stock up on arrows and bullets in most games so you don't run out. If you forget you have to walk back. Crafting arrows isn't a bad idea, but it's not really a strategic choice between buying arrows, pulling them off corpses, and crafting them. It has nothing to do with the cooldown system that's being suggested.

you brought up arrows and bullets, not me.

Judging by your post, you'd rather not have arrows or bullets because you could run out and then have to return to town to restock and that would be tedious.

Edited October 4, 2012 by ogrezilla

[metiman]

Games like DA2 don't have this stuff and look how it turned out.

Are you wishing to imply the problem with DA2 is a lack of tedium?

 

I believe so. The lack of a particular kind of tedium that cannot be removed without also removing most of the fun of the game. Dragon Age specializes in a kind of pointless tedium and it probably came about due to precisely the kind of logic that Josh has been using. Everything has a price and the price of attempting to remove the tedium from every single aspect of the game, no matter how crucial to the operation of the mechanics, leads to not 1% of the game being tedious, but all of the game being tedious. I think 1% is better than 100%. So it's not so much the 1% tedium that I like. It's the fact that that 1% is protecting me from the 99% if I tried to eliminate it.

Edited October 4, 2012 by metiman

[Valorian]

its just how the spells will be recovered between fights that they want to change.

 

Into what?

There are really not many options.

 

You either have something that you click to intentionally replenish spells (resting, touching glyphs, reading, meditating, drinking potions or however you want to call it) OR they replenish on their own without your input (so you either wait.. and wait... and maybe wait some more or it's DA style of combat-over-you-full-again).

[ogrezilla]

its just how the spells will be recovered between fights that they want to change.

 

Into what?

There are really not many options.

 

You either have something that you click to intentionally replenish spells (resting, touching glyphs, reading, meditating, drinking potions or however you want to call it) OR they replenish on their own without your input (so you either wait.. and wait... and maybe wait some more or it's DA style of combat-over-you-full-again).

or some combination of the two. Resting is confirmed to still be in. Maybe resting isn't even being changed at all. Cooldowns could just be added to keep the mage from needing to rest quite so often. If my mage is getting low level spells back fairly regularly via cooldowns I wouldn't feel the need to rest nearly as often. High levels spells would basically go unchanged.

 

Then again, if I was describing that system my main descriptor would not be cooldowns.

Edited October 4, 2012 by ogrezilla

[ogrezilla]

Games like DA2 don't have this stuff and look how it turned out.

Are you wishing to imply the problem with DA2 is a lack of tedium?

 

I believe so. The lack of a particular kind of tedium that cannot be removed without also removing most of the fun of the game. Dragon Age specializes in a kind of pointless tedium and it probably came about due to precisely the kind of logic that Josh has been using. Everything has a price and the price of attempting to remove the tedium from every single aspect of the game, no matter how crucial to the operation of the mechanics, leads to not 1% of the game being tedious, but all of the game being tedious. I think 1% is better than 100%. So it's not so much the 1% tedium that I like. It's the fact that that 1% is protecting me from the 99% if I tried to eliminate it.

lack of tedium is not the problem then. The problem is the lack of the other mechanics that were removed or changed in an attempt to remove tedium.

Edited October 4, 2012 by ogrezilla

[old school fool]

There were some things the newer RPGs, like Dragon Age, did well. In DA, you had to be tactical in combat and conserve your mana, because lyrium potions were rare and expensive. The sustained buffs taking a portion of your mana/fatigue seemed to work well in eliminating tedious "buffing cycles" before every combat. What Dragon Age didn't do well was create any method for using strategy, since you always had the same spell arsenal, and always just ended up using the most powerful ones you had.

 

Honestly, I would keep the DA limited mana supply, keep the sustained buff type system, but add something I described before the threads got merged, when I think it got a little lost in the shuffle. Add a mechanic whereby mages can "meditate" upon certain schools of spells before adventuring, or on rest, or whatever mechanic you prefer, and then these spells cost 1/2 mana, or 1/3 mana, of all your other spells. This mana cost reduction would persist until the mage rested and "meditated" upon another tome. So there's still some benefit to strategic spell management before going into the dungeon, while eliminating the 3-strikes and you're out (of spells) situation until you rest again, as well as the micromanagement of your spell book that you had to do in BG2. Compensate by having mana regenerate very slowly, so there's a reason to keep using your low-cost spells. This "meditated" spell mechanic would work even better if the dungeons had "wandering" monsters that would stumble across you while you're sitting around in an unobtrusive corner waiting for your mana to recharge; your mana would never sufficiently recharge if you didn't use your strategically chosen low-cost spells.

 

This could easily be worked into the "Tome" spell system the devs are describing. Each mage has 1 "tome" for each school, 1 of which he can "meditate" upon, to keep it fresh in his mind, and lower mana costs. Or he can create customized "Tomes" of various spells for various situations, whichever is least tedious to use. Strategy is preserved, and the tedium of spam-resting is eliminated.

[Valorian]

its just how the spells will be recovered between fights that they want to change.

 

Into what?

There are really not many options.

 

You either have something that you click to intentionally replenish spells (resting, touching glyphs, reading, meditating, drinking potions or however you want to call it) OR they replenish on their own without your input (so you either wait.. and wait... and maybe wait some more or it's DA style of combat-over-you-full-again).

or some combination of the two. Resting is confirmed to still be in. Maybe resting isn't even being changed at all. Cooldowns could just be added to keep the mage from needing to rest quite so often. If my mage is getting low level spells back fairly regularly via cooldowns I wouldn't feel the need to rest nearly as often. High levels spells would basically go unchanged.

 

A Frankensteinian mixture of both so you can wait or click the rest button when you're tired of waiting? Ingenious.

 

Since we're philosophating about possibilities from what clearly appears to be a myriad of options and innovations... How about aliens that come and randomly give you spells? Or, you only get spells when a meteorite hits you in the head?

[ogrezilla]

its just how the spells will be recovered between fights that they want to change.

 

Into what?

There are really not many options.

 

You either have something that you click to intentionally replenish spells (resting, touching glyphs, reading, meditating, drinking potions or however you want to call it) OR they replenish on their own without your input (so you either wait.. and wait... and maybe wait some more or it's DA style of combat-over-you-full-again).

or some combination of the two. Resting is confirmed to still be in. Maybe resting isn't even being changed at all. Cooldowns could just be added to keep the mage from needing to rest quite so often. If my mage is getting low level spells back fairly regularly via cooldowns I wouldn't feel the need to rest nearly as often. High levels spells would basically go unchanged.

 

A Frankensteinian mixture of both so you can wait or click the rest button when you're tired of waiting? Ingenious.

 

Since we're philosophating about possibilities from what clearly appears to be a myriad of options and innovations... How about aliens that come and randomly give you spells? Or, you only get spells when a meteorite hits you in the head?

Oh good, thank you for letting me know intelligent conversation isn't going to happen with you. Saves me some time.

[Grimlorn]

Games like DA2 don't have this stuff and look how it turned out.

Are you wishing to imply the problem with DA2 is a lack of tedium?

 

I believe so. The lack of a particular kind of tedium that cannot be removed without also removing most of the fun of the game. Dragon Age specializes in a kind of pointless tedium and it probably came about due to precisely the kind of logic that Josh has been using. Everything has a price and the price of attempting to remove the tedium from every single aspect of the game, no matter how crucial to the operation of the mechanics, leads to not 1% of the game being tedious, but all of the game being tedious. I think 1% is better than 100%. So it's not so much the 1% tedium that I like. It's the fact that that 1% is protecting me from the 99% if I tried to eliminate it.

I didn't respond because I thought the question was a joke because it had nothing to do with what I was saying. I was talking about how DA2 went with a CD system and had your health regen or fully recharge after battle. DA2 obviously did this to prevent tedium in healing and downtime in between combat. So to suggest that I implied DA2's only problem was a lack of tedium is incredibly stupid. I'm just saying you would get a cooldown system like DA2 with little to no downtime in between combat.

 

DA2 had a ton of problems. DA2 also had cds with 30+ seconds if I remember right. Some may have been a minute or longer but combat also lasted a few minutes on nightmare with all the waves of mobs with tons of health. So when Sawyer mentions a CD system with spells having a 45 second to 5 minute CD it starts making you think of DA if you played those games. I know he's also said that he's not talking about a system where you cast fireball every 30 seconds after one another, so we'll just have to wait and see what they come up with.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Grimlorn]

we were talking about removing tedium from the game without removing game elements. So I gave you an example

I was talking about the cooldown system specifically. All you did was make up a scenario about arrows to support your point. You can simply stock up on arrows and bullets in most games so you don't run out. If you forget you have to walk back. Crafting arrows isn't a bad idea, but it's not really a strategic choice between buying arrows, pulling them off corpses, and crafting them. It has nothing to do with the cooldown system that's being suggested.

you brought up arrows and bullets, not me.

Judging by your post, you'd rather not have arrows or bullets because you could run out and then have to return to town to restock and that would be tedious.

Again all you did was make up a scenario about arrows to support your point. You also said it adds strategic choice to choose between buying arrows, looting them from corpses or crafting them. It really doesn't. It also completely disregards my original point.

[Valorian]

its just how the spells will be recovered between fights that they want to change.

 

Into what?

There are really not many options.

 

You either have something that you click to intentionally replenish spells (resting, touching glyphs, reading, meditating, drinking potions or however you want to call it) OR they replenish on their own without your input (so you either wait.. and wait... and maybe wait some more or it's DA style of combat-over-you-full-again).

or some combination of the two. Resting is confirmed to still be in. Maybe resting isn't even being changed at all. Cooldowns could just be added to keep the mage from needing to rest quite so often. If my mage is getting low level spells back fairly regularly via cooldowns I wouldn't feel the need to rest nearly as often. High levels spells would basically go unchanged.

 

A Frankensteinian mixture of both so you can wait or click the rest button when you're tired of waiting? Ingenious.

 

Since we're philosophating about possibilities from what clearly appears to be a myriad of options and innovations... How about aliens that come and randomly give you spells? Or, you only get spells when a meteorite hits you in the head?

Oh good, thank you for letting me know intelligent conversation isn't going to happen with you. Saves me some time.

 

I was just brainstorming possibilities to mimic your extremely intelligent either-wait-or-if-you're-tired-of-waiting-click-a-button suggestion. I'm sorry if those 2 suggestions weren't idi.. ehm, intelligent enough to reach the brilliancy of the one you offered.

[ogrezilla]

we were talking about removing tedium from the game without removing game elements. So I gave you an example

I was talking about the cooldown system specifically. All you did was make up a scenario about arrows to support your point. You can simply stock up on arrows and bullets in most games so you don't run out. If you forget you have to walk back. Crafting arrows isn't a bad idea, but it's not really a strategic choice between buying arrows, pulling them off corpses, and crafting them. It has nothing to do with the cooldown system that's being suggested.

you brought up arrows and bullets, not me.

Judging by your post, you'd rather not have arrows or bullets because you could run out and then have to return to town to restock and that would be tedious.

Again all you did was make up a scenario about arrows to support your point. You also said it adds strategic choice to choose between buying arrows, looting them from corpses or crafting them. It really doesn't. It also completely disregards my original point.

I'm sorry then. Apparently I mixed up your point and your side example.

[metiman]

There seems to be a lot of thinking along the lines of Bioware changed their games and those games were bad, therefor change is bad.

 

Well certainly the kind of change that Bioware made was bad and yet they probably had the same motivation that Obsidian now has. To improve things. Dragon age was advertised as the spiritual successor to BG2. Perhaps they sincerely wanted to make something like that, but partly due to their mostly nextgen player base and partly due to simple errors in logic they ended up destroying everything about BG2 and even NWN that was of any value at all. Instead of making things better they made them much, much worse and at great expense. They could have just made BG3 using the old Infinity Engine and saved a whole lot of money and earned the respect and gratitude of everyone who enjoyed that wonderful game. Gaider could have done it. Instead they tried to improve things. I think the lesson that can be learned form Bioware and Dragon Age is not so much that change is bad, although many kinds of changes clearly are, but that change is dangerous. And the more perfect the system you try to improve upon the more dangerous it is to attempt it.

 

Yes, yes. Your syllogism should be:

Bioware changed their games (which used to be good).

Those changed games were bad.

Therefore changing their games was bad.

 

But you changed the conclusion to "All change is bad" which clearly doesn't follow. Looks like Merin finally gets her beloved strawman served on a silver platter. Of course I'm only saying that because I haven't seen anyone argue that "All change is bad." Perhaps you can point to an example that I missed.

 

It is important to learn from others' mistakes so that you do not repeat them. Bioware was in a similar situation to the one that Obsidian is in now. They chose to fill their BG2 sequel-in-spirit with NextGen mechanics which presumably all sounded great at the time. Ushering in the modern age. Progress! Hurrah! But that isn't what happened, is it?

 

It's just a lesson. Nothing more. It certainly doesn't prove that Obsidian cannot somehow succeed where hundreds of other highly intelligent people have before always failed. Maybe they'll finally pull of a cooldown system that really works for once. It's highly unlikely, especially without an extremely insightful analysis of what went wrong with all of the other attempts, but it's not impossible.

 

Nevetheless, by replacing sleep with a short, convenient timer or just an instant recharge button they would be fundamentally changing the dynamics of the entire game. If that isn't a risky thing to do then I do not know what is.

[ogrezilla]

its just how the spells will be recovered between fights that they want to change.

 

Into what?

There are really not many options.

 

You either have something that you click to intentionally replenish spells (resting, touching glyphs, reading, meditating, drinking potions or however you want to call it) OR they replenish on their own without your input (so you either wait.. and wait... and maybe wait some more or it's DA style of combat-over-you-full-again).

or some combination of the two. Resting is confirmed to still be in. Maybe resting isn't even being changed at all. Cooldowns could just be added to keep the mage from needing to rest quite so often. If my mage is getting low level spells back fairly regularly via cooldowns I wouldn't feel the need to rest nearly as often. High levels spells would basically go unchanged.

 

A Frankensteinian mixture of both so you can wait or click the rest button when you're tired of waiting? Ingenious.

 

Since we're philosophating about possibilities from what clearly appears to be a myriad of options and innovations... How about aliens that come and randomly give you spells? Or, you only get spells when a meteorite hits you in the head?

Oh good, thank you for letting me know intelligent conversation isn't going to happen with you. Saves me some time.

 

I was just brainstorming possibilities to mimic your extremely intelligent either-wait-or-if-you're-tired-of-waiting-click-a-button suggestion. I'm sorry if those 2 suggestions weren't idi.. ehm, intelligent enough to reach the brilliancy of the one you offered.

Ok, so as simple as the rest button was, it was rarely so simple that you could do it anywhere at anytime without some consequence. You would need to backtrack to somewhere safe or risk getting attacked. Now if you introduced cooldowns so that you generally had enough low levels spells available in each fight to allow the mage to contribute, you might be less inclined to inconvenience yourself with finding a place to rest. You could just press on and have your mage cast a low level spell or two in most fights. Then when needed you would use the better spells.

 

Its not perfect, but I think it would help by adding longevity to mages so you aren't resting purely for their sake so often.

[ogrezilla]

There seems to be a lot of thinking along the lines of Bioware changed their games and those games were bad, therefor change is bad.

 

Well certainly the kind of change that Bioware made was bad and yet they probably had the same motivation that Obsidian now has. To improve things. Dragon age was advertised as the spiritual successor to BG2. Perhaps they sincerely wanted to make something like that, but partly due to their mostly nextgen player base and partly due to simple errors in logic they ended up destroying everything about BG2 and even NWN that was of any value at all. Instead of making things better they made them much, much worse and at great expense. They could have just made BG3 using the old Infinity Engine and saved a whole lot of money and earned the respect and gratitude of everyone who enjoyed that wonderful game. Gaider could have done it. Instead they tried to improve things. I think the lesson that can be learned form Bioware and Dragon Age is not so much that change is bad, although many kinds of changes clearly are, but that change is dangerous. And the more perfect the system you try to improve upon the more dangerous it is to attempt it.

 

Yes, yes. Your syllogism should be:

Bioware changed their games (which used to be good).

Those changed games were bad.

Therefore changing their games was bad.

 

But you changed the conclusion to "All change is bad" which clearly doesn't follow. Looks like Merin finally gets her beloved strawman served on a silver platter. Of course I'm only saying that because I haven't seen anyone argue that "All change is bad." Perhaps you can point to an example that I missed.

 

It is important to learn from others' mistakes so that you do not repeat them. Bioware was in a similar situation to the one that Obsidian is in now. They chose to fill their BG2 sequel-in-spirit with NextGen mechanics which presumably all sounded great at the time. Ushering in the modern age. Progress! Hurrah! But that isn't what happened, is it?

 

It's just a lesson. Nothing more. It certainly doesn't prove that Obsidian cannot somehow succeed where hundreds of other highly intelligent people have before always failed. Maybe they'll finally pull of a cooldown system that really works for once. It's highly unlikely, especially without an extremely insightful analysis of what went wrong with all of the other attempts, but it's not impossible.

 

Nevetheless, by replacing sleep with a short, convenient timer or just an instant recharge button they would be fundamentally changing the dynamics of the entire game. If that isn't a risky thing to do then I do not know what is.

fair enough. Those changes were bad. But that doesn't mean future changes will be bad. That was my point. Thank you for saying it more eloquently than I did.

Edited October 4, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Jaesun]

There is NO Publisher involved with Project Eternity. Unlike BioWare.

[ogrezilla]

There is NO Publisher involved with Project Eternity. Unlike BioWare.

indeed.

Edited October 4, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Valorian]

Ok, so as simple as the rest button was, it was rarely so simple that you could do it anywhere at anytime without some consequence. You would need to backtrack to somewhere safe or risk getting attacked. Now if you introduced cooldowns so that you generally had enough low levels spells available in each fight to allow the mage to contribute, you might be less inclined to inconvenience yourself with finding a place to rest. You could just press on and have your mage cast a low level spell or two in most fights. Then when needed you would use the better spells.

 

Its not perfect, but I think it would help by adding longevity to mages so you aren't resting purely for their sake so often.

 

I'm saying that it is redundant to have a resting system (in which you can't rest anywhere and anytime, my preference) AND spells (mana, HP, stamina) recharging on their own.

I don't want spells and co. recharging on their own by waiting because it opens a huge can of worms and trivializes the importance of resting/finding a safe place to rest.

[Tale]

Well certainly the kind of change that Bioware made was bad and yet they probably had the same motivation that Obsidian now has. To improve things.

There's numerous ways that evolutionary paths can go. One path leading to a dead end doesn't imply stasis is the solution.

 

Bioware's changes were largely around becoming cinematic. Cutscenes and voices and all these things set to focus on a limited set of emotional outcomes enhanced by sight and sound. And because it makes for better screenshots that marketing loves. Everything spiraled out of that. Better spell effects mean fewer spells. Better armor graphics mean fewer armors. More voice means less dialogue. I haven't seen the word cinematic come out as a direction for this project once.

 

Bioware wasn't trying to improve the gameplay of the genre. They were sacrificing it for 3D graphics and dynamic camera angles.

 

The best example of this is how they completely abandoned tactical party control for ceilings.