Please include women with shirts on.

[The Sharmat]

The WNBA would destroy a band of kobolds at basketball and you know it. Most fights in RPGs aren'te cream of the crop vs. cream of the crop.

 

Besides, I was arguing against the notion that women lose against men 100% of the time in all physical confrontations, to the extent that they shouldn't even bother wearing armor because women in combat never happens ever and is fantasy directly comparable to unicorns.

Edited September 16, 2012 by The Sharmat

[nikolokolus]

I'm not even opposed to having men being slightly stronger inherently, so long as women get a slight inherent stat bonus to agility or some such. The sexes don't have to be dead equal physically, but it would be damned silly to stat gimp women characters and make them an undesirable class choice.

[The Sharmat]

I could live with -1 or -2 strength default, honestly, I just don't think it's a smart move in terms of marketing and I can perfeclty understand why people wouldn't like it. I just find the idea that female fighters are such an absurd concept as to throw all logic out the window ridiculous.

[Tamerlane]

Abandonin' ship here, boss.

 

And maybe replaying a Fire Emblem game because a certain avatar went and reminded me that it's been forever since I last did that.

[Rostere]

I think we really should end this:

 

Do we think that wearing a bikini armor is absurd in a fantasy game? No

Do we want Bikini Armor in this game? No

 

Silly armour is silly regardless of whether it's a fantasy game or not.

 

Do we think that in the real world men have advantages when they fight against women: Yes

Do we think men would always win in real life? No

Do we think that men should have these advantages in a fantasy game? No

 

Look for Arcanum for a perfect example of how this is handled in a RPG. Female physical warriors are a very rare exception in game. Female characters get a malus in Strength and a bonus in Constitution which in-game translates into less physical damage and HP and more mana (okay, the Constitution part is a little bit arbitrary, but you get what I mean). I wouldn't mind female characters getting a malus in Strength and a bonus to social skills. I often find women are better than men on verbal skills, and on reading people's feelings and motives.

 

Now all of this does not mean that it's not POSSIBLE to create a strong female warrior, only that it's harder, just like it's harder to create a dwarven mage (in a setting where dwarves are not attuned to magic). In D&D it's harder to create a half-orc wizard, for good reason. D&D has an overly simplistic and combat-oriented character creation and the only reason I can think of that women and men do not have different stats is that it would be hard to model the female advantages in the system.

 

Also, I can imagine species where the genders are not so differentiated as humans are. Elven males and females might have the same stats, for example. If human males and females have the same stats I want that to be explained in the game lore.

[Catamite]

Yes, because using a GAME as a reference is a great way to settle the realism of a hypothetical situtation.

 

It settles a setting's internal logic, which is entirely realistic.

 

Only if that setting explicitly redefines men and women and their abilities. Just like you assume that the sun rises in the east, you assume that men are stronger than women, unless told otherwise.

Fallout: New Vegas was a video game designed by... wait for it... Obsidian Entertainment. In this game there are no stat penalties for playing as a women nor as a man. While not realistic this was most likely done to not limit a player's options and allow to play whatever role as whatever gender.

 

Project Eternity is an upcoming video game designed by.... the exact same people. Why would they suddenly decide to limit the player's options in such a way when it is so rarely done? The only game I can think of with stat penalities is Arcanum which gives a +1 to strength for male characters and a +1 to Endurance for female characters.

 

Oh I absolutely agree. It doesn't make any sense to include any stat bonuses or penalties in a game. Let people play however they want. But don't say that you shouldn't have skimpily clad women in the game because it's UNREALISTIC. Sexist, childish, "I DON'T LIKE IT", etc, are all perfectly valid reasons. Once you mention REALISM however, the only logical conclusion is that women shouldn't be there to begin with. How they're dressed doesn't really matter.

 

 

Dan- you have admitted now multiple times that there are valid reasons for women not being scantily clad, yet your reason for still posting is a tangential argument on realism... you have also referenced your own fitness, I can't help but feel it's your own ego is bruised at the thought of a woman could beat you in a fight.... Well somewhere out there there is one, deal with it.

 

Women will fight as warriors in Eternity, regardless of how that compares to reality, and they deserve the same armour as the men, not whore outfits.

[ComradeGoby]

I'm not even opposed to having men being slightly stronger inherently, so long as women get a slight inherent stat bonus to agility or some such. The sexes don't have to be dead equal physically, but it would be damned silly to stat gimp women characters and make them an undesirable class choice.

 

But women getting any bonus in any atheletic department doesn't make sense.

 

Women should get bonuses to charisma if anything.

 

Best though is probably no bonuses to anything everybody starts at the same place

[dan107]

I could live with -1 or -2 strength default, honestly, I just don't think it's a smart move in terms of marketing and I can perfeclty understand why people wouldn't like it. I just find the idea that female fighters are such an absurd concept as to throw all logic out the window ridiculous.

 

Stat penalties don't make much sense in a game. If you were to implement them realistically, you'd have to gimp women to the point where they are not viable as fighters. And if not for the sake of realism, no point to have them there to begin with.

 

And yes, the idea of female fighters in an adventuring party is indeed an absurd concept. Exactly as absurd than having women on an NFL team for instance.

[The Sharmat]

If human males and females have the same stats I want that to be explained in the game lore.

I don't really require that because I'll just assume it's the sort of minor concession to gameplay over realism that is standard for the industry. Not all compromises are bad.

 

EDIT: Yeah I'm with Tamerlane now. I think everything that can be said on the subject has been said. If no opinions have been altered then they're not going to be. At least not here, in this thread.

Edited September 16, 2012 by The Sharmat

[dan107]

Dan- you have admitted now multiple times that there are valid reasons for women not being scantily clad, yet your reason for still posting is a tangential argument on realism... you have also referenced your own fitness, I can't help but feel it's your own ego is bruised at the thought of a woman could beat you in a fight.... Well somewhere out there there is one, deal with it.

 

Lol, lets not get personal here. The only reason I even mentioned it is that someone asked. I'm sure there are some women out there tougher than ME, but I'm not nearly as tough as the toughest men.

 

As far as realism goes, that's not tangential, that's my whole arguement really. Say what you will about chainmail bikinis, just don't say you don't want them because they're not REALISTIC. I want them because I find that scantily clad women make my gaming experience more enjoyable. Nothing more, nothing less really.

[Longknife]

I really don't see the neccesity of men having an advantage in strength, or for there to be any gender-based perks and downsides in attributes, tbh.

 

I have two female friends, both train in....I forget the name but some form of Martial arts.

Am I stronger than them? I'm stronger than one. I was actually surprised I was as I don't do as much physical fitness as she does, but ok, I guess this is a case where gender does matter. The other woman however, I'm not. Why? Because again, they do more fitness training than me.

 

Men have an initial advantage, sure, but by the end of the day, it all comes down to the work you're willing to put into your craft, and there WILL be women that put more effort into staying physically fit than men.

 

"But by the end of things men are still stronger, that's why the Olympics splits events by gender!"

 

Well I seem to recall a certain female swimmer who swam fast enough to actually compete with her male counterparts just this summer. Aside from that, the Olympics is literally the best of the best. Like these people live, eat and breathe what they do. I think it's a rather dramatic example to be taking when we're talking about an RPG. There's no reason why we can't have a strong female warrior character who we are left to assume simply spends more time training than most men, and thus can compete with them. We get to fill in blanks like this, and this allows us more character creation freedom.

 

In short, I think it'd be ridiculous to say women shouldn't be allowed to be warriors, ESPECIALLY when it's such an armchair argument where we sit here on an internet forum and claim to have superior knowledge of women in midevil warfare.

[Darji]

Yes, because using a GAME as a reference is a great way to settle the realism of a hypothetical situtation.

 

It settles a setting's internal logic, which is entirely realistic.

 

Only if that setting explicitly redefines men and women and their abilities. Just like you assume that the sun rises in the east, you assume that men are stronger than women, unless told otherwise.

Fallout: New Vegas was a video game designed by... wait for it... Obsidian Entertainment. In this game there are no stat penalties for playing as a women nor as a man. While not realistic this was most likely done to not limit a player's options and allow to play whatever role as whatever gender.

 

Project Eternity is an upcoming video game designed by.... the exact same people. Why would they suddenly decide to limit the player's options in such a way when it is so rarely done? The only game I can think of with stat penalities is Arcanum which gives a +1 to strength for male characters and a +1 to Endurance for female characters.

 

Oh I absolutely agree. It doesn't make any sense to include any stat bonuses or penalties in a game. Let people play however they want. But don't say that you shouldn't have skimpily clad women in the game because it's UNREALISTIC. Sexist, childish, "I DON'T LIKE IT", etc, are all perfectly valid reasons. Once you mention REALISM however, the only logical conclusion is that women shouldn't be there to begin with. How they're dressed doesn't really matter.

 

 

Dan- you have admitted now multiple times that there are valid reasons for women not being scantily clad, yet your reason for still posting is a tangential argument on realism... you have also referenced your own fitness, I can't help but feel it's your own ego is bruised at the thought of a woman could beat you in a fight.... Well somewhere out there there is one, deal with it.

 

Women will fight as warriors in Eternity, regardless of how that compares to reality, and they deserve the same armour as the men, not whore outfits.

 

WE never even said anything against this. Just don't come with realism thats all we are asking. Everything is totally possible in a game or a fantasy world so its also totally possible in this game.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

misogynerds! *spongebob rainbow*

 

Seriously guys. Sure it's a fantasy, but women play video games too and some of us like our female characters to look like more than swimwear monthly models.

Let us have some power fantasy as well don't hog it all to yourself.

I'm not saying there can never be sexy ladies but at LEAST let the player characters look respectable.

 

I don't think that's really too much to ask.

 

I would accept male characters to have more strength but women to have better constitution.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Troller]

Main female character just doesn't make much sense IMO.In games, movies and in history of the real world, I mean you can probably count with your fingers the amount of important females in our history.

So my suggestion is making the main story locked in on a male possibility only...at least for some classes, like warrior, paladin...

[Volourn]

I don't think stat differences between the genders are needed. It shouldn't matter either that the 'average' male is stronger than the 'average' female in real life. Totally irrelevant - espiciailly since adventurers purely on their name are anything but average to start with. *shrug*

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Main female character just doesn't make much sense IMO.In games, movies and in history of the real world, I mean you can probably count with your fingers the amount of important females in our history.

So my suggestion is making the main story locked in on a male possibility only...at least for some classes, like warrior, paladin...

 

Please tell me how it effects you if there is a choice to be male or female.

Just not choose the female character?

I know I'm a freaking genius right *Jazz hands*

 

(Aside from the fact that the idea of Obsidan not having that choice is ludicrous)

Edited September 16, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[mkreku]

But.. doesn't the same logic apply to chainmail bikini's too? Just don't wear them if you don't like them?

 

CONFUSED

[Moonlight Butterfly]

But.. doesn't the same logic apply to chainmail bikini's too? Just don't wear them if you don't like them?

 

CONFUSED

 

As long as there is a choice not to wear them I'm fine with that.

 

A bit like Avernum with the scantily lady and the full armour lady.

 

Let's take fallout vegas for example there are tons of mods to make skimpy outfits for women. It's not like I go and rage at them. What you do in a single player game is fine by me.

 

I wouldn't want NPC's looking like strippers though. That character in the Kickstarter vid seemed okay with me if she is in it. Boob plates are fine with me too.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Volourn]

Have their been many RPgs - where your PC is not pre determined - that forces you to wear chainmail bikinis? I can't think of one.

[Volourn]

Wow. Mr. 'Nigro' is obviously a troll. Posting stuff just to get a negative reaction. Cool.

[Emitan]

Main female character just doesn't make much sense IMO.In games, movies and in history of the real world, I mean you can probably count with your fingers the amount of important females in our history.

So my suggestion is making the main story locked in on a male possibility only...at least for some classes, like warrior, paladin...

Just because we live in a sexist world doesn't mean you should exclude women from playing what classes we want.

 

Why do you think women don't fight wars even today, with all this feminism culture going around with all the equality and stuff, cuz thats only good in the paper, in real life everyone knows the male is the strong and rational figure and the women is the emotional and weak creature.Men have more willpower to accomplish goals, that's why there arent many women Newton's around.

just my opinion, I admit I havent met every women in this planet, but so far, I'm pretty sure that's how it is for everyone of them, their purpose in life is just to find a strong man and cling to it.

You're not a very nice person :/ Edited September 16, 2012 by Emitan

[Troller]

Wow. Mr. 'Nigro' is obviously a troll. Posting stuff just to get a negative reaction. Cool.

Nope, I just have a different opinion than you, and I'm voicing my suggestions for the game.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

 

Oh you're serious? Let me laugh even harder.

[Troller]

Like the previous guy said well, it's just unrealistic to have women running around in full plate armor and fighting against men toe to toe, why bring realism into this?

Just leave women with the bikini armors, what's the big deal? they like to show off their features, and I, like any male, like to look at them.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Have their been many RPgs - where your PC is not pre determined - that forces you to wear chainmail bikinis? I can't think of one.

 

Tbh my main issue is mostly with the NPC's. Sometimes they can be a bit pandering. But i'm okay with that as long as I can toggle their clothes so it doesn't look like I'm running a brothel