In a bizarre switch everyone EXCEPT the government goes mad

[Walsingham]

Sorry I make it a point to not take advise on human nature from the guy that wrote the book on war.

 

Surely war is the harshest testing ground of theories of how we work as humans. Fantasies and grand theories are shredded like scraps of sail on a foundering galleon.

[Raithe]

Sorry I make it a point to not take advise on human nature from the guy that wrote the book on war. Oh, and if good is a human product and bad it's counterpart then they are both products. That's why ethics are so sketchy

 

Well, Sun Tzu did write about human nature. Considering that people have been using his advice in one form or another for around two millenia now, you have to say he probably had a fairly decent grasp on human nature.

 

Hell, he's the one that said the best general is the one who doesn't need to resort to force and solves the problem before armies have to start moving.

[Walsingham]

Sorry I make it a point to not take advise on human nature from the guy that wrote the book on war. Oh, and if good is a human product and bad it's counterpart then they are both products. That's why ethics are so sketchy

 

Well, Sun Tzu did write about human nature. Considering that people have been using his advice in one form or another for around two millenia now, you have to say he probably had a fairly decent grasp on human nature.

 

Hell, he's the one that said the best general is the one who doesn't need to resort to force and solves the problem before armies have to start moving.

 

Exactly. He's my favourite all round author. Plus you have to love the bit about marshalling troops.

 

HO LU, KING OF WU: Oooh. Nice military treatise. Sun Tzu, I see you've got some material here on managing soldiers, which has been a problem in the past. Mind if I give it a test?

SUN TZU: Sure.

KING HO: I don't wanna interrupt the soldiers right now. Can we use women? I've got a harem.

SUN TZU: I don't see why not. It's all valid regardless of who you apply it to.

KING HO: Oh, cool! (calls out the concubines)

SUN TZU: Okay, ladies. Ninety of you over there, ninety of you over here. You two - you're the royal favourites - each of you gets to be commander of one division. Y'all know the difference between right and left, forward and back, right?

CONCUBINES: *giggle* Yes, sir.

SUN TZU: Oy. All right, when I say right face, you turn right.When I say left face, you turn left. When I say about face, you turn around. Got that?

CONCUBINES: *giggle* Yes, sir.

SUN TZU: *sigh* Here. Swords. Halberds. Hold 'em for me, would you? Great. *cues signal drummers* Okay, everybody... riiiiight face!

CONCUBINES: *burst out laughing*

SUN TZU: Your Majesty, if words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame. Lemme explain this to the women again. . . Okay, ladies, we've gone over it again. Let's try this one more time. LEFT FACE!

CONCUBINES: *burst out laughing again*

SUN TZU: If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if his orders ARE clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers. *points to favourites* Off with their heads.

CONCUBINES / KING HO: Eeeeeeeek!

SUN TZU: I told you what you were supposed to be doing, ladies.

KING HO: But but but -

SUN TZU: A general in the field is not always bound by his sovereign's orders. Sorry, your Majesty, but that's the way it is. Okay, let's see... you two, you're the new leaders. *ahem* Right face!

 

The concubines, it is said, 'went through all the evolutions, turning to the right or to the left, marching ahead or wheeling back, kneeling or standing, with perfect accuracy and precision, not venturing to utter a sound.' Sun Tzu then offered to let the king inspect the troops, but the king was kinda squicked by losing his two favourite girls and declined. Sun Tzu asked if he was more interested in words than deeds; stung, the king acknowledged that Sun Tzu was better at managing recalcitrant people than he was, and made him a general. (My personal guess is, Sun Tzu would not have tried this if the king had been less of a wuss.) Sun Tzu went on to stomp the living daylights out of Wu's neighbour state Chu - you know, the river-crossers - and stormed right up to the capital.

 

This, combined with the moral component of command sums up my views on leadership in every respect.

[Orogun01]

Sorry I make it a point to not take advise on human nature from the guy that wrote the book on war. Oh, and if good is a human product and bad it's counterpart then they are both products. That's why ethics are so sketchy

 

Well, Sun Tzu did write about human nature. Considering that people have been using his advice in one form or another for around two millenia now, you have to say he probably had a fairly decent grasp on human nature.

 

Hell, he's the one that said the best general is the one who doesn't need to resort to force and solves the problem before armies have to start moving.

 

That is only one side of human nature, IMO what he had a grasp on was the psychology of warfare. He stresses the seriousness of it, with a minimalist approach that tried to avoid conflict altogether.

 

My point is that while "conflict reveals much about one's character" is the intent and the approach to this revelations that define one's true nature.

 

@Walsh: that specific anecdote is one of my favorite from him. If you like the Art of War you should try The Book of Five Rings, it delves more into personal combat than into strategy but is a good read.

[Walsingham]

My point is that while "conflict reveals much about one's character" is the intent and the approach to this revelations that define one's true nature.

 

Well, I am of the long held opinion that conflict is an inevitable concomitant of diversity, and that diversity should never be/can never be annihilated. Non-violent conflict should be the aim, as Sun Tzu says, but non-violence can always be ignored. If non-violence is ignored then the only recourse is surrender or violence. Or to use my favourite expression: you can ignore what I write with my pen, but you cannot ignore me poking you in the eye with it. Once you begin violent conflict then the physics of armed conflict apply, and you end up fighting with masses, and voila, we have war.

 

And as every good Obsidian fan knows... war never changes.

 

P.S. The Book of Five Rings sucks.

[Raithe]

If you liked Sun Tzu, you might want to have a gander at T'ai Kung's Six Secret Teachings, the Three Strategies of Huang Shih-kung or The Methods of the Ssu-ma. Just for the slightly more esoteric military classics from ancient china

[Walsingham]

If you liked Sun Tzu, you might want to have a gander at T'ai Kung's Six Secret Teachings, the Three Strategies of Huang Shih-kung or The Methods of the Ssu-ma. Just for the slightly more esoteric military classics from ancient china

 

Thanks I shalll certainly try to remember them for future perusal.

[Orogun01]

Well, I am of the long held opinion that conflict is an inevitable concomitant of diversity, and that diversity should never be/can never be annihilated. Non-violent conflict should be the aim, as Sun Tzu says, but non-violence can always be ignored. If non-violence is ignored then the only recourse is surrender or violence. Or to use my favourite expression: you can ignore what I write with my pen, but you cannot ignore me poking you in the eye with it. Once you begin violent conflict then the physics of armed conflict apply, and you end up fighting with masses, and voila, we have war.

 

And as every good Obsidian fan knows... war never changes.

 

P.S. The Book of Five Rings sucks.

 

What you say is true, and is one of the reasons why conquest is one of my preferred motivations for war. On the other hand I believe that the motivations for every war are economical and not diversity amongst cultures. Even if the human motivations where another they tie in with the economy.

 

P.S. I cannot look the other way on this comment. We shall duel at dawn tomorrow, and seeing as we both read the same book: one of us will show up late and the other early. Or in the most likely case no one shows up at all.

But seriously, I do find it more useful since is easy to apply to personal endeavors than The Art of War.