Removal of all Socialism in the US!

[lord of flies]

That's just irrational... Without the corporations, where exactly do you suppose people would work? Comintern? The investors put their money in and hope to reap rewards... What they do is risky; its just a form of gambling. Do you think that should be illegal too? Or, for that matter, anything other than being a factory worker?

They would work in local worker's communes or state-administrated business. I don't see what's so hard about this. There are many types of labor besides factory labor; computer programmers, for example, do labor despite rarely sweating over anything other than their large girth.

 

Anything gambling done for more than simply personal enjoyment is definitely pushing it, in any society.

[I want teh kotor 3]

So essentially you want to remove success from the equation, and replace it by homogeneity and arbitrarily imposed equality? You want to let talent and hard work go unrewarded? And what's so hard to understand here is that you somehow think this is good.

[Zachariah Tam]

Communes? State administered businesses?

 

Why would the government get involved in private business? That sort of defeats the purpose of being self sufficient, being innovative, and removes the ambition of bettering oneself. Instead of rewarding intelligence, skill, and dedication, you seem to want to punish it, LoF.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Zachariah Tam

[I want teh kotor 3]

Communes? State administered businesses?

 

Why would the government get involved in private business? That sort of defeats the purpose of being self sufficient, being innovative, and removes the ambition of bettering oneself. Instead of rewarding intelligence, skill, and dedication, you seem to want to punish it, LoF.

 

He doesn't believe in that.

[lord of flies]

"There's no such thing as a promotion, raise or other reward for anything other than investment. The government is incapable of rewarding hard or good workers, as are people themselves. The sky is a brilliant hue of green all the time."

- You guys

[Zachariah Tam]

What you propose is completely alien, LoF. Communism has shown itself to be a failure when the USSR fell. Countries that were communistic are finding better opportunities for economic growth under capitalism. Certainly you are not blind to this?

[lord of flies]

What you propose is completely alien, LoF. Communism has shown itself to be a failure when the USSR fell. Countries that were communistic are finding better opportunities for economic growth under capitalism. Certainly you are not blind to this?

Capitalism was proven a failure when the Weimar Republic fell. Countries that were capitalistic are finding better opportunities for economic growth under fascism. Certainly you are not blind to this?

[Zachariah Tam]

The Weimar Republic? Can't be that big of a failure since it didn't cascade in the downfall of other capitalistic countries nor broke up any capitalistic nations. The United States of America, the greatest capitalistic nation on this planet survived it. How did the USSR and China fare when Communism failed? Oh, yes, the USSR broke up into smaller countries and China began to embrace capitalism.

 

Have the US embraced fascism? No. Has the United Kingdom or Australia? No.

 

Your comparison is very lacking, LoF.

[I want teh kotor 3]

"There's no such thing as a promotion, raise or other reward for anything other than investment. The government is incapable of rewarding hard or good workers, as are people themselves. The sky is a brilliant hue of green all the time."

- You guys

Huh? It's the exact opposite, actually...

[lord of flies]

The Weimar Republic? Can't be that big of a failure since it didn't cascade in the downfall of other capitalistic countries nor broke up any capitalistic nations. The United States of America, the greatest capitalistic nation on this planet survived it. How did the USSR and China fare when Communism failed? Oh, yes, the USSR broke up into smaller countries and China began to embrace capitalism.

Counterpoints: Cuba, Sweden. Whoa, did I just blow your mind with how right I still am?

[Zachariah Tam]

Cuba is a cesspool. Why do you think there are so many people trying to risk going over the ocean in rafts to reach Florida. Sweden, like several European countries, follows a hybrid of socialism and capitalism.

 

So, no. You haven't blown anyone's mind because you are not right.

 

It was during the 1990's, there was an economic crunch that caused the Swedish government to reform its welfare system and allow greater role in privatization of public goods and services, which led them to join a more robust capitalistic organization in 1995 when it joined the European Union.

 

So sorry, LoF, you fail.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Zachariah Tam

[Trenitay]

I'm pretty sure Sweden is mostly a Social Democracy.

[lord of flies]

Cuba is a cesspool. Why do you think there are so many people trying to risk going over the ocean in rafts to reach Florida. Sweden, like several European countries, follows a hybrid of socialism and capitalism.

 

So, no. You haven't blown anyone's mind because you are not right.

Cuba is a cesspool? Look, if you're gonna just deny facts, why even bother posting? You can do that without even looking at the internet.

 

Cuba is a highly functional socialist democracy with an HDI equivalent to the better developing nations, and a surprisingly high GDP per capita.

 

"Some communist country failed" is very different from saying "communism failed," much like "some capitalist country failed" is very different from "capitalism failed." If the US collapsed, would that automatically mean that communism was right? No, of course not. Similarly, the collapse of the USSR was caused by the Brezhnev stagnation and the subsequent over-reaching attempts to liberalize by Gorbachev. Too much, too quick, too dead. The PRC could easily have maintained a socialist society if Deng and the other reformists hadn't done their dickery. What killed the USSR and the socialist economic system in the PRC was not "communism," it was liberalism.

Edited March 11, 2010 by lord of flies

[Zachariah Tam]

Sure, LoF. Enjoy your delusions.

[Guard Dog]

Sure, LoF. Enjoy your delusions.

Zach, a little inside advice here, getting the better of LoF on this subject is like eating jello with chopsticks; yes it can be done but the hassle far outweighs any satisfaction you might get.

[Zachariah Tam]

I'll take that under advisement. Frankly I think my last statement pretty much sums up my assessment of the poster.

 

Delusional.

[I want teh kotor 3]

I'll take that under advisement. Frankly I think my last statement pretty much sums up my assessment of the poster.

 

Delusional.

 

yup. Utterly.

[Humodour]

Cuba is a highly functional socialist democracy with an HDI equivalent to the better developing nations, and a surprisingly high GDP per capita.

 

Cuba is not a democracy. Cuba's HDI is equivalent to the worst of the developed nations (mainly by virtue of having many and excellent doctors), and their GDP per capita is $5,000 (Europe and the Commonwealth's are about $50,000 or so on average).

 

In Cuba you get imprisoned for giving away laptops. It is considered a subversive act. In Cuba, hundreds of people rot in prison, and the official reason is 'dangerousness'.

[Snk]

This topic deserves creating a forum account.

Cuba is a cesspool? Look, if you're gonna just deny facts, why even bother posting? You can do that without even looking at the internet.

Back at you because it seems denying facts is what you are doing most of the time.

 

As for myself i come from a former comunist country and let me tell you some of the differences:

1. communism: everyone was "employed" and jobs were collectively regulated, meaning that your pay was set up front no matter how worthwhile or useless your work was, how hard working or lazy you were, how well or poorly educated you were. Any ideas you had didn't count because they were not "party's" ideas. Only variation from this schedule, were it position, earnings or right to express your ideas, was throught connections to someone up higher. If you didn't have friends or relatives in party you were nobody. (and NO, government was COMPLETLY UNCAPABLE of promoting people based on merit)

now: most of things are opposite but there's one extra worth mentioning: whatever you do you are free to leave and seek other opportunities if you think you're beeing exploited by your employer

2. com: government planned what was worth producing and in what quantities, so if they planned on producing million reels of toilet paper that was it, never mind the demand. If you spent 10 hours in a queue you could be lucky enough to get 3 of those reels, if you didn't, well... you didn't wipe

now: companies/people produce, in general, what customers desire, there is no such thing as a shortage of products.

3. com: everyone thinking differently than collective/government was ultimatly wrong and considered dissident, hundreds of thousand of people spent decades in prisons because they dared to have own opinion on something. (or dared to make a joke of a party leader)

now: everyone's free to say their mind, even if it's total bs like "communism is great"

4. com: travel out of country was forbiden

now: i'm free to go wherever i like provided i meet some basic standards of country i'm going into

5. com: any and all kinds of publications were always censored, if party didn't like something then it was never published. Even informations like gross production of potatos was considered strategic and forbiden to reveal or seek, not to mention anything technical.

now: i can pursue almost any knowledge i desire

Some other random bits of the past:

I have a permit to own a rowing boat signed by then current prime minister himself,

I've seen a permit to transport a single pig from one field to another,

My father had to write a petition to party comitee explaining why he seeks to obtain a phone line and what would he do with it if he was given one

And one last bit on how well comunism rewards labourers: My father built his house with money he earned working on construction sites in Sweden. He did that work legaly according to swedish law but illegaly by our own, commie, law. So if he did exactly the same, physical (what commies praise as foremost and only true) work back in this country he'd be allowed to live in a government owned flat of 2 rooms, hall, kitchen and toilet assigned to him (and that big only beacause of having a family living with him).

Appart from all of the above communism will ALWAYS fail on one very simple principle: it lacks any means whatsoever of handling a difference of opinions. In communism someone (in practice it is nowhere close to collective, but even assuming it was) decides on a way to do things and any other input at best is ignored at worst is penalized. In any non-totalitarian form of government there are set laws and lines of conduct that allow for settlement of disputes and inclusion of ideas not originating from party leaders and in opposition to them.

[obyknven]

As for myself i come from a former comunist country and let me tell you some of the differences:

1. communism: blah blah blah

What is the communism?А то вы тут такую ахинею пишите! Edited March 11, 2010 by obyknven

[Snk]

А то вы тут такую ахинею пишите!

So why should i bother answering with anything more than this if you are so sure even before i write it that it's gona be bs?

[Humodour]

As for myself i come from a former comunist country and let me tell you some of the differences:

1. communism: blah blah blah

What is the communism?А то вы тут такую ахинею пишите!

 

Oh? Feel free to explain to us why communism ISN'T crap, mate.

[obyknven]

So why should i bother answering with anything more than this if you are so sure even before i write it that it's gona be bs?

Do you read "Das Kapital" by Marx?

 

proletarian revolution — In order to overcome the fetters of private property the working class must seize political power internationally through a social revolution and expropriate the capitalist classes AROUND THE WORLD and place the productive capacities of society into collective ownership. Upon this, material foundation classes would be abolished and the material basis for all forms of inequality between humankind would dissolve.

 

comunist country, yeah! They have described themselves as "socialist", reserving the term "communism" for a future classless society, in which the state would no longer be necessary (on this understanding of communism, "communist state" would be an oxymoron) – for instance, the USSR was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Marxists contend that, historically, THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY COMMUNIST COUNTRY. Within the socialist movement, there are a number of criticisms of using the term "communist states". Left communists, Anarchists and some Trotskyists point out the fact that the so-called "communist" or "socialist" states or "people's states" were actually state capitalist and thus cannot be called "socialist".

[Walsingham]

Never been a communist country? And that makes it ok, does it? I'm a scientist, fellah, and if someone has a theory and cannot demonstrate it working then we say that theory is balls.

 

Of course, this is not merely bad luck. The reason no country ever becomes 'communist' is - in a very crude nutshell - because the 'proletariat' seize power and then inevitably have to delegate power to a technical and bureaucratic elite. That elite has the problem of maintaining an unnatural state of affairs and has to resort to force to do so. The institutions which emerge to run both bureaucracy and force are inherently corrupt because they cannot accept criticism because criticism of the worker's paradise is heresy. Oppression, depression, and really **** plans for agriculture are the result.

 

None of this would bother us particularly if these were experiments done with lab rats, but this obsession with the communist fairy land results in experiments with human lives. The doctrine is not heroic, it isn't altruistic. It's the harming of others while in defiance of logic and observed fact and that, mate, is pathological insanity.

[Zachariah Tam]

So why should i bother answering with anything more than this if you are so sure even before i write it that it's gona be bs?

Do you read "Das Kapital" by Marx?

 

proletarian revolution