MI5 cover up torture

[lord of flies]

Googling "soviet dissenters" doesn't tell you anything about the Gulag. If you would care to cite some actual sources and offer some actual data rather than "hey, check out these fifteen different authors I just googled up," I'd be more than willing to go into depth.

What, you mean that if Google can find it, it's not a valid source? That's is a new low, even for you, tovarisch. Let me remind you, that ALL the evidence you have come up with so far is your own weak rhetoric ("they didn't cause the famines on purpose!"), a chart that as far as I'm concerned you made yourself, and some links in the past to the web of the "people's party of somethingorother". And now you demand that others deliver academic historiographical sources, when your own are merely one click removed from "I'm getting lucky". Pathetic.

 

I pointed you to Conquest's book "The Great Terror", which gives a figure of ~14 million murdered by the Soviet state. A figure that doesn't include unlawful killings by the RKKA in wartime, or various deportations including (but not limited to) that of Germans (Against their Will, p.279) or Latvians.

 

You also claimed that the RKKA didn't engage in any active genocide, which is a patent lie. Even if we write off the all too common unlawful killings, mass rapes and general mayhem as "lack of discipline", the mass deportations to labor camps ARE genocide.

If you're going to assume dishonesty on my part, why should I even bother to debate your childish bull****? "Labor camps are genocide"? Again, the Gulag was not a murder machine, unlike the Nazi concentration camps.

 

As an aside, anybody who says Stalin "perfected Lenin" with respect to Stalin's treatment of various Soviet ethnic groups is a complete, objective idiot (and that's not ideological; it's fact), so your source (that I can check right now) is obvious ****.

[213374U]

If you're going to assume dishonesty on my part, why should I even bother to debate your childish bull****? "Labor camps are genocide"? Again, the Gulag was not a murder machine, unlike the Nazi concentration camps.

Yes, mass deportation to labor camps on an ethnical basis IS genocide. Your squirming and attempts at semantic equivocation are evidence of your weak footing on this regard.

 

 

As an aside, anybody who says Stalin "perfected Lenin" with respect to Stalin's treatment of various Soviet ethnic groups is a complete, objective idiot (and that's not ideological; it's fact), so your source (that I can check right now) is obvious ****.

Your calling it "****", without providing any evidence doesn't make it so. That's the website of a Latvian museum which, understandably, don't portray Soviet atrocities kindly. But regardless of the tone used in that page, Operation Priboi IS a historical fact, unlike the pseudo-intellectual gibberish you insist on mortifying us with.

[lord of flies]

Yes, mass deportation to labor camps on an ethnical basis IS genocide. Your squirming and attempts at semantic equivocation are evidence of your weak footing on this regard.

What, so imprisoning people on the basis of ethnic identity is genocide? Don't tell that to the United States, then.

Your calling it "****", without providing any evidence doesn't make it so. That's the website of a Latvian museum which, understandably, don't portray Soviet atrocities kindly. But regardless of the tone used in that page, Operation Priboi IS a historical fact, unlike the pseudo-intellectual gibberish you insist on mortifying us with.

lol not even. It is historical fact that Lenin and Stalin's nationalities policies wildly diverged, to the point that Stalin's treatment of the nation of Georgia in the Georgian affair was what made Lenin hate Stalin (unfortunately, Lenin was dying by that point). If your article can't manage to correctly state facts I know, why should I trust it to do so for facts I don't?

 

Besides, "kulak" and "bourgeois democrat" are not, despite your best efforts to claim otherwise, ethnic groups.

[213374U]

Yes, mass deportation to labor camps on an ethnical basis IS genocide. Your squirming and attempts at semantic equivocation are evidence of your weak footing on this regard.

What, so imprisoning people on the basis of ethnic identity is genocide? Don't tell that to the United States, then.

Misdirection. It's the USSR we're talking about (because YOU brought it up, too). "But you're worse!" is no defense, even if it were true.

 

 

lol not even. It is historical fact that Lenin and Stalin's nationalities policies wildly diverged, to the point that Stalin's treatment of the nation of Georgia in the Georgian affair was what made Lenin hate Stalin (unfortunately, Lenin was dying by that point). If your article can't manage to correctly state facts I know, why should I trust it to do so for facts I don't?

More misdirection AND style over substance. Can't you post even once without incurring in one or several obvious fallacies? What does that have to do with the mass forced relocations implemented by the Soviets after their annexation of the Baltics?

 

Stick to the point, use reputable sources to back your claims, and stop running circles.

 

 

Besides, "kulak" and "bourgeois democrat" are not, despite your best efforts to claim otherwise, ethnic groups.

German, on the other hand, is.

[lord of flies]

Misdirection. It's the USSR we're talking about (because YOU brought it up, too). "But you're worse!" is no defense, even if it were true.

Actually, if you'd check the topic, you'd see the discussion is "Did the Soviets do anything equivalent to what the Nazis did?" So "But you're worse!" is a perfectly valid defense, and, in fact, the crux of the argument.

More misdirection AND style over substance. Can't you post even once without incurring in one or several obvious fallacies? What does that have to do with the mass forced relocations implemented by the Soviets after their annexation of the Baltics?

 

Stick to the point, use reputable sources to back your claims, and stop running circles.

Style over substance? What does that have to do with this? If I can't trust your source on one subject, I can't trust your source. If your source was written in broken, misspelled English and didn't include obvious falsehoods, then I might have fallen prey to the "style over substance" fallacy. Edited February 24, 2010 by lord of flies

[213374U]

Actually, if you'd check the topic, you'd see the discussion is "Did the Soviets do anything equivalent to what the Nazis did?" So "But you're worse!" is a perfectly valid defense, and, in fact, the crux of the argument.

Not even close. While the point may have originally been that, you have denied that the Soviet Union engaged in ANY sort of genocide. So, that's what we're discussing presently. And even then, the US don't factor in this anywhere.

 

 

Style over substance? What does that have to do with this? If I can't trust your source on one subject, I can't trust your source. If your source was written in broken, misspelled English and didn't include obvious falsehoods, then I might have fallen prey to the "style over substance" fallacy.

More squirming. You are focusing on an aspect of that website that YOU claim is inaccurate, which is tangential to the point we're discussing - and are then using it to dismiss whatever valid historical data it may contain.

 

Just because you are ignorant of facts, it doesn't mean those things didn't happen. I have provided specific sources, you haven't. I'm done wasting time with you.

 

 

German, on the other hand, is.

Well?

[Killian Kalthorne]

Nazis committed genocide.

Soviets committed genocide.

The US committed genocide.

Ottoman Empire committed genocide.

Several nations in the course of human history committed genocide.

 

It doesn't matter who did it worse, who didn't it better, who did it a lot, or who did it less.

 

Genocide is genocide, period. No matter the reason, no matter how much or how little it is done, no matter the justification: IT IS WRONG.

[Walsingham]

Well, we all committed genocide on the neanderthals...

 

Anyway, In the Court of the Red Czar goes into extensive detail about how much the inner circle knew about the famine, and its deliberate causes. Causes rooted in the notion that the 'rich' farmers had to be punished for willfully resisting the reallocation of their labour and belongings. Reallocation which our red chum over there dearly and gleefully anticipates happening worldwide. Massive revolutionary 'engineering' which also killed millions in China and Cambodia. but do not fear NEXT time it will all be fine

 

I can't be bothered to hunt out references, because it would be far more challenging to find references which DIDN'T make the case I've put forward. Seriously, just wander out and have a look in the first book you (other forum readers) find.

[213374U]

I can't be bothered to hunt out references, because it would be far more challenging to find references which DIDN'T make the case I've put forward. Seriously, just wander out and have a look in the first book you (other forum readers) find.

Thanks. I feel like an idiot now. ;C

[Killian Kalthorne]

Just now? I kid! I kid!

[Walsingham]

I can't be bothered to hunt out references, because it would be far more challenging to find references which DIDN'T make the case I've put forward. Seriously, just wander out and have a look in the first book you (other forum readers) find.

Thanks. I feel like an idiot now. ;C

 

Your approach was far funnier, tho.