Wrath of Dagon Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 http://www.videogaming247.com/2009/01/08/m...pear-at-gdc-09/ New level creation process apparently, good luck with that, something definitely needs to be done about ME's awful level design. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 They're talking about the leveldesign process, actually. But when they start doing that, they ought to announce ME2 there also. Is GDC actually an event were game announcements are usual? Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshape Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 http://www.videogaming247.com/2009/01/08/m...pear-at-gdc-09/ New level creation process apparently, good luck with that, something definitely needs to be done about ME's awful level design. Oh please it's hardly as bad as Halo! I came up with Crate 3.0 technology. Crate 4.0 - we shall just have to wait and see.Down and out on the Solomani RimNow the Spinward Marches don't look so GRIM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) http://www.videogaming247.com/2009/01/08/m...pear-at-gdc-09/ New level creation process apparently, good luck with that, something definitely needs to be done about ME's awful level design. Oh please it's hardly as bad as Halo! Some of the environment art was weak. Especially the Citadel looked so clean, boring and...you know, that Star Trek architecture. The bar was an alltime low. They better create levels for ME2 both visually and for gameplay purposes more interesting this time. Edited January 8, 2009 by Morgoth Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Some more detail: http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/static/EkF...ZkZwZkDxEiW.php Which Halo are you talking about Nightshape, and why are you comparing a shooter to what's supposed to be an RPG? "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshape Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) Some more detail: http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/static/EkF...ZkZwZkDxEiW.php Which Halo are you talking about Nightshape, and why are you comparing a shooter to what's supposed to be an RPG? You mentioned level design when infact, I think you mean environment artwork... Level design is generic as it is concerned with gameplay flow etc... Most level design in ME is influenced by it's shooting gameplay mechanic, so it's viable. Halo has VERY BAD level design, and by Halo I MEAN HALO!, Not Halo 2 or 3. Edited January 8, 2009 by Nightshape I came up with Crate 3.0 technology. Crate 4.0 - we shall just have to wait and see.Down and out on the Solomani RimNow the Spinward Marches don't look so GRIM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Halo was the forerunner to copy and paste level design. I enjoyed the levels in Mass Effect. I liked the super cleanliness of the Citadel because the Keepers kept it that way. The bad part of level design was the planet surfaces of sideplanets. Could have been much, much better in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diogo Ribeiro Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 An alanschu draws near! Command? *Fight *Parry *Magic *Item *Run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshape Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Halo was the forerunner to copy and paste level design. I enjoyed the levels in Mass Effect. I liked the super cleanliness of the Citadel because the Keepers kept it that way. The bad part of level design was the planet surfaces of sideplanets. Could have been much, much better in that regard. I find it hard to even consider the general planets as levels... They seem procedurally generated(Doesnt not mean they are). I came up with Crate 3.0 technology. Crate 4.0 - we shall just have to wait and see.Down and out on the Solomani RimNow the Spinward Marches don't look so GRIM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 No, I meant exactly level design, although the art design was also awful. Who knew the alien future looks like garages and strip malls? Halo was the forerunner to copy and paste level design. I enjoyed the levels in Mass Effect. I liked the super cleanliness of the Citadel because the Keepers kept it that way. The bad part of level design was the planet surfaces of sideplanets. Could have been much, much better in that regard. All games use copy and paste to some extent. While Halo was particularly guilty of that on some levels, it mixed things up enough so it was still entertaining. It also had some great levels, some open, some restricted, allowing both the player and the enemy multiple approaches. And the Citadel wasn't just clean, there was literally nothing there. Like I said, you'd have more fun walking through a mall. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidesco Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Halo was the forerunner to copy and paste level design. I enjoyed the levels in Mass Effect. I liked the super cleanliness of the Citadel because the Keepers kept it that way. The bad part of level design was the planet surfaces of sideplanets. Could have been much, much better in that regard. I find it hard to even consider the general planets as levels... They seem procedurally generated(Doesnt not mean they are). The planets in ME were a height map and a random number generator. "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian touristI am Dan Quayle of the Romans.I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.Heja Sverige!!Everyone should cuffawkle more.The wrench is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Halo was the forerunner to copy and paste level design. I enjoyed the levels in Mass Effect. I liked the super cleanliness of the Citadel because the Keepers kept it that way. The bad part of level design was the planet surfaces of sideplanets. Could have been much, much better in that regard. I find it hard to even consider the general planets as levels... They seem procedurally generated(Doesnt not mean they are). The planets in ME were a height map and a random number generator. False. It was a height map, randomly generated. Plus there were a few prefabs. Pure level design genius. Even a friggin N00b could have designed more interesting "uncharted worlds". Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Yes, and their quests were from a random text generator. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 No, I meant exactly level design, although the art design was also awful. Who knew the alien future looks like garages and strip malls? Halo was the forerunner to copy and paste level design. I enjoyed the levels in Mass Effect. I liked the super cleanliness of the Citadel because the Keepers kept it that way. The bad part of level design was the planet surfaces of sideplanets. Could have been much, much better in that regard. All games use copy and paste to some extent. While Halo was particularly guilty of that on some levels, it mixed things up enough so it was still entertaining. It also had some great levels, some open, some restricted, allowing both the player and the enemy multiple approaches. And the Citadel wasn't just clean, there was literally nothing there. Like I said, you'd have more fun walking through a mall. Halo's outdoor levels were phenomenal. Once things went inside (like the library), it was ****. If it wasn't for little arrows on the floor telling you which way to go, you'd get mired in the familiarity and actually gouge your eyes out, instead of just wanting to gouge your eyes out. And I guess "all games" use copy and paste to some extent if you include things like textures and whatnot. Or maybe that bookcase or something. As for structure of levels and the geometry that make them up, that's not true in the slightest. I can forgive houses and whatnot looking the same, or some of the buildings in Mass Effect since some stuff like that is standardized. But when things like mines and caves are exactly the same in every way...that is not cool (and boo Mass Effect for that too). The story related levels (including the Citadel) were fine though. Sure it would have been nice to have more things to interact with in the citadel, but that doesn't mean that there aren't things there. Seriously, what should be there? You want more random plants laying around? More idle chatter amongst the people (or perhaps more people wandering around)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Rorie Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 They're talking about the leveldesign process, actually. But when they start doing that, they ought to announce ME2 there also. Is GDC actually an event were game announcements are usual? GDC traditionally has not been intended for press, but over the past few years, especially since E3 began to scale back in intensity, the SF GDC has become much bigger in terms of product demonstrations and announcements, mostly because all of the major online outlets are based in SF. (It's a 10 minute walk from GameSpot and 1up to the Moscone Center, where the SF GDC is held, and IGN is a 15 minute drive away.) So a lot of companies try to kill two birds with one stone and do the usual dev-focused stuff at GDC while also doing press-targeted stuff, either at GDC or in visits to the website offices. Matthew Rorie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Seriously, what should be there? You want more random plants laying around? More idle chatter amongst the people (or perhaps more people wandering around)? How about some actual frigging purpose for the thing, instead of pure filler? If you want good level design in a similar situation, look at Taris in KOTOR or Peragus in K2. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 The story related levels (including the Citadel) were fine though. Sure it would have been nice to have more things to interact with in the citadel, but that doesn't mean that there aren't things there. Seriously, what should be there? You want more random plants laying around? More idle chatter amongst the people (or perhaps more people wandering around)? I agree that the story related missions very adequately fine. Some better (the proteans ruins), some less stellar (ice planet, concrete hallways). I wished they'd have skipped the uncharted worlds completely, and instead extend the story missions by length and quests, or even add another planet. Now the Citadel however felt disappointing. Visually, it wasn't very striking (I remeber Taris from Kotor actually amazed me when I entered it the first time). Unintereting architecture, and overall confined feel, and badly used space. It felt more like a movie set, less an actual space station. More disappointing however was the lack of interaction (i.e. quests you could accept). There's really room for improvement. Gears of War 2 showed that UE3.x can manage both detailed and huge levels easily. Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshape Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) No, I meant exactly level design. Well you're going to have to explain that one to me... Because I feel like I'm on a whole other book than you. I found ME's level design complemented the gameplay extremly well. Other than the crappy planet generation, I cannot think of a single instance of bad LEVEL design which had a negative impact on the gameplay experience, and didn't work within the confinds of the gameplay mechanic. You mention the Citadel, and complain (from what I can see) about NPC's... Too few, too many, who knows... I'm not grasping your angle. Edited January 8, 2009 by Nightshape I came up with Crate 3.0 technology. Crate 4.0 - we shall just have to wait and see.Down and out on the Solomani RimNow the Spinward Marches don't look so GRIM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I believe the most common complaints about level design in Mass Effect are the use of the same "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidesco Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Seriously, what should be there? You want more random plants laying around? More idle chatter amongst the people (or perhaps more people wandering around)? How about some actual frigging purpose for the thing, instead of pure filler? If you want good level design in a similar situation, look at Taris in KOTOR or Peragus in K2. "This poop here is awful, don't you agree? It's not like this other poop, over here, which is much more awesome." "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian touristI am Dan Quayle of the Romans.I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.Heja Sverige!!Everyone should cuffawkle more.The wrench is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I enjoyed the random planets. And the fact is they were optional for the most part, so it's a silly complaint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidesco Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 The planets were optional but they were a pretty big optional. The majority of the game is the side planets. If you take away the side planets, Mass Effect is the probably shortest RPG I've ever played. Even shorter than MotB. "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian touristI am Dan Quayle of the Romans.I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.Heja Sverige!!Everyone should cuffawkle more.The wrench is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I enjoyed the random planets. And the fact is they were optional for the most part, so it's a silly complaint. So are romances, NPC conversations, and all side-quests. Only about 15% of many western RPGs isn't optional. Really, many times when I play an RPG, I do so for the optional contant. Fallout 3 is a great RPG (for me) but the main quest is boring; it's all the other stuff I like. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshape Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I believe the most common complaints about level design in Mass Effect are the use of the same I came up with Crate 3.0 technology. Crate 4.0 - we shall just have to wait and see.Down and out on the Solomani RimNow the Spinward Marches don't look so GRIM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Seriously, what should be there? You want more random plants laying around? More idle chatter amongst the people (or perhaps more people wandering around)? How about some actual frigging purpose for the thing, instead of pure filler? If you want good level design in a similar situation, look at Taris in KOTOR or Peragus in K2. You could make the same argument for any bonus areas. If you beeline through it and just deal with the Council, you're hardly there at all. The Citadel actually reminded me a lot of the Telos station (wasn't it even called the Citadel as well?), without the loading screens. I agree with Morgoth...more story related stuff would have been much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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