Purkake Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) Deus Ex 3 complete with regenerating health. Stolen from the Deus Ex 3 forums. Quote:Originally Posted by Ren Edited February 21, 2009 by Purkake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Umm, you're late to the outrage. This was revealed in the PCZone 100th issue last November IIRC. Yeah, I know. but I had never seen an official stance on the rationale behind it. I'm not oppposed to health regen per se, but I think the rationale of avoiding health pickups because they require exploring a level is really super super weak. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) Umm, you're late to the outrage. This was revealed in the PCZone 100th issue last November IIRC. Yeah, I know. but I had never seen an official stance on the rationale behind it. I'm not oppposed to health regen per se, but I think the rationale of avoiding health pickups because they require exploring a level is really super super weak. Yeah that is stupid. When there are two paths/doors in a game I always figure out the way I'm supposed to go and then check out the other one first. The problem with exploring used to be the Mario style "go off the path and find some random stuff". The medkit shouldn't just lie around in a dark alleyway, it should be in a place that makes sense. Health in bathroom closets, hospitals, pharmacies... Weapons in weapon lockers(in places where it makes sense)... In Bioshock it looks like the health and eve fairies sprinkled the levels with medkits and eve hypos. Also no exploring in Deus Ex 3 = utter fail. Exploration was one of the cooler parts of Deus Ex, I remember being very happy to find the crate with biobattery and lockpick right under the dock where you start and all the cool stuff in the sunken shipwreck on the other side of the island. Edited February 21, 2009 by Purkake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hell Kitty Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Quote:Originally Posted by Ren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 In Bioshock it looks like the health and eve fairies sprinkled the levels with medkits and eve hypos. That's true. But even worse, imo, is that there is an infinite supply of everything in the vending machines. Why even bother scattering stuff around a level when the player can go to a vending machine and buy whatever they want without limit? System Shock 2 had the same basic system, but the nanites you had were a precious resource that could not be wasted. The whatever-you-call-it in Bioshock (the Bioshock version of nanites) were easy to find and not the least bit precious. Especially since rezzing was free in Bioshock but cost nanites in SS2. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Er, what exactly is wrong with that? And how on earth do you go from regen health to worrying about exploration? I'm currently playing Thief 2, and that game is all about exploration, whereas health conservation isn't an issue. Speaking of Thief, the reason LGS chose not to allow the player to carry over supplies from mission to mission is because they wanted players to use the tools given to them, rather than horde them for later and ultimately never use them. It's a similar issue for EM, they don't want people worrying about health conservation, they don't want players searching every nook and cranny for just for health kits, they want people to explore for the reasons Maria Caliban mentions. It's kinda like the whole debate about unlimited ammo in Alpha Protocol, people rage against it without first thinking about it. Most FPS already feature virtually unlimited ammo because ammo conservation plays little to no part is so many of them, it's a trivial matter at best. I feel the same way about health, if I am always going to have a decent supply of health kits available to me, you may as well give me unlimited health. Neither DX game had a strong survival element, we always had a decent amount of items available to use. Before games like Halo and Call of Duty 2, did FPS developers spend time debating whether their game should feature health bars and first aid kits, or was it just the done thing? I'm guessing it's the latter. It's the same reason iron sights are so common in FPS now, it's just the done thing. There doesn't need to be some complex rationale for feature in a game. I don't understand the need to differentiate exploring for health vs exploring for other things. You explore to find health, ammo, loot, all to help you survive. Its all part of the fun. If you find more health, you can play differently then if you find less. Just giving a player all the free health they want isn't as interesting. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Quote:Originally Posted by Ren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) In Bioshock it looks like the health and eve fairies sprinkled the levels with medkits and eve hypos. That's true. But even worse, imo, is that there is an infinite supply of everything in the vending machines. Why even bother scattering stuff around a level when the player can go to a vending machine and buy whatever they want without limit? System Shock 2 had the same basic system, but the nanites you had were a precious resource that could not be wasted. The whatever-you-call-it in Bioshock (the Bioshock version of nanites) were easy to find and not the least bit precious. Especially since rezzing was free in Bioshock but cost nanites in SS2. It felt like they wanted to keep the stuff from SS2, but then forgot about the fact that they made the game so easy that you had no use for the extra stuff. Finding another clip of ammo just isn't exiting anymore when you already have more than enough for a small army. Why can't I find a better version of a weapon or something that looks cooler by exploring? It's always something that I already have or some stupid extra concept art or some audio log. All the cool stuff is placed at eye level and made to glow in bright purple so that even the blind can't miss it. Edited February 21, 2009 by Purkake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hell Kitty Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) I think the rationale of avoiding health pickups because they require exploring a level is really super super weak. Removing health pickups because you don't want the player to explore doesn't even make any sense. So I guess it's a good thing that isn't their rationale at all! the designers didn’t want people exploring levels just for health packs or having to reload to an old save game because they messed up a scenario and couldn’t advance. This is the exact reason the Call of Duty series now uses regen. Its developers want players to move from one intense action scene to another, they don't want players to get to the end of a battle and search around for a health kit because they are too injured to continue, and feel the need to reload because they are too injured to continue. You survive the battle or you don't. I know some people actually liked the exact scenario I just described but this is a decision the team made. He even addresses your "Its all part of the fun" point. They know many people like that aspect it's just not something they are doing. While it may be part of the fun for some, the fun isn't dependent on it. It's still based around making decisions which have consequences, selecting from a multi-path, multi-solution approach in a non-linear space, and you're able to customize your character as well as your weapons. DX3 is an action/RPG just like the first game. When it comes to freedom, having space to search and roam in, and to run the streets and sewers, don't worry - we have that. Regenerating health is simply the removal of the health-kit hunt element, that's all. It doesn't effect exploration is any other way. If you find more health, you can play differently then if you find less. In theory, sure. In practice it's never been an issue for me, thanks to an abundant supply. Never once have I needed to go looking for health specifically, it's always something I come across while doing everything else. It's always something that I already have or some stupid extra concept art or some audio log. Woah, you don't like finding audio logs? Without those Bioshock and the System Shocks would be much lesser games in my eyes. Logs were always the most interesting thing for me to find. Edited February 21, 2009 by Hell Kitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) This is the exact reason the Call of Duty series now uses regen. Its developers want players to move from one intense action scene to another, they don't want players to get to the end of a battle and search around for a health kit because they are too injured to continue, and feel the need to reload because they are too injured to continue. You survive the battle or you don't. That would be an issue if the games weren't easy enough to play through by a blindfolded drunk who had never seen a video game in his life. I'd rather watch a movie than play a game where all you do is go from room to room mowing down enemies without worry for ammo, health or tactics. Regenerating health is simply the removal of the health-kit hunt element, that's all. It doesn't effect exploration is any other way. When was the last time you had to actually hunt down a medkit in a game? There's usually so many of them that you could use them as ammunition. Edited February 21, 2009 by Purkake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I'm not anti-health regen in any militant way. I just question the removal of reasons to explore, especially in a game like Deus Ex, which is an exploration based-game. In a straight shooter, where exploration isn't so important it is a more valid reason. In a game like Deus Ex, it really isn't. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Umm, you're late to the outrage. This was revealed in the PCZone 100th issue last November IIRC. Games are really going overboard with the "immersion" these days. Running over medkits is far from perfect, but hiding under a table to magically "regenerate" health is even worse. Dead Space decided to remove the HUD and put the health meter on your body. It didn't increase my "immersion" in any way and made checking my health a pain in the ass when I needed it ie when I'm getting mauled by 3 monsters. No one said that the regenerating health was for immersion. And while we're at it, every DX game has let you magically regain health. Yes, it would be easier if the health bar stood still. It would also be easier if the monsters held still. Dead Space simply takes the basic idea of a shooter - the player must track objects on the screen in real time - and applies it to health and ammo. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 And while we're at it, every DX game has let you magically regain health. Yes, but only at the expense of finite resources. Trade bio energy for health, but risk not having it for other things. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) Umm, you're late to the outrage. This was revealed in the PCZone 100th issue last November IIRC. Games are really going overboard with the "immersion" these days. Running over medkits is far from perfect, but hiding under a table to magically "regenerate" health is even worse. Dead Space decided to remove the HUD and put the health meter on your body. It didn't increase my "immersion" in any way and made checking my health a pain in the ass when I needed it ie when I'm getting mauled by 3 monsters. No one said that the regenerating health was for immersion. And while we're at it, every DX game has let you magically regain health. Yes, it would be easier if the health bar stood still. It would also be easier if the monsters held still. Dead Space simply takes the basic idea of a shooter - the player must track objects on the screen in real time - and applies it to health and ammo. The immersion comment was less about Deus Ex and more about games in general, I guess. I find that moving the HUD into the game added nothing to the gameplay and only made the game more annoying. Then again I don't like survival horror games and hate using game mechanics to increase the difficulty. "Oh my god will I be able to go through this clumsy and poorly designed menu to get to my medkit or will I have to try again, the horror is blood chilling." Edited February 21, 2009 by Purkake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hell Kitty Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) When was the last time you had to actually hunt down a medkit in a game? Probably playing GTA4. Do you have a point in asking me this? I just question the removal of reasons to explore, especially in a game like Deus Ex They aren't removing reasons to explore, that's just something you've latched on to. Regen doesn't alter exploration at all, because all those other reasons to explore, they're all still there. Edited February 21, 2009 by Hell Kitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 They aren't removing reasons to explore, that's just something you've latched on to. Regen doesn't alter exploration at all, because all those other reason to explore, they're all still there. They are removing one key aspect of exploration: find enough health to stay alive. There's no reason to do that in an exploration game. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 When was the last time you had to actually hunt down a medkit in a game? Probably playing GTA4. Do you have a point in asking me this? My point is that you usually get more than enough medkits without having to look any further than the ground ahead of you. Saying that they have health regeneration because they don't want to have you hunting down medkits is not very convincing because I don't think I've ever run out in a recent game. I don't hate health regeneration, but I don't think that it adds anything either. I'd rather open my inventory and heal up than wait a minute till my health regenerates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 [i find that moving the HUD into the game added nothing to the gameplay and only made the game more annoying. I agree completely. Far Cry 2 did the same. The HUD was invisible most of the time, so you never know how much health you had. I had to rpess the reload key which would bring up the hud. It was far more immersion breaking than simply having a health meter on screen at all times. In a game you don't have a real body to kbnow how much you've been injured; the health meter IS the representation of your real body. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) And while we're at it, every DX game has let you magically regain health. Yes, but only at the expense of finite resources. Trade bio energy for health, but risk not having it for other things. That's an all together different argument. We Edited February 21, 2009 by Maria Caliban "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 [i find that moving the HUD into the game added nothing to the gameplay and only made the game more annoying. I agree completely. Far Cry 2 did the same. The HUD was invisible most of the time, so you never know how much health you had. I had to rpess the reload key which would bring up the hud. It was far more immersion breaking than simply having a health meter on screen at all times. In a game you don't have a real body to kbnow how much you've been injured; the health meter IS the representation of your real body. I agree, though I found Dead Spaces' approach to be much worse. It looked like a bug or an annoying feature in Farcry 2 when your HUD disappeared, but it was still nicely readable. In Dead Space I never knew whether I had full health or almost full and some monsters take away a whole bunch of your health while others don't take almost any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moatilliatta Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 They aren't removing reasons to explore, that's just something you've latched on to. Regen doesn't alter exploration at all, because all those other reason to explore, they're all still there. They are removing one key aspect of exploration: find enough health to stay alive. There's no reason to do that in an exploration game. You never had that to start with since medkits were more than plentiful in Deus Ex. Personally I think there are far worse decisions than the regenerating health question (which I'm against for other reasons), like the graphics and some other things I'm forgetting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 And while we're at it, every DX game has let you magically regain health. Yes, but only at the expense of finite resources. Trade bio energy for health, but risk not having it for other things. That's an all together different argument. We Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hell Kitty Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) They are removing one key aspect of exploration: find enough health to stay alive. This is simply wrong. "Finding enough health to say alive" is not a "key aspect" of exploration. I already mentioned Thief, which you yourself said earlier has a better quality level of exploration than DX, and finding health plays a very minor part. Most of the health potions you get are bought between missions, very few potions exist in the actual missions, and you can never rely on them being in a mission at all, they're something you stumble across while completing your objectives and searching for loot, and as such finding health plays little part in the game. In Hitman: Blood Money, (another exploration heavy game, much more so than DX) finding health plays no part in the game. You have to complete your mission with the life bar you start with, or if you have purchase the upgrade between missions, a single health shot. Edited February 21, 2009 by Hell Kitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 They aren't removing reasons to explore, that's just something you've latched on to. Regen doesn't alter exploration at all, because all those other reason to explore, they're all still there. They are removing one key aspect of exploration: find enough health to stay alive. There's no reason to do that in an exploration game. You never had that to start with since medkits were more than plentiful in Deus Ex. Personally I think there are far worse decisions than the regenerating health question (which I'm against for other reasons), like the graphics and some other things I'm forgetting. What about the graphics? Do you mean the weird art style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 If that's the key reason for exploration, then the developer is doing something wrong. DX is not L4D, where you contantly hunger for healing. Making staying alive a key reason for exploration in a game where people are shooting at you with plasma rifles is doing something wrong? I don't understand what you mean. How can it not be a key, even THE key, aspect of exploration. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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