Deus Ex 3

[Humodour]

@Krezack

those ain't weasel words Krezack. Weasel words have to be deliberately imprecise. Impresise words are fine in non-anonymous exchanges since you can safely assume that a person saying "most people" refers to most people he/she knows about.

 

You can't safely assume that. I have no clue who 'most people' are that you refer to, and it would seem you mean 'most people who ever played Deus Ex' which is definitely weasel words territory.

 

Anyway, semantics.

 

Anyway the detachment is when your aiming is affected by your skills, since this tend to lead to scenarios of "I shot him right in the noggin why didn't he fall dead?". I didn't feel like that either but since I know people who felt like that and know about people who felt like that I tend to chalk my own not feeling it up to me being primarily an RPG player and not expecting my aim to be that of my character.

 

That's not a fault of the skills system. I've seen this handled various ways inclusive of a skills system and without it. Heck even most generic FPS games don't have 100% accuracy. It's a feature in those cases, and I think it's a feature here. I know Josh hates it, but I disagree with him.

 

It also justifies closing in on an enemy before shooting, as well as the use of scopes, laser sights, skill mods, crouching/standing, running/walking, steadying hands, etc. I definitely think it was designed the way it was meant to be.

 

It's things like these they tried to dumb down for Average Joe in Invisible War that made it unappealing to the game's original followers.

 

ME and AP are two different way of getting around that with ME gicing you a huge mother****er of a crosshair and AP limiting itself to adjusting other stuff than aiming. I'm not sure how well either of them works.

 

Um, Deus Ex also did the huge cross-hair thing, remember? The smaller the cross-hair, the better your accuracy.

 

I think Deus Ex handled the system well. Now, Vampire: Bloodlines on the other hand - that's a game whose system you can complain about (although even then I personally didn't care).

[Humodour]

@Hurlshot

The Paul one did last throughout the game, correct. The Lebedev one wasn't referenced much as far as I remember. Most of them did little except change a bit of dialogue or whether a person is in one place or dead.

 

What happened to Carter if you told him to stay in UNATCO? I seem to remember that he died but I'm unsure.

 

Unless one considers being chewed out by Manderly for choosing to go into the women's bathroom a choice and consequence. lol.

Good example.

 

you mean Jaime i assume?

 

if you told him to stay there you'd see him in Paris and he could get you Gunther's killphrase (or if you hadn't gotten Anna's and killed her the old fashioned way a Aug Upgrade Cannister i think)

 

Yes, I think Carter always leaves UNATCO regardless. As Shryke says if you ask JAime to stay and spy for you you get the killphrase; if you tell him to split he smuggles out an AUG cannister. In either case he meets JC in PAris and passes along the appropriate item. That's about the extent of player choice in the game.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think DX was fab, but still at it's heart it is a very linear first-person shooter. AN excellent one, of course.

 

The thing is, Deus Ex offered a straight path with a wide degree of lateral variation on the way. You call that linear, but I really don't think that's accurate.

 

Fallout offered a straight path as a guide with a wide degree variation in all directions. You'd be right in considering it more non-linear than Deus Ex, but that doesn't simply make Deus Ex linear.

 

By comparison, Half-Life 1 was completely linear (much as I love that game, and much as its combat was very non-linear).

[alanschu]

They have biomechanical augmentations, so may be tiny internal robots that repair your tissues? I think those kinds of experiments are being conducted now.

The point is that the prequel suddenly introduces something that the guy in the original could have used. He can use it but it costs an augmentation slot, why does JC suddenly need an augmentation slot for something that was apparently available before his time? It doesn't make sense unless they have some really wicked explanation that magically fits into the overall story.

 

 

Perhaps it comes preinstalled on the guy?

 

I really don't think this is that significant of a continuity error.

[alanschu]

I remember the first time I saved Lebedev by killing Anna (I blew her up with a LAM lol). I felt good that I had done something positive (if blowing somebody up with a LAM can ever have a positive side),. But then I got to the next briefing with Manderly and I was told that Lebedev escaped but we tracked him down and a killed him anyway. And I was like WTF? WHy did I even bother then? If the narrative doesn't support my actions, why is it even in the game?

 

It didn't ruin the game for me or anything, but I think it was at that point I really understood that the vast freedom of choice in methodology was not mirrored by a vast freedom of choice in the narrative.

 

At the same time, I hate it when games make the player the sole influence in the entire setting. I actually don't mind it if the game doesn't work out exactly the way I expected it to based on my choices because other things happen.

 

You complain because Lebedev didn't survive. So? UNATCO isn't just you, and even though you bought Lebedev some time, it's not like JC sparing Lebedev's life should guarantee Lebedev's survival.

 

 

I won't dispute that Deus Ex presents the illusion of choice, but I don't mind that. Especially since on my first playthrough I won't know any better, and realize they were just illusions of choice on subsequent playthroughs didn't tarnish the game for myself. However, even if a game provides you real choice, doesn't mean that everything should always work out the way you expect it to.

[Slowtrain]

You complain because Lebedev didn't survive.

 

I'm not really complaining that Lebedev didn't survive though. I'm just pointing out that my decision to save Lebedev, which the game couches as being a pretty important choice, had no consequences or results to differentiate that course of action from a course of action where I just let Anna kill him or even kill him myself as ordered. He is merely dispatched off screen and the story continues. It disappointed me at the time, but that was more a result of my incorrect expectation that the game was deeper than it really was. Once I realized that there was little choice in how the narrative would unfold, I adjusted my expectations and still loved the game.

 

However, even if a game provides you real choice, doesn't mean that everything should always work out the way you expect it to.

 

I totally agree. Not only do I agree, but I think such should happen a lot more in games than it does.

[Magister Lajciak]

Deus Ex 1 was a pretty good game. I tried it but I did not own a copy of my own, but some of my acquaintances did, and money was relatively tight at the time, so unfortunately I only got to play it partially and never got round to buying the game. I have not played Deus Ex 2 at all, so I cannot comment on that one. Based on Deus Ex 1, though, I might well buy Deus Ex 3.

[Morgoth]

So I've just seen the pictures of Deus Ex in the magazine and some of it looks pretty crap. Some of it fails at being a prequel and looks like somthing that would have been after Deus Ex.

 

The weapon they're showing seems to have forgotten that most weapons in Deus Ex (if not all) weren't particularly stylished. Apparently the police guys also have some serious armour on that doesn't exctly remind me of the ones in Deus Ex. Ain't gonna be the graphics that decides whether Deus Ex will be good though.

The joke is that DX3 is supposed to be settled in 2027, but deriving from the scans that looks more like 2127. The somewhat exaggerated style is questionable, but that blonde dude with the Crysis Nanosuit and these mutant like face just looks silly. Kinda like Small Soldiers meets Deus Ex or what?

[Hell Kitty]

The stealth system sounds idiotic.

 

How on earth can you consider it idiotic when all we know about it is that stealth simply means staying out of view? Shadows didn't even play a part in the original, it was always more like MGS, you had to stay out of view, unlike the system in such games as Thief and Splinter Cell where you can stand right in front of someone, face to face, but you're completely invisible because you're 100% in shadows. Speaking of MGS, according to the article there is even an aug that shows the player the NPCs field of view.

 

FOr example: for swimming you could either a) take the aqualung augmentation or b) develop your swimming skill or c) use inventory space to carry a couple rebreather units. Or you could overcome a poor weapon skill by modding the crap out of a weapon.

 

I know that DX received some criticism for this apparent "redundancy", but I always thought it made developing your character much more interesting.

 

I saw a video a while back where Harvey Smith mentioned IW "fixing" this redundancy by combining all these different options into one biomod, but realizing that having all these options felt better to players because as you say it made developing your character much more interesting, even if your choices all lead to the same place.

 

Deus Ex has a rep for being a game where decisions matter, when they don't.

 

Yeah I never understood that, DX was here is your objective, complete it however you want. It was more like Thief or Hitman, dropped into a large area and left up to your own devices, with a story that was pretty much just as linear as those (totally linear) games. I believe that back when DX was called "Shooter" it was even going to be mission based like those games.

 

I always thought that the difference between medpacks and auto-heal was that the former allowed for a sorta survival/horror kind of gameplay, this didn't work in the original Deus Ex obviously as Medpack and general healing was handed out gratuitously, but that's a balancing question.

 

I don't have any problem with health-kits, but I prefer regen if careful rationing doesn't play a big part in a game. Playing through Crysis made me think of DX with the different suit modes using energy. I'd like to see something like that in a DX game, right down to your energy being used as a shield when no augs are active, and the way energy usage depends on what you are doing rather than simply draining slowly away.

 

Has anyone played Battlefield: Bad Company? I've only played the demo, but rather than health kits or regen, the player carried a syringe device, that when used would restore your health and would slowly recharge before you could use it again. This removes the health kit hunt element of so many FPS, as well as stopping players hoarding items they never use, but still leave healing up to the player. I'd actually prefer energy regenerate automatically like Crysis, but health being like B:BC.

 

The point is that the prequel suddenly introduces something that the guy in the original could have used. He can use it but it costs an augmentation slot, why does JC suddenly need an augmentation slot for something that was apparently available before his time? It doesn't make sense unless they have some really wicked explanation that magically fits into the overall story.

 

If Adam Jensen has the ability to go prone, do the developers need to come up with an explanation as to why JC Denton could only crouch? Being that I prefer regen I'd rather they just include it for gameplay reasons, without the need to stick to what DX used or make up some kind of silly explanation as to why things were better in the past.

 

So I've just seen the pictures of Deus Ex in the magazine and some of it looks pretty crap.

 

I actually really like the "Renaissance meets Cyberpunk" thing they've got going on. It's like they're doing the opposite of Thief 2 (awesome art deco awesomeness) -> Thief 3 (boring dark ages boringness), and just like those games there is no reason to explain the change because there isn't really any in-game way to do so. I really like the style compared to the merely functional DX graphics. And of course anything is an improvement on the DX:IW "lets use the same few textures on everything" approach to graphics.

 

I also love the mechanical GitS style augmentations.

 

At the same time, I hate it when games make the player the sole influence in the entire setting. I actually don't mind it if the game doesn't work out exactly the way I expected it to based on my choices because other things happen.

 

I'm the same. It's far more believable that way.

 

I totally agree. Not only do I agree, but I think such should happen a lot more in games than it does.

 

Amen sister!

 

that blonde dude with the Crysis Nanosuit and these mutant like face just looks silly.

 

Sillier than old Gunther Hermann? Not really. The Barrett character is far more in keeping with the style of the original than the renaissance style is.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Hell Kitty

[Gorgon]

I thought 'cover based' meant whether the coppers know who you are or not. Like in Hitman where you can kill 5 guards, put on a new suit, and you would be more or less safe as long as you didn't dance around anyone. Glad to know thats not the case.

 

As for cover versus shadows, I dunno, like everything it's in the execution. There's probably going to be a version of the mod that renders temporary invisibility as well as the one that makes you run silent.

[Magister Lajciak]

One thing I like about shadows being used for stealth is that it's easy to tell whether you are in the shadows or not. This is less clear with a cover-based system, though a cover-based system is more realistic.

[Hell Kitty]

I thought 'cover based' meant whether the coppers know who you are or not. Like in Hitman where you can kill 5 guards, put on a new suit, and you would be more or less safe as long as you didn't dance around anyone. Glad to know thats not the case.

 

Angry Internet Men in other parts of the web all seem to have assumed "cover system" means something like Rainbow Six Vegas, and then there is this:

 

[quote name='Ren

Edited October 5, 2008 by Hell Kitty

[Slowtrain]

One thing I like about shadows being used for stealth is that it's easy to tell whether you are in the shadows or not. This is less clear with a cover-based system, though a cover-based system is more realistic.

 

 

I don't know. Unless you are looking at your avatar from outside it can be difficult to tell just how concealed by shadow you are. WIthout Thief's stealth gem it could be difficult to tell, even crouching or standing or drawing a sword could make a differnce to how concealed you were. Plus you never really know how much the AI is "allowed" to notice. So, some kind of concealment indicator would seem to be neccessary regardless of whether stealth is shadow-based or cover-based.

 

I'm still not really sure what cover-based means, other than perhaps if cover blocks line of sight, then you can't be seen. But cover usually causes shadows, unless you are in some sort of really well-lit area that has multiple light sources, so the difference seems to me not that big a deal one way or the other.

 

More info required.

[Magister Lajciak]

Yes, I would imagine cover means no line of sight.

 

Good points on the desirability of a 'stealth indicator'.

[Morgoth]

Didn't they somewhere say a Gears of War like cover system? Does that mean it will be a third-person shooter, or will they handle that like in Brothers in Arms? Anyway, I don't like it if the camera zooms out and I can look over corners. The cam better stays in first-person or else...

[Wrath of Dagon]

The real problem with regenarating health for me is that it allows you to take a lot more chances during combat. You can run and gun, and so long as you have a sliver of health left, you're fine. Which is OK if the objective is just to survive each individual battle, but not if the obective is to properly approach the entire situation, as it should be in this kind of game.

[Morgoth]

Having regeneration, I suppose the action will be more twitchy and game-y. No preperations or study of the scene needed when engaging battle. You just hop in, kill stuff, then hide behind a cradle (!) to charge health again, and repeat the process. Unlike when you're low on health and only have one medpack left, this sort of forces you to plan your strategy more carefully.

[Gorgon]

Like that happens a whole lot. Anyway the difficultly level can generate the same scenario.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Gorgon

[Morgoth]

Like that happens a whole lot. Anyway the difficultly level can generate the same scenario.

I don't know about you, but back then when I first played DX I was often shot to a cripple, having no Bioenenergy or health packs left, so I just pulled through. It was stimulating, to say at least. Having aotogenerating just completely removes this sort of situation. On the other side, I can understand that it's more likeable by people because it isn't so frustrating. Hell, even I must admit playing Crysis without the autohealing would have drove me nuts.

[Magister Lajciak]

I am undecided on the autohealing issue. I can see both pros and cons in the system. If they do have autohealing, however, I do hope that it is explained away by some kind of biomod the character has implanted from the start and not just left as a gameplay feature without in-game explanation.

[alanschu]

Having regeneration, I suppose the action will be more twitchy and game-y. No preperations or study of the scene needed when engaging battle. You just hop in, kill stuff, then hide behind a cradle (!) to charge health again, and repeat the process. Unlike when you're low on health and only have one medpack left, this sort of forces you to plan your strategy more carefully.

 

 

There is nothing stopping you from playing the game in such a way that you have to plan a strategy though.

[Gorgon]

I disagree on crawling through a map looking for a medkit to stick on your shot up leg being stimulating. Anyway in most cases you will have hoarded kits because you can. Or you would have maxed out the regen bio mod.

 

In DX you would only rarely encounter these 'stimulating' hard situations you could get out of by some brilliant tactical analysis. Wishful thinking that all this is contingent on medkits.

[Morgoth]

I am undecided on the autohealing issue. I can see both pros and cons in the system. If they do have autohealing, however, I do hope that it is explained away by some kind of biomod the character has implanted from the start and not just left as a gameplay feature without in-game explanation.

I think explaining that stuff should be the least problem for the designers. I mean you're a super-duper-augumentated "mutant", so it's like you're a super-hero from a Comic. I just hope they don't go too far with that, because one thing that DX really made so great was that it still stood on both feed on the realism-rug, so to speak.

[Magister Lajciak]

I am undecided on the autohealing issue. I can see both pros and cons in the system. If they do have autohealing, however, I do hope that it is explained away by some kind of biomod the character has implanted from the start and not just left as a gameplay feature without in-game explanation.

I think explaining that stuff should be the least problem for the designers. I mean you're a super-duper-augumentated "mutant", so it's like you're a super-hero from a Comic. I just hope they don't go too far with that, because one thing that DX really made so great was that it still stood on both feed on the realism-rug, so to speak.

 

I agree that it wouldn't be a problem for them to explain it, especially within the context of Deus Ex, but I would nonetheless like them to explain it, rather than just have it in the game, but leave it unexplained.

 

As I said, I don't really know what gameplay approach I prefer in this regard.

[Gorgon]

That said, being shot up and being crippled to some degree, for instance having to re route your systems to regeneration and being unable to use other functions, walking with a limp, limited combat ability. It actually sounds like an interesting gameplay element. And there would be no magical return to full function by clicking a health kit. This would punish charging in blindly and reward careful planning.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Like that happens a whole lot. Anyway the difficultly level can generate the same scenario.

Difficulty level with autohealing only affects individual battles. What happens in one battle has no bearing on the next battle. However if you have limited healing resources per game level, you have to be careful about expending too much of it in any one battle, and thus may have to rethink your whole approach. Sure, you can still take the careful approach even without incentive from the game, but then you're not really competing against the game, which is kind of the point.