The ending of KOTOR2: huh? (SPOILERS INSIDE)

[Seeker1]

This whole post is one giant spoiler, so let me SPOILER WARNING you right now, I would have to black out this entire thing otherwise, the bottom line is I can't talk about the game's endings without spoilers, so, you're warned...

 

... I know the reasons for this, the game was rushed out the door, the various teams -- "Team Exile" "Team Gizka" and "Team Bantha" are working to restore what was cut ...

 

but I gotta say the ending to the game really doesn't make sense as is.

 

First off, I finally get many of my team mates to become Jedi (I succeeded with Atton, Handmaiden, and Mira; I must have missed the dialog to do it with Bao Dur and from what I read you only have a one time shot and obviously I missed it as he never would dialogue with me at all after a certain point).... but this was near the end of the game so I had no chance to level any of them past level 1 or 2 jedi ... sheesh. That aside, I figured this might figure into the endgame plot ... but other than being told that this is something BAD about my character at my second trial on Dantooine (why is attracting followers and helping them become Jedi BAD so that I must be punished for it?) ... not only couldn't I level them but I was in a big disappointment when I found out they wouldn't help at all in the endgame on Malachor V ... the bottom line is it doesn't even seem to influence what Kreia tells you about their futures, let alone influence the ending.

 

The second trial on Dantooine doesn't make sense to me. The game is hinting that the Jedi Council are wrong for condemning me both times (the first and the second), but essentially they are telling me the second time that the reason I need to be cut off from the Force again is that I attract followers and bring them to the Force. Huh? That's BAD and I need to be PUNISHED for it? Kreia saves me from punishment, but given that I find out she's a Sith Lord at the end, it doesn't seem to be for noble reasons. It's almost like she agrees with them that I am the key to destroying the Force and wants to stop them from preventing me from doing so. Yet, I am the one who stops her. It's all so weird.

 

Anyway, the endgame is just crap. It's basically just my lone character with no team mates, fighting hordes of storm beasts, then gaggles of Sith, then fighting two boss battles (Sion and Traya), with the ultimate one actually being easier than the penultimate one, which is weird. There's a cutscene to a Mira vs. Hanharr final confrontation (why do this again? they already fought once?), which appears pointless as Mira walks toward where I am but nooooo she does not join me to help me out after all. And then a weird little bit where I play as Bao Dur's remote. The fact that it starts out with the remote viewing the holovid of Bao Dur saying "if you are viewing this" suggests to me that Bao Dur is dead, but the game never really says that. I don't get the point of the remote "minigame". The remote gets upgraded during the game but that appears to be pointless as the puny laser they add to it can barely scratch a storm beast. AFAICT, there's only one point to the remote minigame. If you clear out all the storm beasts as the Exile, the remote can do its stuff. If you don't, the remote will be killed by the storm beasts. BTW, I only realized this after screwing up once, because as the exile I didn't clear the path to one ship and the remote died on the way to getting to it. But, other than that, all the remote has to do is just go visit the four terminals. That's it. No challenge to it ... provided you cleared out all the beasts first. Then we get a cutscene where the G0T0 droid shows up and threatens the remote and would seem to prevent what the remote was doing from succeeding ... except that never happens. Huh? (Yes, from what I've read, there was supposed to be additional content here with HK-47 saving the remote from G0t0's droid ... presumably after installing its "selfless" pacifist protocol.)

 

So what are we doing at the end anyway? Pulling up the shadow generator? Why? Activating it the first time caused all the problems. Are we activating it a second time to destroy Malachor V or activate a self destruct sequence? This is never really clear. Malachor V seems to be destroying itself as we fly away at the end, so it seems to be the latter.

 

And that ending (LS). Sheesh. No movies about the fate of your companions. You have to ask Kreia/Traya about their fate, apparently her impending death gives her omniscience, but I really would have enjoyed actually watching what happens rather than this being given in the form of dialogue. She never says anything about the droids. And the connections you make with Visas, Handmaiden, Mira ... nothing is ever hinted about whether they will maintain any kind of connection with you (romantic or otherwise) ... the fact that I made Handmaiden and Mira Jedi nothing is really said about although there is a hint they are the "Lost Jedi" I was tasked with finding which will be important for restoring the Order down the road... where are you going on your ship at the end? Presumably beyond the Outer Rim to join Revan, although there is no indication of who else is alive and did you leave Mira on the planet because she clearly is? ... like I said the game makes you suspect Bao Dur died in the crash and the G0T0 droid was killed along with the remote. (Of course, despite crashing and falling into the chasm, the Ebon Hawk flies out unscathed at the end anyway.)

 

The motivation of it all makes no sense ... I notice there is another thread on this. What exactly IS Kreia/Traya trying to do? Activate the shadow generator to destroy the Force? But I thought YOU were the key to destroying the Force and she wants you to live/survive so you can do so. Yet, if she is omniscient, she must know you are going to stop her at the end. (But what are you stopping her from doing? She never even mentioned the generator in her final dialogues.) She is revealed to be Sith at the end .. Darth Traya (and I understand this was another late change, as the original version of the game would have Atris revealed as Traya)... yet she seems to hate both the Sith and the Jedi and the Force in general, not favoring either side, Light or Dark. She really seems more like a Gray Jedi, or something else, wanting to end the Force so that the Dark and Light Sides of it will stop battling each other. (It actually reminds me of one of Michael Moor****'s novels, where the final task of the Eternal Champion is to destroy the Balance itself.) It certainly doesn't make her "evil" like Nihilus or Sion, both of which she seems to be using/manipulating just as she manipulated you. I just found it weird that she is so "Neutral" throughout the game ... Influence with her being dependent on not being EITHER "too" dark or "too" light ... yet turns out to be Sith at the end. Didn't really make sense, although the cutscenes of her doing things behind your back all the time made it painfully obvious to me she had a hidden agenda, as did the G0T0 droid.

 

BTW, I rarely took her with me on missions, as that missing hand made her unable to dual wield the double bladed lightsabers I kept getting. ;-P The XP boost and force chain she gives is nice, although I only found out later that dialogues with her are critical on the ship, towards the end of the game, for such things as getting your prestige class, or making Handmaiden Jedi (which seemed to upset her OR please her her response is kind of strange), learning telepathy, or upgrading your personal lightsaber crystal (I learned too late you need to do this OFTEN, every time after you level up). Basically, useless for missions, but talk to her on the ship. A lot. Now I know. P.S. I took away all her equipment before the end because I peeked at what was going to happen, but this did not seem to weaken her for the final battle. ;-P

 

I don't get what Atris is up to at the end either. Somehow I suspect this was messed up by a late decision to make Kreia Darth Traya and not Atris. The weird thing is the final dialogue with Atris makes it seem like she had feelings for you too ... even of a romantic nature. Weird. AFAICT, she was trying to do something good, but she decided to use the Sith Holocrons to find out what the Sith were up to, and this corrupted her and made her bad and so they "fed" on her. Or something like that. At least that got Handmaiden to finally tell me her name, Brianna, and pledge undying loyalty, too bad she disappears from the game after that.

 

The Korriban visit is just bizarre. I was WINNING my showdown with Sion there, then Kreia forced me to escape ... come on now, don't force me to quit when I'm winning ... I find Vash only to find she's dead (yes apparently there was an alternate plotline where she isn't .. another cut) ... I find Revan's holocron only to find out it isn't working. And AFAICT the entirely optional Secret Tomb which is supposed to prepare you for your final challenges ... does nothing except make you revisit your past and seems to have little other point. And you have to kill gaggles of beasties just to get there. Sheesh. Once again, visiting it doesn't in fact seem to affect the endgame.

 

So there I am the end blasting off to join Revan. Or am I? I seem to be the only one Omniscient Kreia-Traya can't see the destiny of, so I guess there are three paths ahead of me. Atton seemed to be the only one who could actually fly the Ebon Hawk, so he must be alive. Other than that, I have no idea who's alive or dead and the "fate of" dialogues I get seem to concern the distant future, not the immediate future. Heck, I'm even told when Mira is going to DIE and it's not at the hands of Hanrarr, even though I spared him. Obviously, given that I have "fate of" dialogues for several companions, they must be alive. The fact that the ending seems to be a painful setup for a sequel (KOTOR 3) is painfully obvious, it's almost like all this was just some complicated rigmarole to get me to join Revan "beyond the Rim" and that was the real point of everything. (It reminded me of Sheridan's decision to go "beyond the rim" at the end of Babylon V.) Dunno. It was unsatisfactory in many ways, both in terms of play (why the hell play as solo for most of the ending, then get one quick and dirty solo mission for Mira than have her disappear, then get one pointless solo mission as the remote), and plot.

[refuse]

I think you misunderstood what happens when you confront the Jedi Masters on Dantooine. They don't condemn you for bringing people to the Force, but rather for the unique Force ability you have of influencing and manipulating people around you. Kreia makes that point in dialogue when she says that people follow you regardless of their alignment and goals. Obviously Jedis would see that ability as capable of corrupting not only yourself, as the Exile, but also cruely manipulating others. Furthermore I think it aludes somewhere in that trial, or later in the game end, that the reason the Sith Assassins have been as successful as they've been at taking out Jedis and driving them to near-extinction, is that their teachings are based around events and abilities related to the Exile's role and Force power. In that respect, the Jedis see the Exile as the root of the evils that plague everyone else.

 

On Malachor V, the way the game plays out is that you either want to destroy or preserve the planet, to make sure neither Kreia nor her teachings will survive or not, depending on aligment. As to why none of your NPCs properly appear, the obvious answer would be that they are incapacitated or still in the Ebon Hawk when the Exile runs around trying to find Kreia. It seems more than likely that Bao Dur's 'sacrifice' refers to cut content about his death earlier in the game, or perhaps his arm, during the Mandalorian Wars. With regards to the fate of your companions, Kreia can't tell you about the droids because they are inanimate creatures and she also has trouble reading Bao Dur's mind (as she also says earlier in the game when she helps you reconnect to the Force) because of his alien language or whatever.

 

I don't think that Kreia (or ANY jedi/sith for that matter) has the ability to accurately predict the future, hell, even Yoda and Palpatine (arguably amongst the strongest Force users from both sides) can't predict their own future. As to her motivation, it is to destroy the Force, plain and simple. What faction she decides to join at any given time, she only does in order to further her own goal. She uses Sith powers not because she is a 'conventional' Sith, but because that will allow her to manipulate the Sith to bring their own demise. Think of her as an arms dealer who's trying to see WMD's to two opposing armies if you will. She will side with each other to gain their trust and ultimately be the death of both.

 

The Atris bit is pretty much as you describe it; she thought she could use the Sith Holocrons without being corrupted, but she failed. The exposure of her romantic feelings is a hint towards this; after all, Jedis are not supposed to fall in love with one another, right? Her having suppressed those feelings was one key to her falling, as far as I can tell, therefore it doesn't warrant going into a whole explanation or anything about it, beyond it being a reason for her fall, a weakness. She was also trying to rebuild the Jedi Order herself and I gather the intent of the game developers was for the Older Jedi order to die (either you or eventually Kreia killing the remaining masters and Atris falling), so that the Exile and his/her band of merry men and women become the basis of a newer Jedi Order.

 

I think you may have misunderstood quite a lot because you refer to cut content. The problem is that after that cut content was removed, the game was probably given a bit of a polish to iron out some of the plot problems, making that cut content appear to contradict or overly-complicate the game plot as it is. I'd suggest you complete the game a few times, with different aligments/gender and changing NPCs often enough to go through as many dialogue options as you can, in order to get a better understanding of the story.

[Petra]

The forum refuses to post more than the allowed amount of quote blocks, so I had to make a few posts instead.

 

I was in a big disappointment when I found out they wouldn't help at all in the endgame on Malachor V ...

From reading about cut content I gathered that they were supposed to play a bigger role at the end of the game. Kreia would be attacked by all of them at once, then Atton would fight Sion, T3\Goto\HK-47 would be concerned with the Mass-Shadow Generator. Not sure about others. As it is, I guess only Mira's part wasn't completely cut from the game, although who knows what she was supposed to do once she got to the Academy.

 

the reason I need to be cut off from the Force again is that I attract followers and bring them to the Force. Huh? That's BAD and I need to be PUNISHED for it?

I think that the Council considered the Exile attracting followers not to the Force, but to the dark side of it. It was stressed that they were scared of what they saw in the Exile. Perhaps they didn't believe that the Exile could act despite of it.

Besides, the Exile's influence on companions was supposed to be anomally high. They'd do whatever she wants, would kill if she wanted them to, etc. Probably the Council considered it too much an anomaly, a manipulation of the will of others.

 

The Kreia saves me from punishment, but given that I find out she's a Sith Lord at the end, it doesn't seem to be for noble reasons. It's almost like she agrees with them that I am the key to destroying the Force and wants to stop them from preventing me from doing so. Yet, I am the one who stops her. It's all so weird.

I think it's a nice plot twist

But it'd be nice if the Player wouldn't have to kill Kreia. I personally see no reason for that, especially if Player is DS. No reason other than Kreia simply wanting to have a duel to the death.

 

Anyway, the endgame is just crap. It's basically just my lone character with no team mates

I agree, I was suprised that the Exile was alone on Malachor's surface, and there was no inkling of what happened to others after crash-landing. Even more I was surprised that Bao-Dur was dead, according to the hologram of his remote.

 

two boss battles (Sion and Traya), with the ultimate one actually being easier than the penultimate one, which is weird.

I think both of them were too easy. It always took only a few Master Flurry hits on Difficult setting to send Sion to replenish his health. Kreia had more vitality, but still too easy for a Sith Lord.

Powerful magician should fight differently than stupidly standing on one spot, imho. E.g. Sion could will the ceiling to collapse over the Exile's head, that would be very impressive. The Exile would have to run away to avoid it. He could force the Exile to run away from that room and seal the door or something, since he didn't want the Exile to go past him (at least if you play a female Exile). Then he could chase the Exile through the whole Academy, doing many impressive magical things, like resurrecting all those Sith students that she killed before...

There was much that could be done to make Sith Lords truly impressive. It's sad that the developers prefer short duels.

 

There's a cutscene to a Mira vs. Hanharr final confrontation (why do this again? they already fought once?),

Kreia set this up much earlier when she revived Hanharr, in order to kill Mira later. But I agree it makes little sense, since Mira wasn't so strong that Kreia couldn't have killed her on her own and needed Hanharr for that

 

 

which appears pointless as Mira walks toward where I am but nooooo she does not join me to help me out after all.

That bugged me, too.

 

other than that, all the remote has to do is just go visit the four terminals. That's it. No challenge to it ... provided you cleared out all the beasts first.

Can't you fly quickly past the beasts? I cleared them up as the Exile, so I'm not sure if there's no challenge at all. Maybe you had to fly and maneuver your way past them.

 

Then we get a cutscene where the G0T0 droid shows up and threatens the remote and would seem to prevent what the remote was doing from succeeding ... except that never happens. Huh? (Yes, from what I've read, there was supposed to be additional content here with HK-47 saving the remote from G0t0's droid ... presumably after installing its "selfless" pacifist protocol.)

Well, I didn't think that Goto was going to prevent anything, to be honest, up until I read about it in team Gizka's forums. He just said "we'll wait for the General's orders", it didn't even sound as if he wanted to prevent anything.

 

Are we activating it a second time to destroy Malachor V or activate a self destruct sequence? This is never really clear. Malachor V seems to be destroying itself as we fly away at the end, so it seems to be the latter.

You know, I'm unsure why it would even help. I mean, destruction was what caused Malachor V to become such a bad place, and destroying it once again would make it even worse, logically. But considering that the content about the Mass-Shadow Generator's purpose is missing, we can only guess.

[Petra]

Of course, despite crashing and falling into the chasm, the Ebon Hawk flies out unscathed at the end anyway.

Yes, I noticed how funny it was, too

 

But I thought YOU were the key to destroying the Force and she wants you to live/survive so you can do so. Yet, if she is omniscient, she must know you are going to stop her at the end. (But what are you stopping her from doing? She never even mentioned the generator in her final dialogues.)

This is why I think that Kreia wanted to die... Besides, Sion said "She's willing to sacrifice herself for you". It matches.

I think that the generator was the Exile's and Bao-Dur's idea, and it was needed to destroy the Trayus Academy. Kreia wouldn't want it destroyed.

As for what she was doing, my best guess is that she wanted the Exile to win the duel to become stronger than her and to have better chances at destroying the force if she would want to do it. At least there was no option of converting the Exile to the dark side or joining Kreia in the dialogues, so I think Kreia didn't want the Exile to be converted, she only wanted to fight to death.

As for what Kreia had to be stopped from, well, from being a Sith Lord, I guess... So if LS, it was assumed that the Exile would want to destroy a sith, and if DS, she'd destroy a master to become a master herself instead of apprentice.

 

Influence with her being dependent on not being EITHER "too" dark or "too" light ... yet turns out to be Sith at the end. Didn't really make sense, although the cutscenes of her doing things behind your back all the time made it painfully obvious to me she had a hidden agenda, as did the G0T0 droid.

I think that it was supposed to look like she fell to the full dark side eventually, instead of being neutral. Betrayed the Exile.

Although I agree, it isn't logical that she did it. She'd have better chances to talk the Exile into destroying the Force if she were her trusted teacher

 

BTW, I rarely took her with me on missions, as that missing hand made her unable to dual wield the double bladed lightsabers I kept getting. ;-P

I took her everywhere with me It was logical that your teacher would watch you and comment

As for lightsabers, you can just set her to Jedi Support instead. I found it nice to be the one fighting, while my companions did Lihgtning Storms, etc.

 

upgrading your personal lightsaber crystal (I learned too late you need to do this OFTEN, every time after you level up).

What do you mean, how can you upgrade your personal crystal? I didn't know that it was upgradable...

 

I don't get what Atris is up to at the end either.

Kreia mentioned that she knows Atris without knowing her, because Atris "walks her path". I guess Atris was supposed to become Darth Traya eventually. Then the Exile would have a real reason to kill her (or save her), and Kreia would just remain neutral, pointing at stupidity of Jedi\Sith wars.

 

I was WINNING my showdown with Sion there, then Kreia forced me to escape ... come on now, don't force me to quit when I'm winning ...

Indeed, but Kreia's idea was that Sion would keep fighting you endlessly and would eventually wear you out and kill you. It makes sense.

 

I find Revan's holocron only to find out it isn't working.

A friend told me that it should work if you're DS, but I didn't check yet. Need cheats for that.

 

And AFAICT the entirely optional Secret Tomb which is supposed to prepare you for your final challenges ... does nothing except make you revisit your past and seems to have little other point. And you have to kill gaggles of beasties just to get there. Sheesh. Once again, visiting it doesn't in fact seem to affect the endgame.

I find the tomb very nice anyway. It was simply interesting to see Malak in youth, to glimpse the guilt in the Exile's soul (she sent her outnumbered soldiers to die), and especially to be faced with choosing what's more important, Kreia or your companions. I honestly couldn't choose for a long time, too bad that you couldn't pass to the next door without killing Kreia. It was a precise prophesy, though, in the end of the game you couldn't spare her life either.

I don't know why they showed you the future of darksiders Revan and the Exile fighting, maybe Obsidian were sure they'd be the ones to make KOTOR3 I hope they will be.

[Petra]

Atton seemed to be the only one who could actually fly the Ebon Hawk, so he must be alive.

As I recall, Atton could die in the battle with Sion Interesting. Who'd fly the ship then?

 

why the hell play as solo for most of the ending, then get one quick and dirty solo mission for Mira than have her disappear, then get one pointless solo mission as the remote

I only liked to play solo in the Academy, because it was finally some challange. Overall the game was easy, so it felt good to be alone there. Six people rushing you, that was exciting!

But yes, I missed the companions, too. And it didn't help that the Acedemy was empty, I only glimpsed a couple of dining tables there. Even though on the map you could see "Beast pen" marked and many other interesting places that were supposed to be furnished.

 

I guess what's done is done, the game will never be truly complete. So I hope for a sequel that wouldn't be rushed like KOTOR2, from Obsidian, not Bioware, since Obsidian has much more interesting ideas...

 

Overall, nothing definite can be said about the ending, since it's tightly linked to why Revan travelled to the Unknown Regions, and there's nothing definite in the game about it. It just boils down to him finding some greater enemy, and the Exile wanting to help him fight that greater enemy. *shrug*

I'd say that the game plot and the ending aren't connected, because the game was about Kreia wanting to destroy the Force. It had nothing to do with Revan's goals, but we suddenly get the ending about Revan.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Petra

[DAWUSS]

There's a cutscene to a Mira vs. Hanharr final confrontation (why do this again? they already fought once?),

Kreia set this up much earlier when she revived Hanharr, in order to kill Mira later. But I agree it makes little sense, since Mira wasn't so strong that Kreia couldn't have killed her on her own and needed Hanharr for that

 

Because of the storyline between those two. The Wookiee wanted revenge, and Kreia was willing to give it to him.

[Seeker1]

or later in the game end, that the reason the Sith Assassins have been as successful as they've been at taking out Jedis and driving them to near-extinction, is that their teachings are based around events and abilities related to the Exile's role and Force power. In that respect, the Jedis see the Exile as the root of the evils that plague everyone else.

 

I just don't get that. At the end of the game, I was practically brimming with Light Side energy, having done LS stuff throughout the game. I had brought several people over to the LS as Jedi (Mira, Handmaiden, Atton). Even Visas was moving toward the Light side. And then they accuse me of being part of the Dark Side?

 

There are hints by characters throughout the game that the real problem with the Jedi isn't you or anybody else, the reason they keep losing to the Sith is some flaw in their own Code. I wonder if judgementalism isn't that flaw. I just felt like I was getting a raw deal for the second time. Like how dare they do this to me AGAIN? Of course, maybe you are SUPPOSED to feel that way. I didn't approve of Kreia killing the remaining Jedi, but I sure thought it was right for her to save me.

 

Obviously, the Sith are doing something right, because I was bumping into hundreds of them by the end of the game, whereas the remaining Jedi were indeed far and few between -- and many of them like the people who judged me were buttheads.

 

As to why none of your NPCs properly appear, the obvious answer would be that they are incapacitated or still in the Ebon Hawk when the Exile runs around trying to find Kreia.

 

It seems some were killed, some like Mira were thrown from the crash and knocked unconscious, it's just that sans dialogue or cutscenes you have no idea as you go into the endgame what happened to them, just that they aren't there -- and the final ending doesn't clarify matters.

 

She will side with each other to gain their trust and ultimately be the death of both.

 

Her answer to the question of whether or not she is a Sith is an interesting one -- it sort of hints that she's willing to "wear" the title but sees herself as something beyond that.

 

I think you may have misunderstood quite a lot because you refer to cut content. The problem is that after that cut content was removed, the game was probably given a bit of a polish to iron out some of the plot problems, making that cut content appear to contradict or overly-complicate the game plot as it is. I'd suggest you complete the game a few times, with different aligments/gender and changing NPCs often enough to go through as many dialogue options as you can, in order to get a better understanding of the story.

 

Again, I just don't like how the ending plays out in terms of play mechanics, nor how the storyline/plot resolves itself (because it doesn't). And both aspects bother me.

 

If I wanted to play a first person run and gun I'd go out and buy one. I buy *RPGS* like KOTORII because I want to play through them with a TEAM. A lot of RPGs these days, esp. the MMORPGs, force you to play through only one character. I finallly got around to playing KOTORII (a few years late) because I wanted a game I could play through with a party of chars. Too bad in the best, most involved part of the game, the endgame, I can't.

 

Also, the way ppl. explain things/events, they make sense *now*, too bad they don't offer that full explication ingame.

[Seeker1]

Kreia set this up much earlier when she revived Hanharr, in order to kill Mira later. But I agree it makes little sense, since Mira wasn't so strong that Kreia couldn't have killed her on her own and needed Hanharr for that

 

My point is, why revive Hanrarr to fight Mira a second time, when she defeated him the FIRST time? I mean, isn't the definition of insanity trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

 

I was observing to see if Kreia had done something to buff Hanrarr for the second showdown, and AFAICT he wasn't any tougher than the first time. So it just seemed pointless.

 

Can't you fly quickly past the beasts? I cleared them up as the Exile, so I'm not sure if there's no challenge at all. Maybe you had to fly and maneuver your way past them.

 

Dunno, it seems the only point of this is to punish you for not clearing out all the storm beasts as the exile, because they will kill the remote if you don't. I didn't make the mistake a 2nd time.

 

But there are several scenes where they show the remote being upgraded, Bao Dur and G0T0 comment on it, except AFAICT it just got a very puny laser and not much else. Certainly, they didn't do anything to help you defeat the storm beasts ... or even stealth past them. Incidentally, though, oddly, the remote seems capable of throwing grenades (?) and I might have been able to finish off the storm beasts if I had about a dozen thermal detonators.

 

Well, I didn't think that Goto was going to prevent anything, to be honest, up until I read about it in team Gizka's forums. He just said "we'll wait for the General's orders", it didn't even sound as if he wanted to prevent anything.

 

Dunno, the whole G0T0 business stinks of cut plotting/dialogue, it's clear from reading forums that the actual G0T0 who programmed the droid on your ship to be his representative is himself another droid, and the humanoid hologram you speak to is just to fool you into thinking he is human. I think you can find this out with enough Influence, but just what G0T0 is up to by himself messing with the remote is never made clear, either.

[Seeker1]

What do you mean, how can you upgrade your personal crystal? I didn't know that it was upgradable...

 

I read on the forums its properties were upgradeable and my assumption was the way it was explained as you levelled up so did the properties of your personal lightsaber crystal.

 

Except, as I later read, too late, it will not upgrade unless you level up, and then talk to Kreia. I just find it weird that there are a lot of events in the game that I wouldn't know to do, if it weren't reading the forums, because they all require you talking to Kreia.

 

I find the tomb very nice anyway. It was simply interesting to see Malak in youth, to glimpse the guilt in the Exile's soul (she sent her outnumbered soldiers to die), and especially to be faced with choosing what's more important, Kreia or your companions. I honestly couldn't choose for a long time, too bad that you couldn't pass to the next door without killing Kreia. It was a precise prophesy, though, in the end of the game you couldn't spare her life either.

I don't know why they showed you the future of darksiders Revan and the Exile fighting, maybe Obsidian were sure they'd be the ones to make KOTOR3 I hope they will be.

 

I get the weird feeling the Secret Tomb was to be more significant in the plotline, but once again time constraints meant they cut aspects of it then made it optional to visit. I could be wrong, but that's the sense I get.

 

If there is to be a KOTOR3, I hope it's no rush job.

[Gorth]

Atton seemed to be the only one who could actually fly the Ebon Hawk, so he must be alive.

As I recall, Atton could die in the battle with Sion Interesting. Who'd fly the ship then?

T3 flew the Ebon Hawk to the Peragus Mining Station. The little tin can has a hidden agenda

[R'tas Vadum]

Atton seemed to be the only one who could actually fly the Ebon Hawk, so he must be alive.

As I recall, Atton could die in the battle with Sion Interesting. Who'd fly the ship then?

T3 flew the Ebon Hawk to the Peragus Mining Station. The little tin can has a hidden agenda

 

That or the Exile flys it or helps T3 in doing so. I'd imagine Revan helped Bastila(At least in the DS ending). I'd imagine that the Exile must have some flying experience.

 

And you would think that if the Academy is supposed to be for training new sith+breaking jedi, it must be bigger than shown in the game.

 

 

Also, I'd love a small edit to the DS ending. I dunno, like you literally can say things like "So the Master falls, again" or "And the Betrayal is over", as you throw Kreia in to the "Heart of Malachor". Or, maybe it actually shows you throwing her down. And maybe a better "Assuming the Dark Throne" cutscene, since the DS character is basically the Master of the Traya academy.

Edited March 2, 2008 by R'tas Vadum

[Jediphile]

Well, I can't blame anyone for being confused by TSL's plot on finishing the game for the first time, because it's told very badly due to all the cut content.

 

Suffice it to say, that the plot actually does hang together well, if you replay key sections of the game and pay exceedingly close attention to what is specifically being said.

 

The thing that is not being told so well is the Exile's special status. The Exile is a wound in the force. This is not a natural ability, but was caused by what the Exile experienced at Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian Wars.

 

 

As for Traya, I don't agree that she intends to kill the force. She does, however, want to kill the WILL of the force. Some see it as the same and claim this would destroy all life, but we know that the force does not equal life, because if it did, how could life exist on Myrkr, where the Ysalamiri have the ability to "push back the force" and so disrupt force abilities? While Luke Skywalker lost his force abilities there, he was in no way otherwise harmed - he just lost the ability to call on the force. As Obi-Wan and Yoda would say, life creates the force, not the other way around.

 

What Traya hates is that the force seems to have a will that dictates certain things to all living beings. Like Ahab in Melville's "Moby ****", she at war with "God". But how do you harm the force itself? Well, that's where the Exile comes in. The Exile is a wound in the force due his experiences on Malachor V.

 

Remember that Revan set up Malachor V as a trap for both the Mandalorians and the Jedi. The Mandalorians were decimated, but the Jedi where brought to a point where they had to make a choice - either join Revan and fall to the dark side or die. That's what HK-47 is talking about, when mentions that Revan was "cleaning house". And note that the Exile alone made a third choice - the Exile was the only jedi who followed Revan and Malak to ever return and face trial by the Jedi Council. Why?

 

Because the exile made a special choice. The exile forms force bonds very easily with others. This gives the exile a powerful ability, because he can connect easily with others through the force. But it also works the other way, and when the exile felt death and the dark side at Malachor V, the experience was so intense, that the exile instinctively cut his own connection to the force rather than choose either of the choices Revan had put before him - fall to the dark side or die. This is the reason the exile has no force connection during his exile and the beginning of the game. Kreia manages to infer that the masters cut the bond, but it was actually the exile himself, and Kreia knows it. Kreia is interested in the Exile because this gives him the ability to resist the will of the force. Morever, the exile can harm the force itself - when he resisted the fate to either die or turn to the dark side at Malachor V, he wounded the force rather than let it exert its will over him. The exile is oblivious and ignorant of all this until meeting with the masters again on Dantooine.

 

The masters see a danger in the exile's ability. The exile has no force connection - he cut that on Malachor V. But he can access the force through his bonds with others, effectively using their force bonds to manipulate and use the force. As he does so, he "transmits" his pain and suffering through others, but he also kind of takes control of others. Note how some of the companions refer to "blinking out" for a moment during combat and blindly following the exile's chosen actions during a fight, especially for a light-sided character like Handmaiden, if the exile has taken a dark sided act.

The masters fear this ability, but only that. They also see a connection between the exile and Nihilus' teachings. The masters don't know that it was Nihilus who attacked and devastated Katarr, but they do mention that when the felt the gathering of jedi die there, they felt something that they had only felt once before when the Exile returned to face trial by the jedi council after the Mandalorian Wars. There is a connection, and the masters fear that so much, that the opt to rather cut the exile from the force than risk letting this ability exist, since it could destroy all life (which is exactly what Nihilus represents, after all). Kreia then kills the masters, because they choose to destroy the exile's ability out of fear rather than study and learn from it. They made to same choice when they exiled her from the order, but since the exile is the proof that her teachings are valid, she will not permit that. Besides, she needs the exile's ability as her weapon in her war against the will of the force. This is also the reason Traya accepts death at the end of the game - she knows that only the exile, not herself, can ultimately fight the will of the force. But that is the exile's choice to make, and so she accepts death in her attempt to bring the exile closer to understanding her teachings and seeing things her way. Whatever else you choose to think about Traya, she is an idealist in the sense that she willingly sacrifices herself to further her cause and her teachings. She forces the exile to kill her to prove that point, in part so that her cause cannot be dismissed as a mere quest for power on her part. The exile has now learned all about her - Traya can teach him no more. The exile must now either choose to embrace or reject that cause, so Traya forces him to kill her to prove that she is serious in her dedication and determination. It was always the exile's choice in the end, and to give him the final push, Traya chooses self-sacrifice by dying at his hands. It's twisted, but it makes sense. And that the plot dares to do it is one of the things that makes TSL so great. You won't be seeing many Star Wars plots that dare take things that far.

 

 

Concerning the exile's companions, the reason they are missing is that they went and confronted Traya on their own and got captured, at least in the cut content.

 

http://team-gizka.org/2007-02-14.html

 

However, depending on how you had played the game, there could be different confrontations among the companions, even ending in death. For example, Atton could fight Sion, Atton could attack Disciple, or Handmaiden could attack Visas, all with potentially permanent deaths for companions, which mirrors the Hanharr vs. Mira scene - if Mira dies in the fight (and that is indeed possible), then Mira is dead and not mentioned by Traya during her predictions at the end.

 

The Trayus Academy was to have had a prison level that was also cut, and from which I would assume the captured companions supposedly could have been freed, although not to join the Exile, it seems.

 

http://team-gizka.org/2005-04-18.html

 

It's true that HK-47 was supposed to intervene in the Remote vs. G0-T0 scene. However, it was cut, presumably because the HK factory on Taris was also cut, which would have set the scene for the ending - if the Exile is dark sided, then G0-T0 successfully commands HK-47 to destroy the Remote, but if the Exile is light sided, then HK-47 resists G0-T0's commands and kills him instead. It is even more frustrating that this scene is missing, since it was later confirmed as official canon by the New Essential Guide to Droids, which mentions G0-T0's destruction at HK-47's hands on Malachor V. In the light side ending, Malachor V is destroyed because it's an entire planet steeped in the dark side that corrupts all life (as per Kreia's comments to the comatose exile on Dantooine). It is where Revan "fell" to the dark side. Since it corrupts all it touches, it can only be used for evil. Therefore the exile (if lightsided) chooses to destroy it by reactivating the Mass Shadow Generator again, so that its evil and its dark knowledge in the Trayus Academy cannot be used to destroy again.

 

T3 is presumably missing from the endsequences because he is repairing the Ebon Hawk, so that the Exile can escape Malachor's destruction at the end (if lightsided). Mandalore is presumably missing because he did not go to Malachor V with the Exile. After all, he is gathering his clans, not seeking out Sith Lords.

 

Bao-Dur is a special case, however. What was to happen with him is uncertain, but I hear rumors that he was to have been killed by the plot on M4-78. However, since that planet was also cut from the game, Bao-Dur fades into mists not to be heard from again.

 

And if by "Revan's holocron" you mean the broken holocron found in the academy on Korriban, then yes, it does work if you set Revan to DS during the conversation with Atton at the beginning of the game. It only shows a holovid of dark sided Bastila, however, so it's not a major loss. For LS Revan you get to actually see Bastila and Carth meeting and talking after the Exile's talk with Carth on Taris.

 

As for the Tomb on Korriban, it does not "prepare" you in ways of game stats, but because it helps the Exile confront some of his past. Note the two "dream" scenes where the exile is first recruited by Malak on Dantooine and then leads soldiers against the Mandalorians on Dxun. The represent elements of the Exile's troubled past that he must come to terms with to face his real problem, which is his experience at Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian Wars when he cut his connection to the force - that's the defining moment of the exile's existence and the source of his problem in the game, yet it is absent from the "dreams". Why? Because the exile has been in denial about it and suppressed his choice for a decade and need to confront his other choices of the past first. And note that the "present dream" is about the companions confronting Kreia and the exile choosing between them, which is indeed the situation that is set up after the meeting with the masters on Dantooine.

 

It does hang together plotwise. It's even solid storytelling. It's just such a crying shame that it's all told so badly due to all the cut content.

[refuse]

Excellent post, I agree with most of your observations.

 

With regards to Bao-Dur's self-confessed 'sacrifice', it could be related to a quest that takes place prior to your final assault on Malachor V, like maybe Bao Dur sensing you're going to revisit Malachor, so he mentions the Mass Shadow Generator still being good for one more go, after your confrontation with the Jedi Masters/Kreia on Dantooine. So, you have to re-visit Droid planet (or perhaps speak to a Hutt or skilled mechanic somewhere else?) to pick up/buy some special jumper cables or whatever from there to properly piece together the Mass Shadow dealie, only he gets ambushed by Sith or G0-T0 or someone.

 

As I mentioned previously, you have to play the game a few times with different set-ups to get a fuller picture of the story, but so long as you take the time to digest the dialog and make sense of what's going on, the story can be pretty straight-forward.

[Swxpert]

i always liked the ending for DS