SteveThaiBinh Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 I said, "under normal circumstances" where the owner of the house doesn't just pull out a gun and start shooting before seeing who it is he's shooting at. It isn't too far of a stretch for the officers to assume that an innocent person wouldn't shoot at police officers. They didn't "bust someone's door down with guns firing." They only fired AFTER they were fired on. Stop twisting things. If it were me, I would assume that a group of people who burst into my house weren't police, because I would assume that the police would have announced themselves. But then I wouldn't have a gun. This tactic seems curiously more suited to societies that don't encourage private ownership of guns. "An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepixiesrock Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 And if police officers do not state they are police officers how the hell is one is suppose to know? Middle of the night, low illumination, dark uniforms... Police need to announce themselves first. I'd imagine it'd be hard to hear a lot of things over the sound of your shotgun firing into the hallway. Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 If they announced themselves first before entering I doubt the shotgun would have been used. Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepixiesrock Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 So you are saying that it is ridiculous to protect one's family and home from intruders? That is one messed up view you have. No, it's ridiculous for you to shoot to kill anyone who is breaking into your home on sight. If it were me, I would assume that a group of people who burst into my house weren't police, because I would assume that the police would have announced themselves. But then I wouldn't have a gun. This tactic seems curiously more suited to societies that don't encourage private ownership of guns. That's fine, my point is that it isn't out of the question for the police officer to assume that they wouldn't get shot at by an innocent person. Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 No, it's ridiculous for you to shoot to kill anyone who is breaking into your home on sight. If someone is breaking into my home then they have only up to two objectives. To steal my stuff and/or do me bodily harm. In both those cases I will seek to use lethal force to deter such actions. Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveThaiBinh Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 You're right, it's not out of the question. But nevertheless, it's the police that have created a situation in which an innocent person might easily panic and fire upon them, and I don't think that's responsible policing. Yes, the house owner should also give a warning before opening fire, but most likely he hasn't practised and trained for these situations - the police (hopefully) have. "An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepixiesrock Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 If they announced themselves first before entering I doubt the shotgun would have been used. The reason they didn't was because it would put them in danger if the tip was correct. They were acting on the assumption that the tip was correct. Like I have said many times before, they weren't expecting to be fired on by innocent people. The guy fired his weapon before seeing who he was firing at. He just shot three times out his bedroom door. If anyne was putting children in danger it was him. Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepixiesrock Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 No, it's ridiculous for you to shoot to kill anyone who is breaking into your home on sight. If someone is breaking into my home then they have only up to two objectives. To steal my stuff and/or do me bodily harm. In both those cases I will seek to use lethal force to deter such actions. Or they're police officers, or old friends playing a joke on you, or some teenaged kids just causing trouble. Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 The reason they didn't was because it would put them in danger if the tip was correct. They were acting on the assumption that the tip was correct. Like I have said many times before, they weren't expecting to be fired on by innocent people. The guy fired his weapon before seeing who he was firing at. He just shot three times out his bedroom door. If anyne was putting children in danger it was him. They didn't bother to verify if the tip was correct or not. In situations where gunfire can be the result YOU DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS. Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepixiesrock Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 You're right, it's not out of the question. But nevertheless, it's the police that have created a situation in which an innocent person might easily panic and fire upon them, and I don't think that's responsible policing. Yes, the house owner should also give a warning before opening fire, but most likely he hasn't practised and trained for these situations - the police (hopefully) have. That's true, in this situation, I just don't think you could hold either two parties soley responsible for what happened. Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 Or they're police officers, or old friends playing a joke on you, or some teenaged kids just causing trouble. If they are police officers then they need to announce themselves first. If the are old friends then they know how I react to things and they would know better. If they are teenaged kids who think breaking into someone's home to steal stuff or to harass then they will get what they deserve. Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepixiesrock Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 The reason they didn't was because it would put them in danger if the tip was correct. They were acting on the assumption that the tip was correct. Like I have said many times before, they weren't expecting to be fired on by innocent people. The guy fired his weapon before seeing who he was firing at. He just shot three times out his bedroom door. If anyne was putting children in danger it was him. They didn't bother to verify if the tip was correct or not. In situations where gunfire can be the result YOU DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS. Do you know anything about how tips are recieved and then acted on? I mean, I'm pretty sure the people who recieve the tips are not the same people who act on them. The people who act on them act on them on the assumption that they are true, otherwise the tip seemingly wouldn't make it this far. Obviously that didn't happen, and my entire point is that neither the swat team, nor the family is soley responsible. Or they're police officers, or old friends playing a joke on you, or some teenaged kids just causing trouble. If they are police officers then they need to announce themselves first. If the are old friends then they know how I react to things and they would know better. If they are teenaged kids who think breaking into someone's home to steal stuff or to harass then they will get what they deserve. Ok, for the first one, they obviously don't need to. I'll buy the second one for you specifically, although you've got a habbit of switching from talking about you personally to the you collectively. The third I find ridiculous. Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 Why is it ridiculous? If someone is breaking into my home, do I not have the right to protect myself? The SWAT team is solely responsible. They did not announce themselves before they entered. They acted on bad information without verifying its accuracy at that particular address. Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepixiesrock Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 It's ridiculous to me that you think teenage kids breaking into your house with no intention of harming you deserve death. And you must be scratched or something, because you're skipping. Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 "If anyne was putting children in danger it was him. " Wrong. He wa sminding his own buiosness while sleeping in his home along with his fmaily. the police officers are the ones who broke into his house acting like thugs with something to hide. The whole idea of no announce search warrants are lame. It's one thing to show up without a warning; it'a another to go all SAWT. Have the police heard of probable cause? If they didn't, they wouldn't need such a warrant in the first place. The police in this case aren't evil; but they are most certainly in the wrong. Why should innocents suffer when the police make an error in judgement? What would happen if the guy didn't shoot, and in fact, the police *were* criminals? Hmm.. I feel if the police have probably cause to enter a home without warning the least they could do is shout out 'We are the police." Afterall, the whole point of this warrants is to not give the criminals to get rid of the evidence.. well, if the officers ar ein the house, the criminals really cna't do that. And, look at this. As soon as the man figured out they wer ecops, he put down his gun. That's pretty intelligent though could be risky considering the kind of arrogance and violence police are willing to commit if someone opposes then. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 And how do I know that these teenagers who are breaking into my property have no intention of harming me? I can't read minds, Pixie Stick. I don't know what their intentions are beyond breaking into my property where they do not belong. I expect the worse case scenerio in such situations and I act accordingly. Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepixiesrock Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 And how do I know that these teenagers who are breaking into my property have no intention of harming me? I can't read minds, Pixie Stick. I don't know what their intentions are beyond breaking into my property where they do not belong. I expect the worse case scenerio in such situations and I act accordingly. You know that they have no intention of harming you because I told you they didn't. That was the scinerio I set up. Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 (edited) You know that they have no intention of harming you because I told you they didn't. That was the scinerio I set up. It doesn't work that way unless you suddenly become one of the nonexistent voices in my head. If these teenagers have no intention of harm then they wouldn't be breaking into my home. The fact they are doing so shows that they do indeed intend to cause harm. Edited December 18, 2007 by Sand Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aram Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 I can understand being against no-knock warrants, but a stance against SWAT boggles my mind. How do you expect police to respond to armed groups with body armor and assault rifles? Just let them do whatever they want? There has to be a way to deal with extreme threats, true, but taking regular cops, training them in soldier tactics, and dressing them up in black ninja suits, balaclavas, and supressed submachineguns so they can pose for pictures is not the way to do it. When you let cops dress up and act like soldiers, they will act like soldiers when they should be acting like peace officers. I don't know the solution, but when we have incidents like this one or the one a while back where an unarmed kid failed to make a court appearance so a SWAT team burned down his house and parked a tank on top of his neighbor's Volkswagon, something isn't right. And that's not even mentioning Ruby Ridge and Waco and a slew of innocent people shot dead because the SWAT team just got the address wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 Exactly, Aram. Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepixiesrock Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 I take issue with the actual cops being blamed, not the system. Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 (edited) Both are to blame. The System and the law enforcement officials that follow/use it. Edited December 18, 2007 by Sand Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepixiesrock Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 (edited) You know that they have no intention of harming you because I told you they didn't. That was the scinerio I set up. It doesn't work that way unless you suddenly become one of the nonexistent voices in my head. If these teenagers have no intention of harm then they wouldn't be breaking into my home. The fact they are doing so shows that they do indeed intend to cause harm. That's fine, but you questioned why I called your reaction to my statements ridiculous. Lets recap. You said you'd kill anyone on site I offered the scenerio where they are teenaged kids You said you'd ill them because they deserved it I said it'd be ridiculous for them to deserve to be shot if the teenaged kids weren't trying to harm you You questioned that and said it wasn't ridiculous, it's just protecting youself from what you perceive to be a threat Do you understand my reaction yet? I had said that they weren't going to harm you, and you responded to that as if they were. I wanted to know if they deserved to be shot if they weren't intending on harming you. Edited December 18, 2007 by thepixiesrock Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 (edited) If they didn't intend to do harm then they wouldn't be breaking into my home in the first place so that whole hypothetical situation simply would not exist. If they have the intent of breaking into my home then they intend to do harm, thusly deserve what they get. The act of breaking and entering one's home IS harmful. Edited December 18, 2007 by Sand Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepixiesrock Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 If they didn't intend to do harm then they wouldn't be breaking into my home in the first place so that whole hypothetical situation simply would not exist. If they have the intent of breaking into my home then they intend to do harm. That's not true at all. I know kids who have borken into house and they didn't have the intention of harming the owners of the house. Whatever, you're a waste of time Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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