M4-78RP Post Mortem

[Pavlos]

I decided to post my thoughts on the failed M4-78 project here over at Obsidian

[Blank]

This is a lot of good advice, and I know you guys learned it the hard way. It's unfortunate but understandable that you didn't finish. Thanks for sharing with us and good luck with your future endeavors.

[BioJedi_5]

Excuse me...

 

I've been following the M4-78 and the TSLRP projects for a long time and I'm really dissapointed to see the former go down. It would have added so much to the game, probably brought back a lot of gamers to the series once released. However, as it seems you had some internal issues, and perhaps simple technical difficulties, I guess it just didn't work out.

 

But what I wanted to ask was this: is there any chance of it being restarted? What if another team had the courage to try and take on the M4-78 project, could they start with some of your progress and basic files? Or is that even feasible? I really don't know anything about modding this kind of stuff, although I've done a little - so it probably wouldn't be me. If I did learn, I would offer to help, though.

 

It seems a shame to have this project just kinda die, especially since I don't think its over yet. But I wanted to get your opinion: would another try work, and would your team be willing to help?

[Blank]

It simply isn't feasible, man. Read that last list of reasons he won't release the work so far, they almost directly answer your questions (e.g. "you'd be restoring someone's attempts to recreate someone else's work", "The time taken to transfer all the information to a new set of modders, explain what point x meant on the plan and why y is sarcastic when he's a droid... would be ridiculous.")

 

The team abandoned the mod, and I doubt they'd be willing to come back to it. From Pavlos' advice, it sounds like they have a bitter taste in their mouth from this experience. It's also an older game to mod for anyway, and I am sure they are focusing their efforts on newer ones, like NWN2.

 

I know it's a shame, and it's sad, but it really sounds like this is over.

Edited March 28, 2007 by Blank

[BioJedi_5]

I guess I didn't read all of his reasons carefully. It does seem a shame, though, but it still seems like there would be no unsolvable problems in starting the mod again, other than difficulties in modding the game itself.

 

For example, there are certain parts of the mod that I don't see why there would be a problem in getting them to another team, simple and/or basic stuff that there is no need to do all over again. I'm not talking about story stuff or anything, just perhaps things like entry cutscenes and whatnot.

 

It's also an older game to mod for anyway, and I am sure they are focusing their efforts on newer ones, like NWN2.

 

I know it's a shame, and it's sad, but it really sounds like this is over.

 

 

But I don't really care about that. Trust me, if this mod were finished, and added to the TSLRP mod, it would bring back a crapload of gamers, so to speak. It would sure make people want to play TSL all over again, and renew interest in the series.

Edited March 28, 2007 by BioJedi_5

[Darth Mortis]

It does seem a shame, though, but it still seems like there would be no unsolvable problems in starting the mod again, other than difficulties in modding the game itself.

 

There would be pleanty of problems, from what the restoration team have said I get the impression that most of the missing planet only exists in storyboard or general outline form and not all of the diolog was recorded for the planet anyway. This is why the restoration team decided not to try and put then planet back.

[BioJedi_5]

It does seem a shame, though, but it still seems like there would be no unsolvable problems in starting the mod again, other than difficulties in modding the game itself.

 

There would be pleanty of problems, from what the restoration team have said I get the impression that most of the missing planet only exists in storyboard or general outline form and not all of the diolog was recorded for the planet anyway. This is why the restoration team decided not to try and put then planet back.

 

But it wouldn't be impossible. And as I said, that is just modding problems - I would assume that there could be ways to get through those, if you tried hard enough. It would just matter how much you wanted to do, or how much time you put on it.

[Darth Mortis]

But it wouldn't be impossible. And as I said, that is just modding problems - I would assume that there could be ways to get through those, if you tried hard enough. It would just matter how much you wanted to do, or how much time you put on it.

 

What the restoration project guys had to say;

 

Q: Are you working on the Droid Planet?

A: No, we are not currently working on restoring M4-78, the Droid Planet. The only material that exists for it is basically an outline and a couple of possibly incomplete voiceover sets. Storylining, scripting, writing dialogue and recording sounds for an entire planet, as well as working it into the plot of the rest of the game is beyond the scope of the project at the moment.

 

You are correct, you could, in theory, put the planet back. Of course this would require you to write/re-write the plot and match it to the game, script it, draw all the missing graphics and animations-which from what I can tell would mean doing everything-then recording all the sounds you would need. This is assuming you can work around the problem of not having complete voiceovers, unless you want everyone/thing to be talking in an alien language you'd probably need to record new voiceovers, which to maintain quality would require a recoding studio and voice actors-and if the missing voiceovers happen to be for any of the main charactors we're talking about having to re-hire the actors.

 

Or in otherwords this is not just a simple modding of the game where you are tinkering with whats already there, but you'd be creating and programming a complete world. To do it correctly, and to the same quality as the current game would require more than just time. It would also require money and people with a fair amount of skill in writing games, not just mods, and I have a feeling that most people in those groups would not be interested in taking on such work on KOTOR 2 given its age.

[BioJedi_5]

You are correct, you could, in theory, put the planet back. Of course this would require you to write/re-write the plot and match it to the game, script it, draw all the missing graphics and animations-which from what I can tell would mean doing everything-then recording all the sounds you would need. This is assuming you can work around the problem of not having complete voiceovers, unless you want everyone/thing to be talking in an alien language you'd probably need to record new voiceovers, which to maintain quality would require a recoding studio and voice actors-and if the missing voiceovers happen to be for any of the main charactors we're talking about having to re-hire the actors.

 

Well, all the scripting, plot-writing, and animation stuff the team was doing, so I would assume that that means its not impossible, just very hard and time-consuming. I do understand what you mean, that it sounds like you just be creating a whole new part of the game with nothing to start from, but the M4-78 team was able to at least start to do that. As I said, it would just take a lot of experienced people with time that they wanted to devote to it.

 

As for voice-overs, what in the planet needs a voice-over? I thing Vash has some voice-overs in there, then Kaah needs some (but if you had to you could make him twilek - I mean, would you care if someone finished the mod and Kaah just used the generic alien voices? Maybe it could be added on later, at most, since it really isn't that high of a priority). There's droids, I guess, but maybe only the central droid would speak english. I really don't know about all the plot and everything, so I'm just quessing as to the characters, of course. And whatever else you needed could be done.... I dunno, is it possible to chop existing lines and words apart and put them into a good sounding line in the game?

 

Or in otherwords this is not just a simple modding of the game where you are tinkering with whats already there, but you'd be creating and programming a complete world. To do it correctly, and to the same quality as the current game would require more than just time. It would also require money and people with a fair amount of skill in writing games, not just mods, and I have a feeling that most people in those groups would not be interested in taking on such work on KOTOR 2 given its age.

 

No, its not simple, I agree. But one of the things that Pavlos said was that hardly anyone in the team had KOTOR modding experience (unlike TSLRP). If you take some good, experienced, KOTOR modders, or at least have some of their advice. A new team would also be started with some of what the M4-78 team did, and they would also have the benefit of learning from their mistakes - and taking Pavlos's advice in his first post. With all that, you have a smaller chance of falling apart and not completing the mod like their team did.

 

Besides, many people are still connected to the KOTOR series; there's a huge gourp of fans waiting for a KOTOR III, and people (including me) still play KOTOR and TSL. As I said, a huge community would come back if this mod was completed, and got a chance to play TSL the way it was supposed to be. Its not that old of game - but its getting older as we speak.

[Darth Mortis]

As for voice-overs, what in the planet needs a voice-over?

 

Planets need voice-overs and background sounds to add to the feeling that it is fully fledged world. Just go back to any of the planets in KOTOR or TSL and just stand there and listen and you'll realise that there is quite a lot of low level sound that adds to the atmosphere/enviroment. These background sounds are not one single recording, but a mixture of different elements. While you could take some of these background effects from existing planets they might not fit very well, which would spoil the quality.

 

I thing Vash has some voice-overs in there, then Kaah needs some (but if you had to you could make him twilek - I mean, would you care if someone finished the mod and Kaah just used the generic alien voices? Maybe it could be added on later, at most, since it really isn't that high of a priority). There's droids, I guess, but maybe only the central droid would speak english.

 

You are correct in that lack of vocals for Kaah and other NPC's on the planet could be done using the alien dialects already recorded-I did say that would be one way to get around the problems of voice overs. However, it would not work for major characters who appear elsewhere-Vash talks in the council chamber flashback/recording. If the voiceovers for her plot on the planet were never completed you would either have to go back and suddenly change the cut-scene to remove or replace her dialoge with something/someone else. Or you would have to work around it, which could (and probably would) create major problems in writing a coherent plot. Thats just Vash, there could well be parts of the Plot that related to other major characters-HK-47 would be a major contender if it was a planet of droids. If they were meant to have plots there you would be screwed if parts of the voice overs were never recorded.

 

I dunno, is it possible to chop existing lines and words apart and put them into a good sounding line in the game?

 

And one of the bits of advice in the first post in this thread was;

Don

Edited March 29, 2007 by Darth Mortis

[Blank]

Get over it, BioJedi. We know someone could do it if they had a ton of time and energy, but nobody will. It's time and effort better spent elsewhere.

 

Of course there are fans and people who are good at modding, but you just try and get a group of people together and start doing this project.

Edited March 29, 2007 by Blank

[BioJedi_5]

Well, to put it simply, Blank, its people like you who make this mod even less likely to be completed.

 

Trust me - I understand how difficult this would be. I'm not being optimistig (well, maybe I am), but that's better than being pessimistic I guess. I can look at this practically and see how much of a chance there is for this to be finished (minisculely low). But I don't appreciate being told to "get over it."

 

Of course there are fans and people who are good at modding, but you just try and get a group of people together and start doing this project.

 

Well, basing on your comments, you're one person I won't ask. But I'm not sure why you say nobody will (even though you admit it can be done) because its "time and energy that can be devoted somewhere else."

 

Like... where? Like time that could be "better" used in posting on Obsidian's forums about why its hopeless and no one will ever do it?

 

Planets need voice-overs and background sounds to add to the feeling that it is fully fledged world. Just go back to any of the planets in KOTOR or TSL and just stand there and listen and you'll realise that there is quite a lot of low level sound that adds to the atmosphere/enviroment. These background sounds are not one single recording, but a mixture of different elements. While you could take some of these background effects from existing planets they might not fit very well, which would spoil the quality.

 

But that isn't like voice-overs or people talking to you, that's background noise. I mean, you could find background noise almost everywhere to use, and you can take back stuff from other planets in TSL. I'm really sure that people would go "HEY! What the F---! That's the background noise from Nar Shaddaa, just changed a little bit!" Aren't you?

 

Or you would have to work around it, which could (and probably would) create major problems in writing a coherent plot. Thats just Vash, there could well be parts of the Plot that related to other major characters-HK-47 would be a major contender if it was a planet of droids. If they were meant to have plots there you would be screwed if parts of the voice overs were never recorded.

 

It wouldn't create that much problems - although the more the characters, the bigger the problem. For example, if it was just Vash, it might work. Along with what I said before, and you answered, about splicing existing lines (which sounds like it can be done in necessary situations), and a bit of creativity, then it wouldn't affect the plot too much. You'd have to do the same for others, which, I agree, would make a plot harder to work out.

 

And one of the bits of advice in the first post in this thread was;

QUOTE

Don

[Darth Mortis]

Well, KOTOR III hasn't even been hinted at, so we're probably looking at a one and a half to two more years before it comes out. Maybe more.

 

Yes, which is probably how long it would take to do this. A project like this is, in terms of time, skill and difficulty, on a par with the restoration project and that has taken years with a good team and no major problems-such as a lack of major voice overs.

 

But that isn't like voice-overs or people talking to you, that's background noise. I mean, you could find background noise almost everywhere to use, and you can take back stuff from other planets in TSL.

 

Every planet has its own look and feel, and part of that feel comes from the background sounds. Don't underestimate how important they can be to the feel of a game-or a film even. I said that the background planet sounds are a mix of differening elements put together. But the chances are they are recored on the game disks as a single track-ie Nar-Shadaar ambient one. Sepurating the elements to get the individual elements, then mixing some back together to make something new would require some major software and equipment-far beyond what the average modder is going to have. We are talking about serious profesonal equipment and software here, not the type of stuff you can just buy from your local computer shop.

 

Just taking the background sounds as they are is not going to work. Nar-Shadaars ambient sounds include faint sounds of people moving around, Dantooine has bird song etc. These sounds would just not match a planet that is populated with droids.

 

But it can be done. That's all I was asking in the first place; he's just saying it takes up a lot of time and can't be used to good effect in conversations with your character. But for simple lines, it could be used (as I said before) in necessary instances. Think about it

 

If he's meantioning it then he presumably wasn't talking about simple lines, but major conversations that are missing diolog.

 

And I did think about it. I think it would sound appalling.

 

If people are still interested in the series, interested enough to wait and hope for a KOTOR III, they'll be interested in something this awesome for the second game. Why do you think people are still waiting earnestly for the TSLRP mod?

 

The TSLRP is, in fact one of the major reasons I don't think you'd get anyone interested in taking on this project. While restoring the missing planet would be cool, most of the major plot elements (or practically all of them) that would have been covered there will be addressed in TSLRP. You'd be making a mod where, in essence, most of what you were putting in would have already been done and restored. No matter how good a job you could do I'm guessing people would go for TSLRP over the missing planet, as the former will contain (ironically) more new stuff. Apart from anything else restoring the planet will not make for a better ending, which TSLRP will-thats also why so many people are waiting on TSLRP, a new and better ending.

[BioJedi_5]

Every planet has its own look and feel, and part of that feel comes from the background sounds. Don't underestimate how important they can be to the feel of a game-or a film even. I said that the background planet sounds are a mix of differening elements put together. But the chances are they are recored on the game disks as a single track-ie Nar-Shadaar ambient one. Sepurating the elements to get the individual elements, then mixing some back together to make something new would require some major software and equipment-far beyond what the average modder is going to have.

 

You're right on that, but as long as the ambient track wasn't too different than what someone needed, it would become easier to mix the right track, since - let's move down to what you said afterward:

 

Just taking the background sounds as they are is not going to work. Nar-Shadaars ambient sounds include faint sounds of people moving around, Dantooine has bird song etc. These sounds would just not match a planet that is populated with droids.

 

Since, as I was going to say, you wouldn't have to edit out people noise or voices if you could find a right ambient track. You're also right about Nar Shaddaa not working, but - I should have thought of this earlier - Peragus would work perfectly. I don't even really know what its ambient track is like, but it should work (and if I couldn't distinguish it, and you add the right music, it would - should work perfectly).

 

If he's meantioning it then he presumably wasn't talking about simple lines, but major conversations that are missing diolog.

 

And I did think about it. I think it would sound appalling.

 

Well, regardless of what he is talking about, I'd have to reserve judgement on this myself, because I don't really know what it sounds like if you do that. If you could make it sound fine with a lot of work, it could solve voice-over problems that weren't able to be solved short of buying a recording studio and rehiring the actors. But I don't know.

 

The TSLRP is, in fact one of the major reasons I don't think you'd get anyone interested in taking on this project. While restoring the missing planet would be cool, most of the major plot elements (or practically all of them) that would have been covered there will be addressed in TSLRP. You'd be making a mod where, in essence, most of what you were putting in would have already been done and restored. No matter how good a job you could do I'm guessing people would go for TSLRP over the missing planet, as the former will contain (ironically) more new stuff. Apart from anything else restoring the planet will not make for a better ending, which TSLRP will-thats also why so many people are waiting on TSLRP, a new and better ending.

 

I would think the opposite. Perhaps I'm misjudging how indifferent people would be, but so far, with the folding up of the M4-78 team, at least people have been dissapointed and generally share the view that it was a huge shame for it not to be completed. Now, people are just hanging on to the TSLRP, and hopefully that won't go down too. But still, if you could just get this project moving - start it and a team (finding a team would probably be a whole different adventure) with some momentum - you would probably be able to get people into it. I would consider the difficult part just getting the darn thing going.

 

Besides, people would never pass up the chance to put a whole new kick-ass planet mod (as some say of the M4-78 project) and sub-plot into a game, especially one that was originally supposed to be in the game (not just some made-up modded planet). So, again, there won't be lack of interest in the mod, just maybe some lack of support.

[Darth Mortis]

Besides, people would never pass up the chance to put a whole new kick-ass planet mod (as some say of the M4-78 project) and sub-plot into a game, especially one that was originally supposed to be in the game

 

My understanding is that the sub-plots that were meant to be in M4-78 have been put into TSLRP, just not on that world.

 

Peragus would work perfectly. I don't even really know what its ambient track is like, but it should work (and if I couldn't distinguish it, and you add the right music, it would - should work perfectly).

 

The ambient track from Peragus was an echoy abandoned station with some machinery still running. There would be no 'feel' to being in a place that was populated, even with droids. (I think, in fact, that the ambient track used on Peragus is also used on the Harbringer, Telos military base and the Ravenger.)

 

You could use that track as the basis for a new track, if you could find elements to add to it. Or you could, I guess, use the ambient track that is used in the hanger areas of Citidel station which I seem to remember has a few droid 'voices' in it. It still wouldn't feel right though since that track was intended for a small area, not a planet.

Edited April 1, 2007 by Darth Mortis

[BioJedi_5]

The ambient track from Peragus was an echoy abandoned station with some machinery still running. There would be no 'feel' to being in a place that was populated, even with droids. (I think, in fact, that the ambient track used on Peragus is also used on the Harbringer, Telos military base and the Ravenger.)

 

You could use that track as the basis for a new track, if you could find elements to add to it. Or you could, I guess, use the ambient track that is used in the hanger areas of Citidel station which I seem to remember has a few droid 'voices' in it. It still wouldn't feel right though since that track was intended for a small area, not a planet.

 

That's true, you could do that too. But as I said before, even if you had to add a few elements to it, put some music there and it would work without any hitches, at least. Then, perhaps mix a few droid voices in the track - that wouldn't be hard.

 

My understanding is that the sub-plots that were meant to be in M4-78 have been put into TSLRP, just not on that world.

 

Hmm.... I hadn't heard about that. I'm pretty sure that the whole Vash, Kaah, and M4-78 (the droid) plots are seperate from the TSLRP sub-plots. Which sub-plots do you think are being included elsewhere? If you remember, the two teams were planning on making their mods work together in TSL, so I doubt that both mods go through the same plots, especially ones that are exclusive to the M4-78 planet.

[Pavlos]

AGH! I didn't realise that this insignificant topic would provoke such interest.

 

Well, regardless of what he is talking about, I'd have to reserve judgement on this myself, because I don't really know what it sounds like if you do that. If you could make it sound fine with a lot of work, it could solve voice-over problems that weren't able to be solved short of buying a recording studio and rehiring the actors. But I don't know.

 

It worked out rather well, really. It just took a long time and limited what I was able to do in the way of writing for the companions. You can still access the samples I uploaded when the last website went up here. It is limiting because if I want to create lines I need to find phrases rather than individual words to splice together - splicing words together is much more difficult than phrases and generally leads to the character sounding as though he has the hiccoughs. Actually, I think one of the files included in that 7zip archive is a direct copy from one found (unused) in the game. The discovery of one of these unused files ignites a feeling of pure bliss in your heart .

 

The ambient track from Peragus was an echoy abandoned station with some machinery still running. There would be no 'feel' to being in a place that was populated, even with droids. (I think, in fact, that the ambient track used on Peragus is also used on the Harbringer, Telos military base and the Ravenger.)

 

That is incorrect. Almost every area uses its own background sound file (you can check in the StreamMusic file). The areas may share UTS (placeable sounds, essentially) with similar contents but the ambient tracks are all subtly different. I know for a fact that the sound file for the Peragus exterior module (10XPER, I forget the exact name) was used in 801DRO, the landing pad where I made sure there was no ambient music, save that background hum, some wind effects and the sound of steam being emitted from the Ebon Hawk. Add to it the metallic clip clopping of two droids patrolling and... it's surprising how spooky you can make an area feel.