Hungarian Events

[Jorian Drake]

Not long ago there were protests and demonstrations against the Prime Minister Gyurcs

[Darque]

Wow, that's kinda disturbing. I had no idea.

 

I must reflect on this.

[Rosbjerg]

most here in Denmark are concerned .. but few know what to do.. I think we are waiting for you to resolve what you can .. while it would probably be the most wise action to force you president of the "throne" with international pressure .. I believe most European politicians are afraid of the reprecussion of that - you are still a democracy and as such it's hard to politically gather support for any actions .. probably because we still believe it's best you handle this yourselves .. every early democracy will have it's hardships (and of course older ones will as well)- but how they prevails tells alot about how they view liberty and the rights of both enemies (domestic and abroad) and citizen.

[Gorth]

I know somebody who is in Budapest these days (Josan), He'll probably find Ontario pretty dull when he gets back to Canada

 

He did say something about people appearing disturbingly paranoid in the streets though.

[Jorian Drake]

most events happened 1-2 months ago, no action was taken against 'our PM', and he doesn't resign either. He began to take actions like a dictator would. people here lost nearly all hope, and with no reaction from foraign nations, anyone thinks he has free hands to do what he wants. There is no international pressure, and that guy only acts like a democratic leader, but in real is a dictatoric, corrupt, commie.

 

Yes, people look like paranoids because they are afraid, and the problem is: paranoid people are afraid of non-existent things, but the people here are afraid of existing ones.

 

We can't handle it on ourselves, as military and police is nearly 100% on his side, he doesn't have to do anything: he will not resign, he declared that he WILL lead Hungary after this, and most of the people who voted him don't believe that he said those on the record, even as he himself admitted that. He has some fanatics who think his 'enemies' did this all, and you can't talk with them, or show them any evidence because they simply don't listen.

Without foraign support this will not change. Most people here are already exhausted, noone will do anything against him because of fear for themselves and their families.

 

 

 

Think about it: 'west' looks on us as an ally from USA, Bush has a good connection with Gyurcsany. How many did you actually hear of the events? Nearly no evidence can be found on the Net, noone talked about it, it has all been done with silent acknowledgement. I am one of the last persons who try to share the info about it with the people.

Edited November 29, 2006 by jorian

[Rosbjerg]

I can't believe that you've lost all hope in 1-2 months? have he picked random people of the streets or executed anyone?

 

This sounds to me like you haven't even opposed him ... simply accepted that he's in charge and you, the people, can't do anything about it .. sure the police use violence when a crowd goes outta control .. but sometimes you have to send a message - "we'll keep rioting until you step down" - and if he kills anyone - well then this reign will be a very very short one..

[Jorian Drake]

I can't believe that you've lost all hope in 1-2 months? have he picked random people of the streets or executed anyone?

 

This sounds to me like you haven't even opposed him ... simply accepted that he's in charge and you, the people, can't do anything about it .. sure the police use violence when a crowd goes outta control .. but sometimes you have to send a message - "we'll keep rioting until you step down" - and if he kills anyone - well then this reign will be a very very short one..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't understand: people opposed him since he was voted, some said he cheated the votes, but no real evidence was found, before 1-2 months his private talk has been recorded and TV/radio played it, he admitted in it anything: stealing, lying, using illegal methods BUT the people who voted for him fanatically thought those records were fake, even after he himself said those are real, he is the one who rders the police, and then (1-2 months ago) there were dead people, but noone did anything. Don't forget the nation has 10 million people in the national borders, its not so much. It looks like whatever we said/asked of foraign nations they just don't care about such a small nation, they look at the events in Iraq/Iran (these asren't my thoughts: these are the thoughts of the majority here)

After the bloody end of the protests and demonstration most people fear to do anything, or began to think the lies are true, just that anything should go on as 'normal' as most humans like it. And there are the people who support him, they would belive him if he would say they have to dig in the sea to find the moon.

Since those events and demonstrations many people have been arrested or lost their jobs, some just because they were in the demonstrations/protests.

Most people aren't that heroic like those in the movies, and Hungary has a high % of old people in its population, who lived through two suppressing regimes (a very few even 3), the spirit of the people is nearly broken.

Gyurcsany watched that most arrests or violence should be made behind the curtains, hungarians know of these, but no other nation. Police threw not only gas grenades, also stones, hurt innocents who just stand there, or even hunted trough the capitol to arrest/hurt some people they just picked up on the street, and they used such weapons (like 'vipers') that are illegal. And after that the Police Captain of the nation declared none of this happened.

This couldn't be if the PM wouldn't ordered him this, and after it supporting/helping the captain in hiding evidence and clues about it.

 

Crowd didn't get out of controll, police got out of controll. After the events the remembering of '56 wasn't in an united Hungary, most people didn't even leave their homes, and the greates opposition political party used civilians as 'lawkeepers' on their congress because they didn't trust the state police anymore.

Also police was not treated right, those who weren't fully on their (Gyurcsany) side had no supplies since the start of the demonstrations. I know a policeman who wasn't attacking anyone, just used the normal tools of the usual police force, who has been ordered to Budapest from the other side of the nation, and had nothing to drink/eat for days, he had to stand there, and some protesters helped him (gave him an apple and some goulash+water), the events didn't just happened to make fear and acceptance for the regime in the people, it was also a way of disciplining the police/army members who disagreed with him.

It was well thought of, was no mistake, restaurants and shops were near but they weren't alllowed to leave their stance, some got food, some not.

[Gorgon]

Why should he resign when he still has a popular mandate. The voters can throw him out next time around. He doesen't have to resign just because people are demonstrating.

Edited November 29, 2006 by Gorgon

[Jorian Drake]

Why should he resign when he still has a popular mandate. The voters can throw him out next time around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He doesn't have a popular mandate, only fanatics in power. And more and more people think he really cheated the former votes. The greatest problem is that the people go 'I don't care as long i have my job' stance, whatever he makes.

 

And as an other thing: Why the hell should we have nukes? we don't even have enough land to place the silos, and we have great problems with the budget anyway.

 

He is a moronic neo-commie dictator.

[Gorgon]

Once you vote a president into office you can't just expect him to leave if he should become unpopular. If he did leave as a result of a popular campaign led by the opposition that would be a lot more worrying for democracy.

 

As for the lying part, so what, all politicians lie. You get to vote him out of office after his term. I'm not sure about the alegations of voting fraud, it's the first i've heard of it.

[Jorian Drake]

Once you vote a president into office you can't just expect him to leave if he should become unpopular.  If he did leave as a result of a popular campaign led by the opposition that would be a lot more worrying for democracy.

 

As for the lying part, so what, all politicians lie. You get to vote him out of office after his term. I'm not sure about the alegations of voting fraud, it's the first i've heard of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sidenote: Noone is allowed to legally 'vote him out' after he got the 'throne'.

Noone, noway, nada.

 

He knew that, that's why he smiled after the recorded speech went on-air, and now he makes it sure that the next votes are his again.

Edited November 29, 2006 by jorian

[Gorgon]

You voted him president for life ?

[Jorian Drake]

You voted him president for life ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God help no,

president for 4 years, but this is the second time that it happened, and is reeeaaaly weird knowing how many people hated him already after his first one, thats why so many say he cheated the votes, and he doesn't allow the checking of the details about it...even as it could be allowed. (a bit weird no? evidence about no cheat would onl make him stronger, so why not allowing it?)

 

I guess he will now always redo the same things: lies-fear-opression-lies, thus votes will always be on his side.

 

 

Look carefully at the video: near the start police hits a mother who has her child with her:

 

 

I do not want someone to 'lead' us who secretly/openly supports such actions

Edited November 29, 2006 by jorian

[Jorian Drake]

shooting at a guy who just holds a flag

 

part of Gyurcsany's spech is translated into english in this one, busdriver tries to help civilians (he was shot later)

 

Dictatorism? not yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkLA4RVMfBg...related&search=

 

Lies are just the beginning...

 

removal of a communist CoA, now in 2006, and the people for it have been later arrested, or worse...(?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtMetZoVxx0...related&search=

 

police cavalary started the attacks, three charges, by the second one there were hurt people, at the third there were dead people http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcsOv82hv3c...related&search=

 

tank captured by the demonstrators (similar to the capture of soviet tanks in '56), this was the first and only action taken by them what can be counted hostile (the tank had no ammo anyway, they wanted it to move on the historical route of the first '56 protest) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zndUB0zOdU...related&search=

 

A small protest in NYC, noone really understood what it was about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4uQYn5GnfA

[Morgoth]

Seems like the political situation never wants to stabilize there.

 

Just like since the last few weeks again, Roma-Hungarians come with their vans (haven't done that since 5 years around here) and collect everything they can get, like bicycles, winter tires, cloth etc. and sometimes even steal if they must (my uncles car just got stolen last week. LOL). Not sure about how that is related to the recent uprisings, but I'm wondering how that minority gets treated in Hungary generally, because they wouldn't need to collect garbage if they'd actually get more support from the Hungarian government.

Edited November 29, 2006 by Morgoth

[Jorian Drake]

Seems like the political situation never wants to stabilize there.

 

Just like since the last few weeks again, Roma-Hungarians come with their vans (haven't done that since 5 years around here) and collect everything they can get, like bicycles, winter tires, cloth etc. and sometimes even steal if they must (my uncles car just got stolen last week. LOL). Not sure about how that is related to the recent uprisings, but I'm wondering how that minority gets treated in Hungary generally, because they wouldn't need to collect garbage if they'd actually get more support from the Hungarian government.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lets say not just romas are going to austria for things, what you throw out as garbage (mostly old items or furniture) they sell here after some restoration as new.

 

I don't want to begin to talk about minorities, but let me ask you to check hungarian taxes,

why are they so high, and why are pays low, and then look at western nations.

You will have facts what show how bad things here are (mostly in medicine and teaching), that the richest people are either politicians or gangsters (or both), that many people leave the nation (mostly to Sweden or Canada), and that for many people hope is already lost.

Of course if someone comes as a tourist they don't see the worst of the things, but if he's unluck his car is stolen and maybe he will not wake up next morning.

Say hi to 3 different mafias, and atleast 3 other criminal organizations, who all have friends with power. YOu could say that's usual in all nations, but it shouldn't be in such a small one, with such a low population number.

 

10million people, from those are 4m workers, and the other 6 are anything else (from kids to elders, to prisoners, ect.) 4 million are working to feed themselves, AND to feed the other 6 million too.

 

 

Any small piece of something what is bad is another drop of water in the glass, and when even they admit they stole and lie to us, that glass became full. The problem with todays hungarian average morale is, the people drink that water even if they suffocate in it, and begin from the start to let them be tortured, ignored, insulted, ect.

 

People here can either swim with the corruption and be corrupted, or swim against it and sink. A third party is needed, who gives a hand to the people to get out of the Ocean of Corruption, and to allow a new start/hope for Hungary.

I am not optimist or pessimist in this, I clearly see only with foraign help can a restart be archieved, because the only thing what we can now archieve on our own is to dig an even deeper grave for ourselves.

[Calax]

sounds like you've got a budding revolution...

 

From the looks of things (at least what you've posted anyway) the president's actions have caused the people to go so much against him that he's been forced to use power tactics to try and muscle the population back under control. My guess is that if he wins the third time it'll be the kickoff to a full scale civil war/revolution

 

And judging from the fact you can't toss him from office with a vote, you guys probably should draw up somthing that allows you to do that, AND attaches term limits to the leaders stay in office.

 

I'm wondering if you have any other branches of the government that aren't subordinate to the prime minister. If so the easiest way to find a way out of this is to use that branch to pressure the pm into resigning, or to be the figurehead/leader of the rebel side.

[Jorian Drake]

sounds like you've got a budding revolution...

 

From the looks of things (at least what you've posted anyway) the president's actions have caused the people to go so much against him that he's been forced to use power tactics to try and muscle the population back under control. My guess is that if he wins the third time it'll be the kickoff to a full scale civil war/revolution

 

And judging from the fact you can't toss him from office with a vote, you guys probably should draw up somthing that allows you to do that, AND attaches term limits to the leaders stay in office.

 

I'm wondering if you have any other branches of the government that aren't subordinate to the prime minister. If so the easiest way to find a way out of this is to use that branch to pressure the pm into resigning, or to be the figurehead/leader of the rebel side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No pressure seems to be enought for him, and I think if he doesn't win (what i hope) whoever else does, will change the laws of resignations.