Unkillable enemies discussion

[Dark_Raven]

Yeah that will teach them.

[Darque]

I disagree with hades on the grounds that this game is not a "true to the numbers" conversion of the WoD rules, like TOEE was of 3.5 DnD.

 

Thus his argument in this case is hot air.

 

End o' argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It needs to be consistant within itself and within itself a lot of uber powerful beings can be killed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Seeing as it's not a direct 1:1 conversion, it's consistant by default

 

Seeing as this is the ONLY werewolf you go one on one with, you have nothing else to compare it to

[Judge Hades]

Llyr:

 

Darque: There are a lot of uber powerful beings that the PC can kill and only 1 that you can't except through a trick. That isn't consistant.

[alanschu]

Llyr: 

 

Darque:  There are a lot of uber powerful beings that the PC can kill and only 1 that you can't except through a trick.  That isn't consistant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

But none of them are a werewolf. If you had killed other werewolves fine, you'd have consistency issues. But given the game slapped you across the face saying Don't fight the werewolf. You can't win! Don't even think about it. It won't work!, it's hardly inconsistent.

 

Unless you were metagaming your character, knowing that in the rules the game is based on, you should be able to hurt the werewolf in spite of the gigantic, obvious warnings a far more elite, superior, and knowledgeable vampire was telling you just moments before the werewolf came lunging out at him and in all likelihood killed him. Telling you straight up that it was pointless to even attempt to go up against a werewolf. The same vampire that had no qualms telling the Prince bull**** at the beginning of the game, and dealt with a group of Sabbat that were about to ash your ass like he had ice water flowing through his veins, but was so absolutely scared of sticking around because of these werewolves.

[Judge Hades]

He killed his. I don't know why you are even supporting this. It wa a very bad design choice of Troika to place a practically unkillable boss in a hack and slash game.

[alanschu]

You can also kill yours.

 

Clearly they aren't invincible.

 

 

How did Nines kill his?

 

 

 

I'm supporting it because I don't think it's as bad of a design choice as you make it out to be. As previously stated, I clearly found the encounter to be an enjoyable one.

Edited September 8, 2006 by alanschu

[Judge Hades]

That is why I said practically invincible since it cannot be killed by the PC by normal means. You have to use a gimmick to kill it. To each their own. I found it very stupid and a very poor design choice.

 

You just don't make near invincible foes that requires a gimmick to kill in a hack and slash game.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Judge Hades

[alanschu]

Says who?

 

 

And it also depends on what you consider a "hack and slash" game. Bloodlines does have sequences that are combat heavy, but I'd hardly call it a hack and slash game.

[Judge Hades]

Says I.

 

It has enough that I would.

[Darque]

Hades, your overlooking one important thing...

 

Whatever it takes to kill a werewolf, you sure ain't got it

 

(w00t)

 

(in the context of the game of course)

[Judge Hades]

Not that it matters now. Troika's dead. Bloodlines is gathering dust. I just hope that future hack and slash CRPGs don't follow the cheese of the near invincible boss creature that requires a gimmick to kill.

[Darque]

You would have really hated Gun

[Judge Hades]

Probably but I heard that it was a pretty short game so I never bothered with it because ti wouldn't be worth the money.

[alanschu]

Not that it matters now.  Troika's dead.  Bloodlines is gathering dust.  I just hope that future hack and slash CRPGs don't follow the cheese of the near invincible boss creature that requires a gimmick to kill.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you're just putting your head in the dirt and ignoring the realization that this isn't actually as rare of a phenomenon as you're making it out to be.

[Judge Hades]

Its the only game that I have played that uses it.

[alanschu]

Then you have clearly not played many games.

[Judge Hades]

I play CRPGs.

 

From the days of Ultima 1 to current. Sure that aren't many games if one includes all the other genres but CRPGs is where I focus on for the most part.

[alanschu]

You must have been a big fan of Lord British.

[Judge Hades]

No, not really. Of the Old school games I found the Gold Box DnD games more enjoyable.

[Spider]

Actually, after a fashion BG2 uses the gimmick-to-kill boss. And I'm not talking about Kangaxx.

 

At Spellhold when you're going up against Irenicus, try just rushing into the room where he is. It's instant game over. You need to enlist aid from the psychopaths. How's that for a gimmick?

 

Not to mention that it's inconsistent with itself, given how easy Irenicus is to defeat when you face him in the end game, I could clearly have defeated him at Spellhold if that's all he got.

 

*shrugs*

 

It's fairly common in games overall.

 

As for the Flamethrower comment, that would only have made the Werewolf pissed. Fire may do agg (I'm not even sure it does) against them, but they can still soak it so it'd amount to bruises at best. Unless you're packing silver it is a logical assumption that fighting a werewolf is an exercise in futility.

[Slowtrain]

@spider: I agree it is common in games. Doesn't make it any better though.

 

 

As Hell Kitty points out though, it's really a puzzle. Which I think is a great way to look at it. A puzzle disguised as combat. I've never been much of a puzzle-oriented gamer. Looking for arcane solutions to what should be an obvious problem doesn't really interest me.

 

But its rarely a game-killer, just something I really don't liketo have todealwith in games. Similar to jumping puzzles in that sense. I try to avoid games that contain either and it always rankles me a bit when I encounter either in a game I choose to play.

 

So be it!

[Judge Hades]

It was combat, plain and simple. They just cheesed it up. Puzzles are like the Snares of Death in Bard's Tale 2 or riddles that makes you think. The werewolf scene was not a puzzle.

[alanschu]

It was combat, plain and simple. They just cheesed it up. Puzzles are like the Snares of Death in Bard's Tale 2 or riddles that makes you think. The werewolf scene was not a puzzle.

 

It obviously wasn't, especially considering you don't even need to kill the thing.

[Judge Hades]

If something is attacking you, regardless if you can kill it or not, it is a combat situation.

[Llyranor]

Hades is right to some extent, though. It was bad design. He's blowing it out of proportions because he lacks limbs, but the point remains. It makes for uncompelling storytelling and gameplay. They could have integrated it in a much more approachable fashion. Just because it was easy for people with limbs doesn't make it good.