Is it...or isn't it?

[KotOR_rules2004]

This is something that has been bothering me for a while now. I think we can all agree that games such as Baldur's Gate, KotOR, Planescape: Torment, NWN are RPGs. Why? Because you ROLE PLAY. The setting and rules are a big plus no doubt.

 

Then you move on to other games, like Jade Empire. This game is an Action-RPG. Kingdom Hearts is another example. I consider Jade Empire a RPG because of those two big words; ROLE PLAYING game. You shape the story, you make the character your own, you make the experience your own. No D&D rules, no Forgotten Realms or Planescape or Dragonlance campaign setting. No real time - turn based combat (It had turbo charged Kung-Fu!), and no dice affected comat. Do I prefer these things? Ofcourse, but Jade Empire still a blast to play and replay.

 

Now you gotta look at Kingdom Hearts. Was it a good game? Yeah, but was it a RPG? Not in my opinion. I feel it was very character based game, but not your own character. You were on rails the whole time. You didn't do anything to shape the story or your character.

 

Now, we go to the completely opposite end of the spectrum. The Japanese RPG. Final Fantasy is what I will look at here since it is by far the most well known of the sub-genre. I will first start by saying that I cannot stand these games. To me, they shouldn't bare the acronym RPG and should be called CBGs (Character Building Games). You do NOTHING to affect the story, your character, or the world. No customization AT ALL (ok, Jade Empire didn't have alot either, but atleast something was there) for your character. You can't bring anything to the game except for an apetite for being pulled through a story that doesn't make loads of sense, and an anime' fixation. Please I don't mean to flame, but I have gotten into many arguments with a friend over this matter. If you can't Role Play in a "RPG" then don't call it an RPG. Are they good games? I'm sure they are, I mean, there is no way that millions upon millions of gamers can be wrong about that. But, as for calling it an RPG...come on people.

 

Please let me know your opinions. Once again, I do not mean to flame or belittle anyone but RPGs are things that I am very sensitive over. I mean, if you call Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy RPGs then you might as well call God of War an RPG. You can upgrade your attacks and everything!

[alanschu]

Can of worms...opened.

 

To be honest, you shouldn't be sensitive about what people call things. Is it some giant affront to all that is good and righteous in the world if someone has a different definition of what an RPG is?

 

 

EDIT: Are you MacLeod Corp or whatever his name was?

Edited August 30, 2006 by alanschu

[KotOR_rules2004]

What is Macleod? Anyways, I didn't mean to stir up a frenzy it is just...why call it an RPG if key element of an RPG isn't there? I mean, I might as well call Max Payne a FPS and World of Warcraft the best single player game in existence.

 

And, it isn't that they call it an RPG, it is more that they are so ignorant about what an RPG is. To them, BG and NWN are "dice games", and Final Fantasy is a RPG.

 

My buddy actualy once had the nuts to say that "those games" are the lamest things ever created. I grew up with Final Fantasy on the NES and that is what a RPG is. It is the traditional RPG, these other things are "technicaly" RPGs, but only because they share some FF elements". Ofcourse when I argued my point he got all pissed and probably went to go pet is FF cartriges. Seriously tho, FF DID NOT come first. In 1974 Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax created the original pen and paper D&D. Final Fantasy didn't come around till about 1985 or 86. 10+ years later. And, since BG and NWN use D&D rules, settings wouldn't that make THEM the traditional RPGs?

[alanschu]

Who cares if your friend disagrees? Just laugh at him knowing he's wrong.

 

 

MacLeod was a dude that used to post here a long time ago, convinced that the now questionable Project New Jersey was really KOTOR 3. He also liked to post things about how Obsidian "slipped" with certain things.

 

Though I remember you now...you were the guy asking what to do when you're friend said straight up that Bioware doesn't make RPGs or whatever.

 

The term RPG is way too subjective. Many call the Final Fantasy games RPGs because the media and whatnot has been doing so since the games came out. They're a different type of RPG than a game like Baldur's Gate. If your friend is that insistent on telling you that a game like KOTOR isn't an RPG, then to me it sounds like he is just trying to get under your skin and aggravate you.

 

Next time he tries telling you something silly like that, tell him "Who cares...KOTOR's a better game and that's all that matters." The fact that he has previously cut you off before you could even think to reply shows IMO that he's just trying to piss you off. And it seems to be working.

 

It's hard to say what the "key ingredient" of an RPG is, since so many games fall under the genre, and have for many, many years.

[Atreides]

Just play what you enjoy dude.

[alanschu]

If the friend keeps trying to drive the point home, try beating him at his own game.

 

He obviously doesn't want to hear your rebuttles, so don't give it to him. Next time you get a new RPG and he asks you about it, say you got a new RPG. When he says that it's not an RPG, give vague, cryptic answers. Say stuff like "If thinking that makes you happy" or "You still think that?" And regardless of what he says, just smile and slightly shake his head. Say nothing more. And make sure that you are the one to turn away.

 

He'll try to goad you into saying what you want, but for the first little bit, don't bother. Because he's waiting for you to talk so that he can cut you off and tell you to stop talking (which tends to piss most people off). The more you don't try to talk though, the more his curiousity will be piqued. Heck, if you can go indefinitely without telling him (and he's starting to pressure you more and more), you could have fun by simply never telling him and watching him go insane

 

 

Give a witty one-liner as a response the next time he says something like that, and it will give him no where to go with his "point." Since there's no discussion, there's nothing for him to say to himself that he has "won," which is likely all he's looking to do when he starts it up anyways.

 

 

The thing is, timing is important. You can't go up to him and say "Baldur's Gate is an RPG" and then when he's finished say your witty remark. He has to be the one that instigates the discussion about what is or is not an RPG. You could try baiting him into the discussion (which is what you'd be doing by talking about your new RPG), or if he likes to bring it up a lot, just wait for him to bring it up again.

 

 

But if he sees you getting all riled up because of his statements, then he's a happy camper. You have to not let it get to you when he does it. Just smile...it will release endorphins that will make you feel better

Edited August 30, 2006 by alanschu

[KotOR_rules2004]

You guys are right. He is a fool, and clearly doesn't know what the hell a RPG is. But...the one thing that I don't understand is why a RPG can fall under many different terms or genres. I guess I am just getting hung up on the fact that the title says it all, ROLE. PLAYING. GAME. But, as you two said, it is time to just sit back and recognize he man for what he is: ignorant and closed minded.

 

Thanks for the help, counceling, advice, what ever it was it is cooling me out.

[alanschu]

I made a big post that could lead you to having fun with him. Don't miss it!

 

 

As for RPG? I personally think that it's the heavy stat-based gameplay that seems so common in these games that cause people to call them all RPGs.

 

If there's numbers to be crunched, then people will tend to call it an RPG IMO.

[KotOR_rules2004]

Believe me, I didn't miss it and when I pick up NWN 2 I am gonna have a field day! Once again, thanks alot I really appreciate finally understanding how to deal with this turd nugget (yeah, I said it!).

 

As for the forum topic, well that seems to have gone slightly out the window. True tho, if someone sees numbers floating over an enemies head they say RPG. Speaking of ROGs I think I'm gonna go play WoW. I swear, RP servers in that game are the best thing ever! People actualy care about the story of WCII and III and where it's going, and it is the closest thing to a pen and paper game that doesn't bore me. Well, I dunno, NWN online is actually the closest, but WoW is close because of the people around you. If you play come check me out. I am on Emerald Dream, I have 3 characters there. Revaan (60 Shaman) Mallac (20 Warlock) and Kanderus (10 Rogue). You will more than likely see me either raiding with my 60 or leveling my Warlock...the Rogue is just sort of a "If I am really bored" character.

Edited August 30, 2006 by KotOR_rules2004

[alanschu]

It doesn't even really need to be numbers over the head.

 

But rather the ability to get info on the characters and seeing attributes like strength/attack power/mana/hp and so on.

 

Though now that you mention it, many RPGs seem to have the numbers floating over people's heads as well.

[BicycleOfDeath]

They're all Stat Based actions/strategy games that try to make you read a lot.

[Llyranor]

A RPG is whatever Hades wants it to be.

[alanschu]

Excellent point!

 

 

The only person that could supercede this would naturally be Zizou!

Edited August 30, 2006 by alanschu

[metadigital]

You forgot "turn-based" and the fact that they don't rely on player skills (like reflexes), merely on the characters skills.

[Judge Hades]

Well, that is how I define a Role Playing game. It is a game where you create a character involving a rules set that uniformly applied throughout the game which uses the character's abilities and skills and not the player's.

 

Action RPGs, and there are a good bunch of them, is like above but uses the player's skill when it comes to combat and other action sequences in gameplay.

[Hurlshort]

Well, RPG's tend to be games where characters develop over time. In every other genre, you start out fully powered. Your personal skill might improve, but the actual character is not improving. Of course there are grey areas.