Starforge or Death Star

[alanschu]

I'm not. I'm just showing you that the Death Star wasn't destroyed just because of a few fighters.

 

Certainly doesn't explain the first one, which was destroyed by fighters.

 

And it doesn't discount that the second one was still destroyed by small fighters. And Palpatine's presence didn't seem to make a difference, as the Rebels certainly weren't getting crushed by the Empire before Palpatine's death.

 

And the Star Forge's destruction required people to crash into a nearby planet, disable its field generator, take off, land on the Star Forge, and infilitrate its defenses from the inside.

 

And please explain how would the pilots of these fighters would know about the exhaust port in the first place...? Or how they would need to shoot it...

 

Hey, who's to say they wouldn't figure it out too? It's not like the Rebels were the only ones smart with spies.

 

Then explain how a small Republic Fleet was able to hold out aganist their "infinite production capibilities" for clearly more then 14 minutes.

 

The same reason why a small Rebel fleet was able to hold out against the bulk of the Imperial Navy (as well as their Death Star). Oh wait, since you were playing the Palpatine card, I'm going to play the Malak card. He was a buffoon worrying about Revan at the time, using the resources of the Star Forge to attack Revan. Put Revan (or even a half-wit) in charge of the Star Forge!!!

 

Then I guess we can also add torpedo launcher onto TIE Fighters, right?

 

The comment was made in acknowledgement of your good point. Besides, according to the game TIE Fighter, that's already possible.

Edited September 1, 2006 by alanschu

[Calax]

Alan... wouldn't the DS2 be completed for this fight?

[alanschu]

What would the DS II completion be like?

 

It looks like it's already pretty completed (and according to Palpatine, it is fully operational), so what's missing?

[thepixiesrock]

They didn't ask about the Death Star 2. The only options for this poll are Starforge and Death Star.

[Wild Storm]

Hey, who's to say they wouldn't figure it out too? It's not like the Rebels were the only ones smart with spies.

Then I guess I could say that the Imps had spies and crash landed and deactivated the field generator.

 

The same reason why a small Rebel fleet was able to hold out against the bulk of the Imperial Navy (as well as their Death Star). Oh wait, since you were playing the Palpatine card, I'm going to play the Malak card. He was a buffoon worrying about Revan at the time, using the resources of the Star Forge to attack Revan. Put Revan (or even a half-wit) in charge of the Star Forge!!!

I'm not playing the Palpatine card. We're talking about a fight where it's simply raw power. A giant planet destroying laser would send the Forge back into the sun. This has gone far too off into Fleets...

[alanschu]

Then I guess I could say that the Imps had spies and crash landed and deactivated the field generator.

 

Except that the port hole is something that could actually be discovered while in combat. Sensors were able to pick it up. Given law of averages, I'm betting someone would consider the idea of maybe shooting it could do something.

 

 

I'm not playing the Palpatine card. We're talking about a fight where it's simply raw power. A giant planet destroying laser would send the Forge back into the sun. This has gone far too off into Fleets...

 

Yeah you did. You straight up said that the only reason (or at least a big reason) why the Rebels destroyed the second Death Star was because Palpatine died and it made the Empire fight less effectively.

 

You even quoted Thrawn!

 

The first time, the pilot was the son of the Chosen One. The second time, Palpatine had just been thrown into a giant reactor and so his meddling in the battle had worn off and the backlash had an effect over the entire Navy and as such, they basically lost the drive to continue the fight.

 

"

Edited September 1, 2006 by alanschu

[Wild Storm]

Except that the port hole is something that could actually be discovered while in combat. Sensors were able to pick it up. Given law of averages, I'm betting someone would consider the idea of maybe shooting it could do something.

Only thing is that they didn't have anything to shoot down it...

 

 

Yeah you did. You straight up said that the only reason (or at least a big reason) why the Rebels destroyed the second Death Star was because Palpatine died and it made the Empire fight less effectively.

I was simply rebutting your arguement that if a bunch of Rebel fighters could destroy it, so could the Infinite Fleet. Yes, true. Infinite Fleet would be able to destroy the Death Star but remember the time? Would they be able to do it before the Death Star blasted the Star Forge? I don't think so.

 

And how good are Star Forge fighters and capital ships? It's pratically arrow versus bullet.

Edited September 1, 2006 by Wild Storm

[alanschu]

Only thing is that they didn't have anything to shoot down it...

 

Acknowledged. Unless the capital ships had something, or there's another ship that we weren't aware of.

 

 

And how good are Star Forge fighters and capital ships? It's pratically arrow versus bullet.

 

They didn't seem any worse than the fighters and capital ships in the time of the Death Star.

 

 

Though if you're acknowledging that the Infinite Fleet could still destroy the Death Star, then aren't we talking a draw here?

 

 

Also, an advantage that the Star Forge has would be that it could more effectively wage war elsewhere than the Star Forge's location.

Edited September 1, 2006 by alanschu

[Wild Storm]

They didn't seem any worse than the fighters and capital ships in the time of the Death Star.

We're talking about 4000 years difference of technology.

Though if you're acknowledging that the Infinite Fleet could still destroy the Death Star, then aren't we talking a draw here?

Perhaps. But the only reason why the Death Star would win definitly is because of that super-laser.

[alanschu]

We're talking about 4000 years difference of technology.

 

I'm just going by what I'm seeing in the games. None of the weaponry in the KOTOR timeline seems any different than the weaponry of the movies. You have your blasters, you have your lightsabers, and so on.

 

I think it's also a fallacy to assume that technology will always be advancing forward at an exponential rate. There are theoretical limits, as the galaxy itself is finite in its composition (eventually not going to find new materials...at least not stable ones). You can't keep miniaturizing microprocessors today, because you can't have a transistor made up of a single atom. And you can't keep pushing things faster, which is why we're making a switch to parallel processing now.

 

Hyperspace technology in the Star Wars Universe has been around for what, 25,000 years? It doesn't seem to have changed much. Ships still enter hyperspace to travel long distances. There certainly doesn't seem to be much difference in how it works in KOTOR and the movies.

 

 

Not to mention that things seem to be on the downside with the fall of the Republic. Not unlike the fall of the Roman Empire, which lead to technological regression in Europe.

 

 

What significant differences exist between shield, laser, and propulsion technology between KOTOR and the movies?

[Darth_Onivega]

Death Star II would pwn them both.

[alanschu]

Why?

[Dark_Raven]

I would say Rakatan technology was/is superior over the technology when the Death Star was built. The Star Forge created ships, droids from the energy it got from that dwarf star. It was close to that star, when the gravitational forces should have crushed it.

[thepixiesrock]

Well, you can't make any sort of argument from the fact that it wasn't affected by the gravity of that star. Our physics doesn't make a cameo apearance in the Star Wars universe.

[alanschu]

Besides, the gravity likely wouldn't crush it anyways. It's a white dwarf, which means it's not exceeding 1.4 times the mass of our sun.

 

Gravity will probably do what it does to most things that don't go flying towards the center of the star....cause it to orbit.

Edited September 2, 2006 by alanschu

[Sharks9]

If a bunch of rebels can destroy the Death start an entire fleet of ships coming out of the Star Forge would own the Death Star

[Wild Storm]

If a bunch of rebels can destroy the Death start an entire fleet of ships coming out of the Star Forge would own the Death Star

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anyone else think that people shouldn't be allowed to post until they've read all the posts?

[alanschu]

Then explain how a small Republic Fleet was able to hold out aganist their "infinite production capibilities" for clearly more then 14 minutes.

 

"Small Republic Fleet?"

 

Wasn't it the bulk of the Republic Navy? It's been a while since I played KOTOR 1.

[Dark_Raven]

I thought it was the entire force.

[Calax]

What would the DS II completion be like?

 

It looks like it's already pretty completed (and according to Palpatine, it is fully operational), so what's missing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what you mean other than the fact that if the thing was completed those holes the rebels used would be closed? The entire reason they attacked at the time they did was because they had to kill it before it was completed so they had a shot at destroying it without having to nibble away at it with more ships than you can count....

[alanschu]

So it's completion would have marked a battlestation with zero weaknesses.

 

Just like the first Death Star?

 

 

 

IIRC the main reason why they attacked it when they did is because they found out about it, and it'd probably make the most sense to destroy it when it wasn't operational and couldn't really defend itself.

 

Heck, the uber leader Ackbar was ready to call it quits the second he saw the thing shoot.

 

 

 

It doesn't mean it was going to be invincible. Even the Bismarck was able to be damaged to the point where it was useless, and all it did was sink the Hood. But do you think the British would have skimped on an opportunity where they thought they could get it even easier?

Edited September 2, 2006 by alanschu

[alanschu]

How could the DS shoot?

 

The Rakata home world orbited the sun to which the Star Forge was linked. On this planet the Rakata built a temple that housed a generator for a defensive field around the Star Forge. The field disrupted any electronic equipment that approached the Star Forge, causing ships to be caught in the gravitational field of the Rakatan planet. The Unknown World, as it was called, was littered with the wreckage of thousands of years of ships unlucky enough to stumble upon the Star Forge

 

http://www.starwars.com/databank/technolog...orge/index.html

[Calax]

So it's completion would have marked a battlestation with zero weaknesses.

 

Just like the first Death Star?

Bevel Lemsic was... diciplined by the emperor for the oversight of the exhaust tube... it was removed from the second Death Star's design.

 

IIRC the main reason why they attacked it when they did is because they found out about it, and it'd probably make the most sense to destroy it when it wasn't operational and couldn't really defend itself.

 

Heck, the uber leader Ackbar was ready to call it quits the second he saw the thing shoot.

Not entirly sure but from what I can tell they picked the date of the attack for three reasons... One: they knew where it was being built Two: it was close to completion, at that point it would be insane to try to hit the station again because of the amount of causalties it would cause, Three: The Emperor was there.

 

It doesn't mean it was going to be invincible.  Even the Bismarck was able to be damaged to the point where it was useless, and all it did was sink the Hood.  But do you think the British would have skimped on an opportunity where they thought they could get it even easier?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the term Phyrric victory comes to mind when looking at the resourses needed to knock the death star out of commission.

 

And the little thing you quoted talks about it being the energy field from the local planet that wreaks havoc with electronics and equipment... so are we also going to count the endor shield?

[alanschu]

Sure, you can count the Endor Shield. The problem is, the Star Forge doesn't orbit Endor, and it isn't moving anywhere.

 

For the Death Star to attack the Star Forge, the Death Star would have to come to it. If not, it'd still have to deal with the infinite fleet the Star Forge can create. I don't know if the Endor Shield could still withstand the firepower indefinitely. And I doubt the Endor shield generator is generating a shield around the Death Star from across the galaxy.

Edited September 2, 2006 by alanschu

[Calax]

eh... just use centerpoint station and kill em both.