"Wouldn't that mean that everything except biographies and pure documentaries is fantasy?"

 

Yes. Pretty much. People created genres for easier classification. Really, we could have a single fiction category. That doesn't really work well in reality, however, and so we have separated works of fiction into smaller categories. Specialists in any particular field will take these categories and separate them even further.

 

There are different views on this, but I believe that most categories are based more on setting than on individual elements. This is actually how most bookstores work as well. It's imperfect since there are books with clearly fantastic elements that end up in the straight fiction area or fantasy books that end up in science fiction. Star Wars is a classic example that causes the science fiction snob with a better analytical approach to rend his shirt and gnash his teeth. Overall, however, it works as well as anything else.

 

In what category would most folks include something like Xmen? How is it billed to the public? Science fiction? Fantasy? Comic fiction? How do we handle overlapping genres? According to Hades and his patented analytical approach, any (ANY?) supernatural element places a work in the fantasy category? Hell, there are science fiction classics that would end up in fantasy if we did that.

Fantasy, in the context Darque used it, meant swords, dragons, knights, mages, and that sort of thing. You all know that. This is meaningless debate over a topic that didn't exist until Hades morphed it into another little mind game.

 

Eldar is right. This is not a matter of opinion, it's all fact. Fantasy, as its come to be known, is a single genre. Science Fiction is a single genre. Horror, regardless of its base elements, is still horror.

 

God, argue about something that at least seems worthwhile would ya? Maybe how to solve world hunger, or how to synthesize water or something? At least the illusion of having something that isn't so freakin' inane would be nice.

I hated Morrowind but I had a fun time with Oblivion until it just became to repetitive. I think the developers of the Gothic series wanted to make Oblivion, but failed in that the had neither the time, money or the experience to do so successfully.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The topic has already turned but I think this is way off base. You're some sort of game development student, aren't you? You honestly believe these two games have similar underlying philiosophies but Gothic failed? Explain.

"Wouldn't that mean that everything except biographies and pure documentaries is fantasy?"

 

False. Lots of fiction is non fantasy. However, games/settings delaing with stuff like werewolves and vampires are fantasy. This is a fact. By their very existcne, it's fantasy. Sure, it can be crossed over into horror; but it's still very much fantasy.

 

Buffy the Vampire Slayer may be set in the 'real world'; but it is no doubt a fantasy setting. So, is BL despite its modern setting.

 

You can make a horror without it being a fantasy. Saw, and Scream are good examples of this.

 

 

Examples if fiction that is NOT fantasy is easy to find. These include things tons of tv shows (the majority of sitcoms ala Friends, Mash, and the like), most drama shows like NYPD Blue, and a host of others. Various novels, and movies fit this as well.

 

Wher eid this idea that fantasy was just another word for viction? It isn't. Fantasy, by defintion, includes anything that doesn't exist or is IMPOSSIBLE to exist in the real world.

 

That's why Star Wars is not really Science Fiction. It's Space Fantasy.

 

So, spin it all you want. These are the FACTS.

 

 

As for Gothic 2... I shall wait for Gothic 3.... that is all...

 

 

 

"God, argue about something that at least seems worthwhile would ya? Maybe how to solve world hunger, or how to synthesize water or something? At least the illusion of having something that isn't so freakin' inane would be nice."

 

Hilarious comment from someone who was arguing about it. Haha!

Edited June 17, 200619 yr by Volourn

It always amazes me that Vol doesn't irritate me as much as Hades. I wonder why. After all, he's such an <EDIT> likeable <END EDIT> fellow. :Eldar's shaking his head with bemusement while handing Vol a fresh beer, which Eldar will gladly drink if Vol doesn't drink alcohol, icon:

 

Anyhow, there are no facts. These are all categories. We can change the criteria for the categories all we want, but I don't know why I should use the Volourn/Hades category spread instead of the familiar ones in use already.

 

Now, Vol says, "[f]antasy, by defintion, includes anything that doesn't exist or is IMPOSSIBLE to exist in the real world."

 

So, Star Wars is IMPOSSIBLE while Star Trek is POSSIBLE? How about resurrection? At one point, that was considered absolutely IMPOSSIBLE, but there are several cases of someone being brougth back to life. Now, Frankenstein is considered classic literature, but it involves bringing some poor bastard back to life using other folks' parts. That's clearly fantastic, deserves to be placed in the horror category, and yet it is a classic work. Moreover, it seems it is POSSIBLE to bring folks back to life and to take the organs from one person and put them in another person. Should Frankenstein be considered Fantasy? Science Fiction? Horror? Or a literary Classic?

 

Frankly, Star Trek's social moddel is absolutely nuts. I think that's an example of fantasy if I've ever seen one. How about this, though, there was an episode of Star Trek in which Kirk and Spock and co. went to a world where the Roman empire lasted into what would be, for us, the modern age. There was a group of rebels who worshipped the "Sun" god. Only at the end did someone point out that the group who was in the process of toppling the Roman Empire in this new world didn't worship the "Sun" god, but the "Son" god. Dum dum DUM!

 

Even if we discount the clear examples of explicit religious or quasi-supernatural material in the series, there's still the fact that many episodes presented creatures or conditions that are clearly fantastic and IMPOSSIBLE from any current scientific standpoint.

 

When I say that setting is the benchmark for placing a work into a genre, it's not an argument. It's one of the few real FACTS... YES, FACTS I TELL YOU!!!!... in this discussion. :Eldar's having loads of fun icon:

 

So, you guys might want to decide what constitutes a genre, but it's already been done. The only thing you can hope is that you guys can convince a sufficient number of people to change the established categories. Good luck. It can happen. It has happened. I doubt you'll do it anyhow.

 

As for the whole fiction/fantasy thing.

 

Clearly, all fantasy is fiction. Not all fiction is fantasy. So, everything fictitious falls into the category of fiction, but that category is too broad and so we must separate the works of fiction into smaller chunks. Otherwise, we have to muddle through stuff like Legacy of the Drow to get to Crime and Punishment. So, my point wasn't that all fiction is fantasy. My point is that we can make the category as broad as we want by saying that anything that does not exist in reality at this moment is, indeed, fantastic. ...But that's not the case.

 

In regards to Bloodlines, I can see it going in either the fantasy or the horror genre. Maybe both, if we wanted to cross-reference it. The one off vampire doesn't make it fantasy. It's established that some works that present vampires or ghosts or whatnot are not classified as fantasy. However, Bloodlines sports a number of fantastic creatures, mages, magic, and a whole slew of other fantastic elements to the degree that someone may fairly call it fantasy. However, the setting, with monstrous creatures, a dark setting, a focus on the macabre, and a whole slew of other horrific elements may put the game into the horror category.

 

We love to create categories, we humans, but they invariably fall apart at some point. Just accept that categories are, ultimately, going to be arbitrary at some point. Well, I guess you can say that the category of live folks and dead folks is not arbitrary. Wait, wasn't he technically dead before they managed to bring him back to life. Damn that CPR!

"So, Star Wars is IMPOSSIBLE while Star Trek is POSSIBLE?"

 

How can I take your post seriously when you make things up? Please point to even one part of my post where I state that Star Trek is NOT fantasy.

 

I'd destroy the rest of your post as well; but since you are obviously adding things to my post that i never wrote there's no need.

 

I'll just end with this:

 

Fantasy, by defintion, includes anything that doesn't exist or is IMPOSSIBLE to exist in the real world.

 

 

Game over.

 

P.S. I drink alchohol maybe once a year.

Edited June 18, 200619 yr by Volourn

First of all, how can I trust you when you only imbibe once a year? Seriously!

 

...At any rate, I'm willing to leave it at what we've written. It's for the Gods of TOMBS to decide now. Either that or a bunch of drunk, stoned, or stupid nerds. Either way, I'm happy.

Good gods man, once a year?

 

Any way that Gothic 2 is a swell game is it not?

 

I find the other conversation here interesting, perhaps you two gentlemen can start a new thread?

I consider Buffy and Angel as fantasy. Horror can be a subgenre of Fantasy, if the horror aspects are caused by supernatural entities such as vampires, ghosts, and the like or a subgenre of drama if the horror comes from a more mundane source such as man's inhumanity to man.

Before the thread gets canned, I'd like to say to Hades: "I love you maaaan!" I'm not confined to once a year drinking, by the way.

 

As for Gothic. I've never played it. I might think about grabbing it, though.

 

Okie dokie.

I consider Buffy and Angel as fantasy.  Horror can be a subgenre of Fantasy, if the horror aspects are caused by supernatural entities such as vampires, ghosts, and the like or a subgenre of drama if the horror comes from a more mundane source such as man's inhumanity to man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Excellent points!

Good Lord, Hades spouts drivel and someone actually buys into it? hahaha

 

Well, you three can form the an unholy triumvirate and work to change the categories that have existed in more or less the same way your entire lives.

 

You notice that the whole notion is to place horror as a subgenre of either fantasy or drama.

 

Hey, are you guys all pulling my leg or do you really believe this stuff? Maybe Hades is doing one of his "stirring the pot" things again.

 

I tell you what, I'll let you guys get the last word. Actually, I'm more than happy to let you take the final shot and we'll see if you manage to convince the world that we should follow your new and improved more analytical approach. hahaha

 

At that point, I'll concede that I've been bested by my intellectual betters.

 

EDIT: ...But I'm not really angry about it. I do think it's a bit silly, so I can't help but make fun of you guys, but I'm not really hostile.

Edited June 18, 200619 yr by Eldar

"You notice that the whole notion is to place horror as a subgenre of either fantasy or drama."

 

What you talkin' about, Willis? I already gave examples of horror movies that aren't fantasy. Tsk, tsk.

 

Once again: Fantasy, by defintion, includes anything that doesn't exist or is IMPOSSIBLE to exist in the real world.

Does that make you fantasy? I can't imagine a Volourn existing in the really real world :p :D

At the very least, drink some beer twice a year. Actually, for a serious moment, I don't want to encourage folks to drink if they don't already. it's really not very healthy.

Drinking's bad, it destroys braincells or so I hear.

Meh, for what it's worth, I typically go years between alcoholic drinks. Though I did have a bit more when I was in the Dominican Republic.

LOL @ the LARP Gothic players!

What?

I'd actually love to see Todd Howard and Co. getting company by those nice gentlemen from Jowood.

 

"Hi, I'm Todd, and Oblivion is the coolest..."

"SHUT the Fuack up female and get me some more drink! HHAHARAR"

 

Hehe, sorry but I couldn't resist....  :">

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wut?

 

Yes, the link.

Edited June 18, 200619 yr by Shadowstrider

Apparently I missed that post.......

 

 

Wow!

"Does that make you fantasy? I can't imagine a Volourn existing in the really real world"

 

You win.

 

 

The only reason why I don't drink lots is - awaits the laughter - I prefer the taste of pop to booze. I have enver bought any type booze; but don't always refsue it when offered - at weddings or parties usually; but never more than one or twod rinks max.

 

I'm all for people boozing it up if they wish. It don't effect me until they intervere with my enjoying (or others') life.

I actually prefer the drink of most non-alcoholic drinks as well.

 

I believe Kaftan called me immature for having this stance.

I actually prefer not drinking at all. It keeps me out of the gutter.